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just wondering if anyone has any tips or suggestions on tactica on how to win with orks against blood angle drop pod block, space wolves, space wolf missile spam lists. the marine players in my local metta are really hard to beat in tournaments let alone any day of the week.

When you shake their hand before a game headbutt them in the nose with all your strength.

idk if that will get me 1st place but ill do it and see what happens.

Gorka Morka

Ya got to be Kunningly Brutal and Brutally Kunnin'

There is a few taticas on the site I believe. But good synergy is key in my experience as in go all fast or all foot sloggin for the most part. When you hit someone hit them with a few things not one unit. Also when list building use more than one of each unit as they will get shot a lot and getting the opponent to divert fire is your best friend.

drop pod block is easy. Green tide, they drop in, you charge and tear em a new one.

Missile spam, battlewagon/kan wall list.

Devestators? KFF is a necessity. Give your vehicles that added 4+ save that will infuriate your SM player. Should be able to allow you to get several trukk boyz into da scrap.

Grotzooka Kans a are a great way of dealing with a post-deepstrike marine blob - as might the Killkannon, but that's a pricey piece of wargear that's going to scatter an average of 5".

If you get the blood talon dread, toss your walker/kans into it - the blood talon has no effect on them (since it only triggers after causing a *wound*).

20-ish large mobz of shoota boyz are hard to take out with any infantry, save the lightning claw terminators. If it's anything else, mob 'em. Remember though, ALWAYS GET THE CHARGE - NEVER BE CHARGED. As amazing as orks are on the charge, they crumple when they are charged.

Lootas shouid help you to pick off opponent devestators, and help you deal with any AV10-12.

Landraiders? Deffrolla 'em.

So, what models do you actually own?
How much are you willing to spend to meet a tactic we advice?
What point levels?

Without that kind of information, the headbut is probably the best advice you will get. Just remember to yell "WAAAGH!" at the top of your lunges while doing so.

Headbut me at the store man and I will switch to GK :p

i have 9 kans, a deff dread, 3 battlewagons, 3 mobs of boyz 20 strong with a PK nob in each, 10 nobs with a scorcha kombi and a waaagh banner and 2 of them have PKs of which can changed around if necessary, a scrath built pain boy, a full mob of kommandos with 2 rokkits with snikrot, big meck with KFF, black reach warbosswith PK and shoota/twin linked shoota, Ghazghkull, 18 lootas(going to get more to run them in mobs of 11), 6 deff koptas,
the tournament comming up is at 2000pt lvl. and all i really have left is to get 4 more lootas and the deff rollas for my battlewagons. the deff rollas hopefully will get to the shop before the tournament.

Gutstuf Ugfang wrote:just wondering if anyone has any tips or suggestions on tactica on how to win with orks against blood angle drop pod block, space wolves, space wolf missile spam lists. the marine players in my local metta are really hard to beat in tournaments let alone any day of the week.

Kan Walls and You
Kan Walls don't work at 2k points. Your going to run across far to many GK or SW lists with 20+ STR 7-8 shots. 9 kans, even with a KFF just get tore apart to easily. The reason is because of wound allocation. A venerable psydread is going to land 4 STR 8 shots a turn, half of which you will get past obscurement.
At 1500 points or less Kans can work well, but at higher levels they can just fall short.

Foot Lists
As most lists today are shooting lists, a foot list army can do really well. This is because your opponent cannot bring enough shooting to take down 120+ 6 point orks. Sadly, you don't have the models to pull this off.

BattleWagons
BW lists I think have to be different in today's meta. You can't just charge the SW/BA/GK player, as you expose the AV12 sides to easily on a wagon. AV 14 at range can be a real pain to crack, but AV 12 opens up like a girls dress on prom night. As such, I think the traditional BW list needs to be altered to be really effective.

This is what I would bring in a BW list
* Snikrot and krew. They have advantages to the ork game that far supass this post.
* Wierdboy with warphead. Yes, I know. Read the strategy below.
* 15 lootas in a BW. These i think will be your bread and butter. In fact, I would suggest building 3 squads of them.
* Boys on foot around the wagons. This prevents deep strikers, scarabs, or wolf scouts from melta'ing your BW. Use 30 boys per squad. I would bring at least 3 such squads.
* KFF big mek.
* 10 nobs. You might as well have an excellent counter assault unit, and these guys can do the trick.
If you can custom make a few more lootas, I would make another 23 of them. Luckly you can custom make anything in orks, so just ask your IG friend for some AC parts, LC parts, or really any heavy weapon and stick em on shoota boys. Another idea are hurrican boltesr. You can chop one set of hurricane bolters up to make 12 loota guns. As people bring redeemers, your C:SM friends might have an extra one.
Ta-Da! Instant Loota! I also use sites like hoard_o_bits to get me lots of bits.

Strategy
The strategy would be to sit back and shoot at your opponent with 45 lootas. Trick out your wagons with a bunch of big shootas/kannon/rockets to. Your goal is to rack up a few KPs. Your boys are pretty much immune to shooting, and your wagons are hard to destroy. It will take 3 psydreads to get an average of 1 glancing hit on your BWs, so you on average get a lot of shooting done, and should be out-shoot your enemies at range.

Use the 4 big shootas per wagon + kannon to clear out SW long fangs. Long fangs only have a 3+ save, and enough STR 5 shots will kill em.

This means that your opponent will be forced to move in and address you with their melta or short range shooting. This means they need to get by your boys, which is not something they really want to do. Just sit in cover and it will be hard to shift you due to shooting. If they get to close, you can assault if you think you will win -- but most players don't want to get in assault range of orks.

If he sits back and tries to out-shoot you, then you have already won the game. Just be wary of outflankers or him trying to shift around you. You can use your blobs of boys to help achieve this goal. The reason you have won is that you can take down his transports really quickly with your lootas, and then he has a hard time taking objectives. If your playing KPs, he has a long way to go to get ahead in KPs, as you have no KPs are are easy to get. You have either 30 boys in a squad, or you have a AV 14 shell holidng lootas.

On turn four, start trying for the warphead ability to teleport. Use this to port a squad of boys either onto an additional objective in sieze ground, or in a position to threaten his objective in capture and control. If you perfer, you can use a warboss to help boost the squad and just run to the objective, but I would perfer the suprise of the port.
Before turn 4, just go for the auto-hit shooting.

Snikrot, of course, is used to contest objectives or take down enemy artilly or transports. Snikrot is great all around.

I really like the ideas here but you can't take snikrot and 3 sets of lootas.

I have been thinking how to make this more well rounded. If you reduced the boyz in a mob to 19 (with nob) you can take them in the battlewagon for fights where you are outgunned (IG, Tau, etc) and need to close to melee. It makes the boyz mobs more vulnerable, hurting your idea of KP denial, but it would give you options against some other lists.

I am thinking the following

Big Mek w/KFF

3x 15 lootas
3x 18 boyz + Nob PK/BP
3x BW w/deffrolla, 1+ big shoota

With 1 big shoota on each this central list runs 1567 points (1612 with 4 Big Shootas)

This leaves about 400 points to play with. For a 2000 point list you can fit in:

Warboss w/PK, cybork

5 Nobz:
Painboy
PK, BP, waagh banner
PK
BC, combi rokkit
BC

All in another battlewagon w/deffrolla, big shoota

There are probably other options but you become limited with the elites and heavys already filled. Maybe large groups of deff koptas to infiltrate which assists against some of the heavy shooting lists. I would welcome any thoughts.

Labmouse, just asking here, but you are playing 5th edition right? Also, what metta do play in?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Remiele wrote:I really like the ideas here but you can't take snikrot and 3 sets of lootas.

I have been thinking how to make this more well rounded. If you reduced the boyz in a mob to 19 (with nob) you can take them in the battlewagon for fights where you are outgunned (IG, Tau, etc) and need to close to melee. It makes the boyz mobs more vulnerable, hurting your idea of KP denial, but it would give you options against some other lists.

I am thinking the following

Big Mek w/KFF

3x 15 lootas
3x 18 boyz + Nob PK/BP
3x BW w/deffrolla, 1+ big shoota

With 1 big shoota on each this central list runs 1567 points (1612 with 4 Big Shootas)

This leaves about 400 points to play with. For a 2000 point list you can fit in:

Warboss w/PK, cybork

5 Nobz:
Painboy
PK, BP, waagh banner
PK
BC, combi rokkit
BC

All in another battlewagon w/deffrolla, big shoota

There are probably other options but you become limited with the elites and heavys already filled. Maybe large groups of deff koptas to infiltrate which assists against some of the heavy shooting lists. I would welcome any thoughts.

Basically what you listed is very similar to what the list that I have currently built, that I have Im comfortable with. Im running a Warboss, Big Mek KFF, 2 mobs of lootas, 2 deff rolla battle wagons, medium mob of nobs that arent gear heavy, 3 mobs of boyz 20 strong with one of the boyz upgraded to a PK nob, 6 kans, a deff dread, and snikrot + full kommando with 2 rokkits to throw someone off and to try and pull the opponent's attention away and make him focus on Snikrot and crew. I do have a third battlewagon I can swop out for Snikrot n' crew and have 100ish pts to play with; which would in turn do what you said, "to close to melee."

Kan wall is excellent i played with 6 at 1500pts against a GK player who was using 3 land raiders and a storm raven it took him 4 turns to take out 4 of them he was so focused on the kans he completely forgot to take objectives and i managed to win

well that GK player's first mistake was 3 land raiders at 1500, second was target priority, and third was that they weren't playing the missions.
taking 3 land raiders is such a point sink. 1 is huge target, 2 is great, 3 is a waist of points.
dude if the GK was having trouble taking out your armor 11 kans into turn 4 they must have been rolling terribly.

I think i was rolling quiet well to be honest it was rather funny watching him get annoyed at all the 4+ i kept rolling bu the dice gods giveth and they taketh away

Gutstuf Ugfang wrote:Labmouse, just asking here, but you are playing 5th edition right? Also, what metta do play in?

One with 30% GK players, whose psydreads and stormravens tear up AV 12 sides on battlewagons. They also have purifiers who don't care if 20 orks assault them.
I play in a meta where nearly everyone brings shooty armies. This is because 5th edition is a better game for shooting than assault.
I also play in a meta where your finding more tournaments playing with all 3 book missions in play in the same game.

So how can you play the game to win in todays' meta? Ork tactics need to change.
Kan walls don't work anymore at high point levels. Psydreads, long fangs, and wraiths will demolish them.
Traditional BW lists just fail vs GK purifiers. Having such an easy popular counter to your army is the kiss of death. You can't go to a tourney and expect to lose between 20%-30% of your games due to poor matchup off the bat. (well, i guess you can, but its not smart)
There is a reason you don't see orks at top tables -- as the traditional 'accepted' tactics no longer work and trying them will result in losing to newer codex's given equal general skill. As such, new tactics should be discussed. It would be different if GK were as commonly played at 'nids, but they are by far the most popular army right now.

My suggestions of lootas in BWs help to address the problems that orks have. It gives the lootas protection, which is critical as they can be dislodged easily by psydreads if they are on foot. With a LD of 7, its not hard to force them to run. It also addresses the problem that BWs have, which is long vulnerable sides. That AV 14 is great, but open topped AV 12 just does not cut it when your facing 20+ STR 8 shots.
I acknowledge I'm not the pinnacle of 40k wisdom, but I do try and think outside the box.

Don't get me wrong, if your winning all the time with the classic list, then don't change a thing
Today though your not seeing orks doing well in tournaments for a reason. I think that orks have what it takes to do well in today's meta, but with a different playstyle.

At a tourney a couple of weeks back drop pod BA got massacred by a good green tide with kannons list, they just had nowhere to go where they wouldn't be decimated in the next turn

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:At a tourney a couple of weeks back drop pod BA got massacred by a good green tide with kannons list, they just had nowhere to go where they wouldn't be decimated in the next turn

In a game where people are shooting, green tide lists can be very effective right? Who cares if that psydread kills a 6 point ork? Not many people want to get up close and personal to them. With snikrot it makes it easy to tie/win on objectives. KPs are pretty easy when your army consists of 7-9 KPs that are all hard to get. (a hard to get KP is defined as killing 30 boys, vs killing 1 truuk, which is an easy KP)

The thing is that ork army needs the ability to do some damage at range. You need to stop the purifiers before they get to you and clense your army off the board.
Whats the best way to to do that?

labmouse42 wrote:The thing is that ork army needs the ability to do some damage at range. You need to stop the purifiers before they get to you and clense your army off the board.
Whats the best way to to do that?

"Crush 'em with Da Deff Rolla!"

A good unit of Nobs or MegaNobs (preferably with a Warboss). Cleansing Flame becomes a lot less effective against these.

Ork shooting isn't great at the best of times, you'll have a couple of turns at most, and will probably have to pop a transport in that time. Trying to stay clear of them gives your opponent the advantage, Orks are not sheep for herding! Get your best Nobs and hunt them down, Purifiers rarely hide.

Id try flash gitz and kanz with kmb and rokkits the gitz are expensive but watching a purifier squad drown in str6 ap1 fire would warm any ork players heart shove em in a bw with a kff mek and youve got a 36 inch str6 assault 2 wepons with a potential of ap1 2 or 3 shots attach a killkannon or deffrolla and its gonna get nasty however this would be insanely expensive

Use your boys to tarpit them while your heavier strength weapons take out the harder guys. just play smart so you ALWAYS get the charge off.

Thats what Ive been doing and it looks like thats how its going to be. And, yeah, when that Assault "tempo" works right, its awesome.

As far as Orks vs GK or any "lol rape" spam shooting army it would be counter productive to sit back and shoot it out as Orks. You have to close the distance with everything you have that you need to close with. Even if you have a Green Tide list youre slogging across the map for multiple turns, maybe 2 if youre lucky and youre not going to have enough anti armor.

labmouse42 wrote:
If you can custom make a few more lootas, I would make another 23 of them. Luckly you can custom make anything in orks, so just ask your IG friend for some AC parts, LC parts, or really any heavy weapon and stick em on shoota boys. Another idea are hurrican boltesr. You can chop one set of hurricane bolters up to make 12 loota guns. As people bring redeemers, your C:SM friends might have an extra one.
Ta-Da! Instant Loota! I also use sites like hoard_o_bits to get me lots of bits.

labmouse42 I would be interested in seeing some pics of lootas with the hurricane bolters.

Personally I wouldn't exactly follow labmouse's battlewagon advice(all his other points are valid though). That might work if no one ever moves their army anywhere, but it's definitely harder to get sideshots on a moving battlewagon than on one that can't move wihout sacrificing 300 all it's shooting. You also have to concider barrage weapons(basically anything the IG would bring) destroying the entire parking lot, ten nobz being a waste of points, one in two psyflemen glancing with half of those preventing your lootaz from shooting, and lootaz struggling to take down MEQ at all. While gunline orks might be viable, I wouldn't rest all my hopes entirely on those lootaz. I would even go as far and completely drop the battlewagons to add kannons or boomguns for some shooting that can't be gotten much cheaper elsewhere. Both koptaz and buggies can bring more big shoota hits to the table than a battlewagon would for less points - and they are usually taken with rokkits for a reason.
I know from first hand experience that dakka wagons are a lot of fun and really pack a punch, but once your opponents have found their weakness, they are not going to do anything good ever again, similar to unit of five koptaz.

As for the argument against traditional battlewagon bashes: You can easily prevent your opponent from hitting your side armor, even if you sacrifice one battlewagon to do so. Due army composition, one bw tends to be less valuable than the other three anyways, so force your opponent to shoot that one. Especially grey knights can't easily stop battlewagons, and nobz (which are found in every true BW list at 2000) can take care of purifiers quite well, as can shoota boyz or burnaz by simply shooting them dead.
Deploying a refused flank against a GK basically take at least one dread out of the equation (the one you are driving at), and maybe another one that's deployed out of range.

The problem I see right now is you missing a fourth battlewagon which prevents you from using your heavy support slots to their full effect. Maybe you can borrow and artillery model from an IG player to field as boomwagon?
Other than that, I would suggest:
- You are already stretching your collection to get to 2000, so there is no reason to not bring Thrakka to the table. He can deal with things like purifiers all by himself. Put him in a different wagon than your Mek or the nobz, so your opponent actually has to decide whether he stops Thrakka, Nobz or the KFF.
- Don't field more than 7-8 nobz overkill is awesome, but doesn't get you anywhere. For the same reason, don't stick Thrakka with them.
- Not a staple for battlewagon bash, but as you are missing one wagon, you need more disruption. Snikrot and friends are the masters of disrupting your enemy.
- Keep in mind to leave room for thrakka and the big mek when filling their wagons with boyz.
- This leaves you with two slots for lootaz. Personally I would split them into units of 15 and 5 for leadership reasons, or if you follow labmouse's kitbashing advice go 15/15.
- If you still need more points, add koptaz with or without buzz saws a units of one. As above, if you can keep your opponent occupied with other things than shooting your battlewagons, that's better. Deff koptaz can even lock psyflemen in combat for a couple of turn, if you've got nothing better to do with them.

Thats pretty much the line of logic/tactics Ive been running with this whole time.

Jidmah, I dont claim to be the pinnacle of 40k knowledge. Im just thinking of ways to counter the current GK meta.

Some ideas may not be the best, but I think were coming up with some good ones in this thread.

Well others have come up with good ideas. You have to prepare for more than just the GK crowd. GK arent the only threat.

I would recomend looking up battle reports and tactica from Miniwargamer Dan, he runs a really solid Ork list and knows what to use and how to win with Orks, look him up on their site

I watched most of the ones for orks and wasnt too impressed. the video of the 1500pt Orks vs BA was, meh... the burnas in open top vehicles are a good idea and ive known about that one for awhile. Im very sure he could have brought a better list to the table than that. i dont agree with the looted wagons. i think kans/deff dreads would have done better, but the game was at 1500. base cost he's running 1381 with some possible ard boy armor somewhere. he could get a kan squad with grotzookas in there and get rid of a 2 stormboys. or could have gone with some other things that would have been more effective than the stormboys. theyre such a point sink in my opinoion. right now with the ork codex the way it is, is that "more" is better, because they dont get a lot of special rules or gear. the KFF, deff rollas, and the mob rule. the other ones are only one time use or only on half the time.

He plays orks how I would, Speed Freak style