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Just wondering. i know that the Tau allow any races that are usefull and willing to join them for "The Greater Good." so if you were a human renagade who became a Human "Firewarrior," and became a destinguished Soldier with the Tau, would it be possible for a Human to go up the Ranks in the Tau fire cast and oneday reach a position of command?

NO. They are auxiliaries. Even the Tau term means 'helper'. The Tau reserve command rank for themselves alone.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gue%27vesa
This has been a great resource for all things fluff.
Only fire caste can become fire warriors.
Humans and Xenos is the Tau empire can and do acheive postions of responsibilty.

Tun_Tau wrote:http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gue%27vesa
This has been a great resource for all things fluff.
Only fire caste can become fire warriors.
Humans and Xenos is the Tau empire can and do acheive postions of responsibilty.

Just remember GW didn't keep the old article where the link to Lexi is based upon, reducing reliability a lot.
Plus the same author ( Hoare ) wrote another story of the Damocles Gulf crusade more recently, in which there are no troops left...
so basically the company specializing in inconsistant fluff has moved on from the concept of humans as usable auxillaries to a different theme where the focus is on the xeno part.
"Human Tau empire soldiers" therefore existed once as part of the background. Nowadays those are either dropped concepts or just not important enough to write something about them. Or, retribution already found them...

I kinda like some of the Human Tau auxiliary trooper conversions I've seen, so as far as I'm concerned, they can and should stay in the fluff. The conversion aspect is one of the coolest things about the Tau army.

It would be cool if the book actually had rules for it, instead of having to make "Counts As" Firewarrior models.

But the implication was always that the non-Tau could only ever rise to positions of authority within their own communities. But this is nothing new. Ultimately, all Tau are confined to their caste. Firewarriors can only ever rise to power within the fire caste, Earth within the Earth Caste, etc. The auxiliaries are just a lower caste.

Tau are pretty racist from what I've read and only let members of the Tau race advance in the chain of command. Sure human auxiliary troopers can advance to small command roles in their own units but no further. But remember anyone who turns their back on the God Emperor is a dead man.

1hadhq is incorrect in this particular case, there is plenty of relatively current fluff that shows Tau "Gue'vesa" units, most clearly shown in the Imperial Armour book. A sad truth that the Tau commanders find themselves facing is that they prefer to direct human soldiers to other threats rather than have them take action against Imperial forces. Even if a world with a predominantly human population has been loyal to the Tau cause for generations, there is still that distrust and insecurity in Tau commanders when they force them to face their own species. To so much of an extent that they often do their best to relegate them to protecting supply lines and other less important roles rather than have them participate in pitched battles.

Against foes other than the Imperium though, human soldiers are treated like any other proper military unit, and there's little evidence to suggest they are any less equal than Fire Warriors in terms of status (if not technology).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't know how far up the command chain a non-Tau can rise. Despite the notions of equality that are preached I'd imagine not very far, seeing as every single Tau commander of note is of the Tau race. Then again, it's not like you'd know with those massive battlesuits.

Anyhow, here are some rules for the basic unit. I don't think there are more.
http://www.eastern-empire.com/downloads/guevesa.pdf

A non-Tau can attain a position of importance and respect in Tau society, the leaders of the Kroot certainly have this. However the Fire Caste is for native Tau's only.

Hazardous Harry wrote:1hadhq is incorrect in this particular case, there is plenty of relatively current fluff that shows Tau "Gue'vesa" units, most clearly shown in the Imperial Armour book.

Plenty, where and released when may I ask? Didn't remember any...

sure, back in the days of small lists from chapter approved ( last = CA 3 in 2003 ) Gue'vesa were 'official'.
But then, kroot had also thier own list to run from, GK not a codex but were highly specialized and rather an emergency force to support other forces, LotD not integrated into codex SM and death watch kill teams another possible add-on to existing armies. /

I'd also bet the IA you want to use as a source is one of the first 5, now those are not new or current...maybe they re-released them again as updated version compliant with current fluff, if so I wasn't aware of this.
The most recent releases about the Tau ( codex Tau Empire ) and the bitz of Tau fluff in rulebooks and expansions are not using the term 'Gue'vesa' , IIRC.

Hazardous Harry wrote:
Anyhow, here are some rules for the basic unit. I don't think there are more.
http://www.eastern-empire.com/downloads/guevesa.pdf

See? its chapter approved and I believe its wellknown CA isn't a product GW still considers to publish.
You can find those lists on the web. Obviously no link to a Gue'vesa list or article links to GW anymore. Don't you think this isn't an accidently lost part of the background but lost on purpose?

Not saying no one can use these IMO not so current parts of the background, but I'll suggest to keep your eyes open for change
as the course I guess they are running now could easily focus on other aspects of the Tau and if the loss of allies as concept tells us something, it is that a theme is their actual "bread and butter" in codex design, not a believable army.
Human soldiers aren't likely as part of the theme of the Tau in future codices.

1hadhq wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:1hadhq is incorrect in this particular case, there is plenty of relatively current fluff that shows Tau "Gue'vesa" units, most clearly shown in the Imperial Armour book.

Plenty, where and released when may I ask? Didn't remember any...

sure, back in the days of small lists from chapter approved ( last = CA 3 in 2003 ) Gue'vesa were 'official'.
But then, kroot had also thier own list to run from, GK not a codex but were highly specialized and rather an emergency force to support other forces, LotD not integrated into codex SM and death watch kill teams another possible add-on to existing armies. /

I'd also bet the IA you want to use as a source is one of the first 5, now those are not new or current...maybe they re-released them again as updated version compliant with current fluff, if so I wasn't aware of this.
The most recent releases about the Tau ( codex Tau Empire ) and the bitz of Tau fluff in rulebooks and expansions are not using the term 'Gue'vesa' , IIRC.

It's the Taros Campaign in Volume 3. I don't see how you can argue that the first 5 IA volumes are out of date or considered inconsistent with current fluff. Gu'vesa units are an established part of the Tau empire, there are plenty of reasons that would explain why they haven't been included in the codex, most obviously being the case that they are auxiliary units and Tau forces prefer to use them only when they are available on-world, as opposed to shipping them about with the army like the more specialised Vespids and Kroot.

What was your reason why Gu'vesa aren't considered part of Tau fluff again?

Hazardous Harry wrote:
Anyhow, here are some rules for the basic unit. I don't think there are more.
http://www.eastern-empire.com/downloads/guevesa.pdf

See? its chapter approved and I believe its wellknown CA isn't a product GW still considers to publish.
You can find those lists on the web. Obviously no link to a Gue'vesa list or article links to GW anymore. Don't you think this isn't an accidently lost part of the background but lost on purpose?

I only used this as a readily available example. I don't really want to link the IA version because that would be hard to get and probably illegal.

Not saying no one can use these IMO not so current parts of the background, but I'll suggest to keep your eyes open for change
as the course I guess they are running now could easily focus on other aspects of the Tau and if the loss of allies as concept tells us something, it is that a theme is their actual "bread and butter" in codex design, not a believable army.
Human soldiers aren't likely as part of the theme of the Tau in future codices.

What is your reason for this? The entries of Gue'vesa have not been retconned or even contradicted in the slightest. Maybe you don't want to admit that there are many human worlds living happily under the rule of the Tau Empire, and that the Tau sterilize alien worlds at the slightest chance, but then you'd be wrong again. Gue'vesa are established part of Tau fluff and you have yet to offer a reason why the should not be considered as such.

Since this is 40k where, according to its own studio designers no canon and consistency exist, you are all right and nobody can be wrong.

Personally, I'm gonna keep the Gue'vesa in my interpretation of the fluff, as I like the way GW had them written up back then. I also keep the Deathwatch, even though they seem to have disappeared and are no longer mentioned just as much .

As to OP's question, however, I would not say that a human could join the Firewarriors, as that seems to be a Tau-only thing when looking at their other species. That said, I would believe that Gue'vesa could rise not just to the position of squad but even detachment commanders - in case of the latter, extraordinary circumstances might result in small groups of Firewarriors being temporarily be placed under human leadership. Said human would, of course, still be subservient to some other Tau, such as the Ethereal responsible for the region where the Gue'vesa are deployed. Perhaps this would serve as inspiration?

You are born into the Firecast, I do not think you can join them

Lynata wrote:
Personally, I'm gonna keep the Gue'vesa in my interpretation of the fluff, as I like the way GW had them written up back then. I also keep the Deathwatch, even though they seem to have disappeared and are no longer mentioned just as much .

Thank goodness Deathwatch have a whole line of RPG books eh?

Thanks Lynata. thats what i wanted to know. when i said human firewarriors i didnt mean as in them being part of the firecast, just them being placed in a military role.

Cogboy wrote:Just wondering. i know that the Tau allow any races that are usefull and willing to join them for "The Greater Good." so if you were a human renagade who became a Human "Firewarrior," and became a destinguished Soldier with the Tau, would it be possible for a Human to go up the Ranks in the Tau fire cast and oneday reach a position of command?

In the Taros Imperial Armour book they offer to make this Elysian General the human (puppet) ruler of Taros if he helps them. Presumably this would include control of all Gue Vesa forces upon Taros. However, the Tau specifically disarmed most of the PDF of their heavy and special weaponry. My impression is that the Tau do not trust humanity that much and the book Courage and Honour made it seem as though their mind-set is just incompatible with the human one. So they would prbably keep humans at arms length and avoid heavily arming them.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

It's the Taros Campaign in Volume 3. I don't see

Exactly. YOU don't see.
Maybe try harder and take a look at the release date.

Hazardous Harry wrote:What was your reason why Gue'vesa aren't considered part of Tau fluff again?

Go find me something about them in codex Tau empire, rulebooks 4th and 5th, planetstrike, battle missions, apoc, spearhead,
etc etc .
BTW i didn't say they were not part of it in the past, but they are not mentioned in the present or precisely after the Tau had their second codex. This makes them either unimportant or no longer part of the theme, outside the fanbase that is.
Sure, the fanbase will stick with them.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

I only used this as a readily available example. I don't really want to link the IA version because that would be hard to get and probably illegal.

And hard to get tells us what? That it is actually "out of stock" maybe, that it is one of the oldest, non-re-released IA books?

I believe its legal to cite GW or FW publications, so where may I find the plenty of recent background you told me I have missed?

Hazardous Harry wrote:
What is your reason for this? The entries of Gue'vesa have not been retconned or even contradicted in the slightest. Maybe you don't want to admit that there are many human worlds living happily under the rule of the Tau Empire, and that the Tau sterilize alien worlds at the slightest chance, but then you'd be wrong again. Gue'vesa are established part of Tau fluff and you have yet to offer a reason why the should not be considered as such.

Nice attempt to distract.

Why should I repeat myself ? The reason I wouldn't count them as solid ground to base anything on is simply the age of the info and the willingness of GW to forget about things that don't fit into the 'actual' theme of a faction/army/new shiny model line to sell.
The entries of Gue'vesa are built upon the premise of the ones left behind and the story moved on to leave no one behind.
The entries of Gue'vesa are not kept even if this was easy to do for GW and you tell me they dropped them because they are established part of the Tau fluff? Why would they not transfer established parts of the fluff from edition to edition, from site to site?
Too much HD-storage space filled with filthy xenos or what? I doubt GW is xenophobic, they want you to buy as many armies as possible..

1hadhq wrote:
Exactly. YOU don't see.
Maybe try harder and take a look at the release date.

That it was released a while ago doesn't matter, there is absolutely nothing in more recent releases that retcons or contradicts the existence of Gue'vesa units in the slightest.

Go find me something about them in codex Tau empire, rulebooks 4th and 5th, planetstrike, battle missions, apoc, spearhead,
etc etc .
BTW i didn't say they were not part of it in the past, but they are not mentioned in the present or precisely after the Tau had their second codex. This makes them either unimportant or no longer part of the theme, outside the fanbase that is.
Sure, the fanbase will stick with them.

They were part of the Tau force in the Taros Campaign, there has been nothing to suggest they are no longer present. It's not a matter of whether fanbases like them or not, you have no leg to stand on. Just because they are not mentioned in newer GW releases is no indication that they are no longer part of the Tau theme.

Exactly what do you think happens to the human militaries of the worlds that join the Tau Empire?

Can you find me anything about Rouge Traders in planetstrike, battle missions, apoc, spearhead? What about Adeptus Arbites? Ordo Famulous? What about the Terrax Guard or Necromundan Spiders? They haven't been mentioned since the old IG codex, and the Spiders were only in a WD issue. Are you saying these don't exist either?

And hard to get tells us what? That it is actually "out of stock" maybe, that it is one of the oldest, non-re-released IA books?

I believe its legal to cite GW or FW publications, so where may I find the plenty of recent background you told me I have missed?

It isn't legal to provide it if it includes points and stats within the same entry. If you want to read through the entirety of the Taros campaign be my guest, but you are aware that it exists AND there is no recent fluff that contradicts its existence. If there is, which I highly doubt, the onus is on you to provide it.

Nice attempt to distract.

Distract? You still haven't provided any evidence that the Gue'vesa no longer exist in the Tau empire.

Why should I repeat myself ? The reason I wouldn't count them as solid ground to base anything on is simply the age of the info and the willingness of GW to forget about things that don't fit into the 'actual' theme of a faction/army/new shiny model line to sell.

Repeat yourself? You have yet to make any cohesive argument at all beyond "They're not in the most up-to-date brand new fluff, therefore they don't exist." They don't have their own model line because they're ridiculously easy to convert.

The entries of Gue'vesa are built upon the premise of the ones left behind and the story moved on to leave no one behind.
The entries of Gue'vesa are not kept even if this was easy to do for GW and you tell me they dropped them because they are established part of the Tau fluff? Why would they not transfer established parts of the fluff from edition to edition, from site to site?
Too much HD-storage space filled with filthy xenos or what? I doubt GW is xenophobic, they want you to buy as many armies as possible..

Does this matter? There is evidence of the existence of Gue'vesa in GW material, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that they no longer exist (unlike Squats for example). Therefore, Gue'vesa exist.

kenshin620 wrote:Thank goodness Deathwatch have a whole line of RPG books eh?

I was referring to Games Workshop, of course. I know that FFG, just like Black Library or Forgeworld, tends to prefer "its own way". Its Deathwatch sadly also doesn't have to do much with the original one - though I know that many players actually prefer FFG's version.

Cogboy wrote:when i said human firewarriors i didnt mean as in them being part of the firecast, just them being placed in a military role.

Gotcha.

1hadhq wrote:Go find me something about them in codex Tau empire, rulebooks 4th and 5th, planetstrike, battle missions, apoc, spearhead, etc etc .

Just taken a quick stroll through the Codex Tau Empire:
"As the fleet withdrew, Tau forces, one of which was led by the infamous Commander Farsight, followed in its wake and retook their lost worlds, assimilating groups of Human deserters and renegades in the process."
- p8, 'Imperial Contact' (-> Damocles Crusade)

Page 58 also mentions that "many alien races have been absorbed into the fighting arm of the Tau", and that the Vespid and Kroot are "notable amongst these" - meaning there's gotta be more. It is also mentioned several times throughout the book how entire human worlds come under Tau leadership through diplomatic means and manipulation, though this is of course not saying something about the existence of Gue'vesa per se but rather that if they exist, there'd be more of them than just the Damocles traitors.

Perhaps there's more to be found in the other books as well, if one were to take a closer look!

Hazardous Harry wrote:

That it was released a while ago doesn't matter, there is absolutely nothing in more recent releases that retcons or contradicts the existence of Gue'vesa units in the slightest.

Oh it doesn't matter...really?
I'd guess it does matter.
When a company publishes fluff a dozen times and never mentions those units again after they created them several years ago,
maybe said unit was a concept once but disfavored now and put to the sidelines? You seem to think I want to undo them.
I don't but I surely won't stop to point out when something isn't part of the general background anymore as prominetly as you make it and thus not so reliable as it was back in the day. To base anything on such is risky.

Hazardous Harry wrote:
you have no leg to stand on.

I've got a chair to sit on

Hazardous Harry wrote:
Just because they are not mentioned in newer GW releases is no indication that they are no longer part of the Tau theme.

What? No mention is no indication? Don't know, to stop using a term is enough for me to indicate a change.

Hazardous Harry wrote:
Exactly what do you think happens to the human militaries of the worlds that join the Tau Empire?

They know their duty and die instead of dishonoring themselves maybe?

Take your pick:
a) the military is demobilized and disarmed.
b) those not resisting the invaders may get re-educated ( or less PC just brainwashed ) and some of these fools may be lured into low level and disposable units.
c) Tau don't trust Kroot so why should they trust turncoats?
d) if they love peace as much as Kroothawk usually claims, no one needs weapons and thus no human military.

Hazardous Harry wrote:
Can you find me anything about Rouge Traders in planetstrike, battle missions, apoc, spearhead? What about Adeptus Arbites? Ordo Famulous? What about the Terrax Guard or Necromundan Spiders? They haven't been mentioned since the old IG codex, and the Spiders were only in a WD issue. Are you saying these don't exist either?

Its impossible to find some ROUGE traders you know. Rogue ones , maybe. Rogue traders and arbites are Still part of the general background. Guard Regiments come and go, soo...

arbites are still availabe as minis: http://search.games-workshop.com/search?locale=de&keywords=arbites
Their place in the hierarchy of terra ( rulebook page 106 ).
BL had a few novels about the arbites too.

The sisters and their ordos got WDwarfed, that much is certain and this treatment usually minimizes the fluff a bit. Temporary , until a full codex replaces the WD article. But they had famulus in a officially and current codex before.
The 'minimized' WD dex focuses on the military part, ignoring the civilian orders completly.

So where is your point?
Tau got a WD dex I am not aware of? ( and lost the Gue'vesa there? )
Tau got BL novels and minis of Gue'vesa?
Tau having those Gue'vesa mentioned at all in any of the more recent descriptions of the Tau military?

Hazardous Harry wrote:
It isn't legal to provide it if it includes points and stats within the same entry. If you want to read through the entirety of the Taros campaign be my guest, but you are aware that it exists...

And still its was Hazardous Harry who linked to rules in this thread.
Seems like double standards.
Can't be so hard to quote the fluff part where GW writes about 'Gue'vesa' if GW did. Doubt the background has points and stats attached to it, at least not so tight you can't quote without cutting those points and stats out.

Hazardous Harry wrote:
You still haven't provided any evidence that the Gue'vesa no longer exist in the Tau empire.

I don't have to. Its still your turn to provide the plenty and recent fluff you claimed to be out there.
Because I start to doubt you are willing to provide it. Which would be sad, as I am looking forward to this.

Hazardous Harry wrote: They don't have their own model line because they're ridiculously easy to convert.

When had a unit a chance to exist if it couldn't be its own model line?
IIRC GW got rid of all these easy to convert LatD..same with Gue'vesa it seems.

Hazardous Harry wrote:There is evidence of the existence of Gue'vesa in GW material, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that they no longer exist (unlike Squats for example). Therefore, Gue'vesa exist.

Waiting for this evidence
Did he read the CA article he linked to? Did he miss the prospect of retribution? Did he miss the fact, its eternal war and no one is missed?
Maybe if your "evidence" was really recently released or at least from a currently used codex, but the way I see it your whole claim of their existance is based on material almost as old as some of the youngest hobbyists and things change over time.

Thus they existed once. They had a place in official rules. Just admit its in the past where they had a GW supported existence and now rely upon the belief of the reader and therefore no guarantee if they make it when another codex updates the background of the Tau.

so wait.. prior to the recent grey knights jokaero didnt exist? becasue they were no mentioned since rogue trader?

hmmm

1hadhq wrote:So where is your point? [...] Tau having those Gue'vesa mentioned at all in any of the more recent descriptions of the Tau military?

As quoted above, yes. Did you not see my post?

Unless GW comes along and says "These guys? Dead and gone", then they still exist. Doesn't really matter how old the fluff is. Of course, you can kinda set your own canon however you like... I guess the rest of us will just be over here, with our Tau Auxiliaries.

Psienesis wrote: I guess the rest of us will just be over here, with our Tau Auxiliaries.

Don't you mean wall trophies?

Formosa wrote:so wait.. prior to the recent grey knights jokaero didnt exist? because they were no mentioned since rogue trader?

hmmm

For those joining 'the hobby' later ? Maybe IIRc the jokaero were mentioned alongside the old ones and a few paying attention could know of them, but usually people are not aware of things of previous editions if they didn't look them up or had some interest in the game before and started with a basic knowledge already.
I for one, have seen !squats! only in old catalogues because I jumped in at 3rd ed, like people only used to the WD dex of sisters wouldn't know of the civilian orders.
So yes, for a great portion of the fanbase, jokaero could seem new and freshly thrown in alongside codex GK.

Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:So where is your point? [...] Tau having those Gue'vesa mentioned at all in any of the more recent descriptions of the Tau military?

As quoted above, yes. Did you not see my post?

Missed your post sorry. Too busy composing my own and NOT refreshing the thread..

Still if even one wellknown for digging the hidden info out like you, cannot provide a quote with the name 'Gue'vesa' used in it,
I have to keep on poking Hazardous Harry to show me the plentiful he claims to be there.

Psienesis wrote:Unless GW comes along and says "These guys? Dead and gone", then they still exist. Doesn't really matter how old the fluff is. Of course, you can kinda set your own canon however you like... I guess the rest of us will just be over here, with our Tau Auxiliaries.

Be my guest.
GW just had them sinking into the dark, lost to memory by ignoring them IMO.

So how is it, to have "auxilaries" who are not around the Tau military and most likely stuck on a planet like paramilitary police forces, closer to household guards than real intergalactic forces like the IG ?

1hadhq wrote:

So how is it, to have "auxilaries" who are not around the Tau military and most likely stuck on a planet like paramilitary police forces, closer to household guards than real intergalactic forces like the IG ?

If that's what they all are...IMO, the Tau plan to use them as buffers and meatshields in case the Imperium ever decides to come knocking. Just look at their position relative to that of the Imperium and the Tau Empire. They're right in the middle. If the Tau really cared for them, they'd be moved someplace safer.

1hadhq wrote:Missed your post sorry. Too busy composing my own and NOT refreshing the thread..

np, happens! I already got confused.

1hadhq wrote:Still if even one wellknown for digging the hidden info out like you, cannot provide a quote with the name 'Gue'vesa' used in it

So your point is that there are "human helpers", but you contest that they are carrying the name Gue'vesa?

Also: do note that I really only took a cursory glance through the Tau Empire Codex. As I said, it's possible that more information can be found in other somewhat more recent sources which I don't have, nor have any intention of getting. The digging is something I usually only do for the Sisters, after all.
What I tried to do here was to provide a starting point for actual Tau fans in the hopes that someone would pick up where I left off.

1hadhq wrote:So how is it, to have "auxilaries" who are not around the Tau military and most likely stuck on a planet like paramilitary police forces, closer to household guards than real intergalactic forces like the IG ?

Now this is something that you're just making up.

Not that it would be "wrong", mind you! I actually find it somewhat likely (although I would not agree on the exact terms you chose to describe this situation). But it's just one possible interpretation of many.

Tadashi wrote:IMO, the Tau plan to use them as buffers and meatshields in case the Imperium ever decides to come knocking.

iirc, the old material mentioned that the Tau dislike having the Gue'vesa face Imperial forces because of lingering issues of trust - they don't want to risk exposing them to their old self again and having them surrender or switch sides once more, something like that?

Tadashi wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

So how is it, to have "auxilaries" who are not around the Tau military and most likely stuck on a planet like paramilitary police forces, closer to household guards than real intergalactic forces like the IG ?

If that's what they all are...IMO, the Tau plan to use them as buffers and meatshields in case the Imperium ever decides to come knocking. Just look at their position relative to that of the Imperium and the Tau Empire. They're right in the middle. If the Tau really cared for them, they'd be moved someplace safer.

As 'human helpers' , the type of help expected from them could be:
- to keep the other humans in line
- to safe the precious lives of Tau..
If they were meant to fight, it would be 'human warriors' not 'helpers'...

Lynata wrote:So your point is that there are "human helpers", but you contest that they are carrying the name Gue'vesa?

To be precise , I contest GW still runs with 'Gue'vesa' as name and concept actually in the present as they did when the article in chapter approved was written.

Lynata wrote:
Now this is something that you're just making up.

I am just basing my statements on the fluff posted in this thread. ( CA ruleset and your quote )

Thus:
- single squad , not platoon
- basic weapons, no specials, no heavies
- no vehicles
- boni for your opponent
- deserters, rebels, etc

so its a bunch of less desirable soldiery, not well equipped and mistrusted by their superiors.
Sure granted power such units keep the common populace 'in line' and maybe even subscribe to a nice place far away from the ongoing eternal war ( if thats possible ) but who would want to employ those who ran away before ( deserters ) or troublesome ( rebels ) ?
The Tau military favors exactly timed plans, not running away just because you don't like to die "for the greater good" .
Rebellious or likely to desert aren't features they would be fond of.

Lynata wrote:
the old material mentioned that the Tau dislike having the Gue'vesa face Imperial forces because of lingering issues of trust - they don't want to risk exposing them to their old self again and having them surrender or switch sides once more, something like that?

No risk to have them surrender or switch sides, the fate of deserters is usually bad for their health and sometimes rather "hot"..
To quote the regulations of the IG, the Imperial Infantrymans uplifting primer , page 10+11+12:

Desertion:
Any Soldier who absents himself from his troop, battery, company or garrison without leave from his superior officer shall be hunted down without respite and executed in any manner neccessary. ( art. 0001/01a )


Compelling a surrender:
Any Soldier who tries to incite his comrades to give up to the enemy or abandons a post shall be shot on the spot. ( art. 8034/30c ).

Heresy:
Any Soldier who speaks ill of the Emperor, the Imperium, cites his sloyality to any entity besides the Emperor, defaces holy artefacts or buildings, incites heretical thoughts or actions, talks openly about forbidden subjects and generally behaves in a manner disrespectful to all that holy and good will have his extremities removed and left to bleed to death, for the Emperors pleasure. The body will then be burned to ensure no taint remains. ( art. 6741/09a ).

The Tau should accept the IoM really means it when they offer death to whoever fails in his duties. The risk of "losing" the 'Gue'vesa' is therefore low if those are aware of the inevitable punishment.

1hadhq wrote:
*snip*

-Point out the existence of Gue'vesa in Imperial Armour volume 3.
-Demands more recent pieces of fluff
-Points out that no recent fluff contradicts the old stuff, so the old stuff can still be considered good.
-Demands more recent fluff again.
-Lynata comes to the rescue again with a quote from the Tau Codex no less
-Shifts goal posts

Okay man, whatever.

1hadhq wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

So how is it, to have "auxilaries" who are not around the Tau military and most likely stuck on a planet like paramilitary police forces, closer to household guards than real intergalactic forces like the IG ?

If that's what they all are...IMO, the Tau plan to use them as buffers and meatshields in case the Imperium ever decides to come knocking. Just look at their position relative to that of the Imperium and the Tau Empire. They're right in the middle. If the Tau really cared for them, they'd be moved someplace safer.

As 'human helpers' , the type of help expected from them could be:
- to keep the other humans in line
- to safe the precious lives of Tau..
If they were meant to fight, it would be 'human warriors' not 'helpers'...

Yeah not all humans are warriors, and they don't (at least most don't) have a caste system so all humans are either regular humans, or human helpers, the helpers can mine metals, farm crops, or fight. Calling all human allies Human Warriors because some fight is like calling all public servants city soldiers because police carry guns even though the fire department and city hall never carry guns.

1hadhq wrote:If they were meant to fight, it would be 'human warriors' not 'helpers'...

It's an euphemism, I guess. As the older fluff mentioned, the Gue'vesa "fill a tactical niche in the Tau military", which does sound an awful lot like combat deployment imo.
That said, "auxilia" is latin for "to help", and even the Roman Empire already used formations of foreign warriors adopted into its own war machine called Auxilia in battle.

1hadhq wrote:To be precise , I contest GW still runs with 'Gue'vesa' as name and concept actually in the present as they did when the article in chapter approved was written.

I don't get what's supposed to be wrong with the name (how would you call human auxiliary troopers adopted into the ranks of the Tau military?), but the rest could be entirely possible.

Could be.

Just like the Deathwatch no longer existing.

1hadhq wrote:I am just basing my statements on the fluff posted in this thread. ( CA ruleset and your quote ) [...] so its a bunch of less desirable soldiery, not well equipped and mistrusted by their superiors.

But isn't the fluff you are supposedly basing your statements on no longer in effect? The only thing that is "current", as per your opinion posted earlier, would be the existence of human auxiliary troops in the ranks of the Tau military. Anything else is open for interpretation, as all the other fluff (like the CA ruleset) would be, in your mind, invalid?

On the other hand, if we take the older fluff into account, it specifically states that the Gue'vesa have, in fact, "become a respected part of the Tau military".

1hadhq wrote:but who would want to employ those who ran away before ( deserters ) or troublesome ( rebels ) ?

I think this has to do with the Tau mentality and their belief in the Greater Good being the superior doctrine. They are of the opinion that anyone could be re-educated to serve them, like it'd be a logical thing and as if everyone else just needs to be shown how wrong they are for not having joined them yet. Also, deserters have been employed by opposed military forces often enough in Earth's own real history, and the rebellions you are referring to have often been instigated/influenced by the Tau themselves.

1hadhq wrote:The Tau should accept the IoM really means it when they offer death to whoever fails in his duties. The risk of "losing" the 'Gue'vesa' is therefore low if those are aware of the inevitable punishment.

It might be inevitable (even though the Primer is not from GW themselves, studio material offers sufficient evidence for supporting this bit), but ... you know how humans are. A species whose members don't try to fight back in the face of executions but rather let themselves get shot without moving, or who will surrender to an enemy who is known of making no prisoners. Happens all the time in real world human history, too. As if people assume that it would "somehow" work out in the last moment. The IoM could even trick them with a fake pardon proclaimed via loudspeakers on the battlefield, WW2-style.
Also, even if the Gue'vesa would not consider this, it's a Tau policy. "Better safe than sorry", I guess.

Gue'vesa are almost always Imperial Guard/PDFs defected from the IoM, joining the forces of the Tau Empire. Organisation and equipment stay the same (also with most other Xeno ally armies). So ruleswise they are dealt with in the IG Codex. GW has no interest to include the IG Codex into the Tau Empire Codex, as they want to keep the focus on the Xenos character. They are still in the background (as proven above), but Codex and BL novels have other more interesting things to talk about.