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Now the commissars are no longer safe, what possible ways are there to run blob Guard now?

As mentioned in other threads, Sisters of battle could do a lot. Jacobis makes a single blob awesome, and Celestine can stand in front of another blob and act as a shield. But that only leaves us with 2 blobs.

Yarrick might be closer to worth it, since he can stand out front and take wounds. (maybe, he still costs a ton)

Dark Angels give us Ezekiel, who has an aura of fearless.

What other ideas do you have to keep a melee focused Guard possible? The main factor is somehow replacing the commissar's old role, remember only one model in a squad has to have fearless/stubborn to grant it to all of them. Those are the allies that I'm aware of that do so, what other allies could help?

Plonk a lord commie behind them

For a 30 man blob I might consider 2 commissars. That'll show em ...

Those PW-weilding sargents are no longer invulnerable, I can't see how melée blob guard would work in such a circumstance.


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ruminator wrote:For a 30 man blob I might consider 2 commissars. That'll show em ...

Why stop there? Why not three commissars and two lord commissars?
That will show them the meaning of discipline

How did it die? I am thinking of starting a IG army.


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*an

DiRTWaL wrote:How did it die? I am thinking of starting a IG army.

Try reading the post directly above yours.
PW-weilding sargents and more importantly commissars can now be killed in CC fairly easily.

Not so much CC as the characters being picked out by snipers etc before combat ... If you have say a 40 man blob and 4 PW sarges and 2 commissars then it will be difficult to snipe them all out. Fluff wise I like commissars at the back anyway - and also the sniping might want to target the special/heavy weapons in there as well especially as these won't get the look out sir save ...

Utility of the blob is that there are too many targets to pick out individuals to keep them useful, 2 commissars for larger blobs may be worth it - but not for smaller ones. In combat, the sergeants can fight (and die) and the commissar can refuse challenges, sit at the back and just keep that stubborn going.

Seems that there will be quite a bit of practice and finesse required to fine tune this.

Testify wrote:

ruminator wrote:For a 30 man blob I might consider 2 commissars. That'll show em ...

Why stop there? Why not three commissars and two lord commissars?

Point of diminishing returns.

If you stick your commies in the middle of your blobs only a few types of weapons can select them out.
* Characters in range of the commie. (being 24" from draigowing, for example)
* Snipers
* Barrage weapons

If your facing opponents with those units -- make them your priority! Take one additional commie to give you insurance just in case, but they should be safe.

If Abbadon assaults your IG blob and challenges you, don't accept the challenge, or send one of the sergeants forward to get pummeled to death.

I was joking. I wasn't actually advocating sticking 300 points of models into a 150 point unit in order to make it viable

Lord Comissar, Primaris Psyker, hope for the overwatch at full BS power, stick a couple of flamers in there. Could be a very nice counter charge unit just by it's shooting. By no means the toughest unit in the world, but with Ld10 it's going to be a great little tarpit, grinding enemies down by attrition.

htj wrote:Lord Comissar, Primaris Psyker, hope for the overwatch at full BS power, stick a couple of flamers in there. Could be a very nice counter charge unit just by it's shooting. By no means the toughest unit in the world, but with Ld10 it's going to be a great little tarpit, grinding enemies down by attrition.

Well then hope for allies because thats the only way you will unlock divination, otherwise your guardsmen have the aim equivalent of frightened schoolboys when charged.
Pluss feel free to correct but I thought fearless models cannot Overwatch?

Can anybody confirm that special characters from other codexes allied in actually benefit the original army. IE Jacobus/Kryukov(I know that's wrong), will help out Imperial Guard units?

For some reason I thought I read somewhere that they would not.

I've never used him, but Chenkhov has a 12" stubgorn bubble like Yarrick but is only 50 pts. That's only 5 more than a Commissar with a power weapon. And he has two wounds. I was thinking of plopping him in a Chimera with his PCS full of flamers right next to a blob.

Take chenkov the valhallan character and put him behing some cover out of line of sight of the enemy and use his 12inch stubburn ability(forget its name) to keep those blobs in line its more exspensive than a commisar but used with multiple blobs it could pay off.

Grey elder wrote:

htj wrote:Lord Comissar, Primaris Psyker, hope for the overwatch at full BS power, stick a couple of flamers in there. Could be a very nice counter charge unit just by it's shooting. By no means the toughest unit in the world, but with Ld10 it's going to be a great little tarpit, grinding enemies down by attrition.

Well then hope for allies because thats the only way you will unlock divination, otherwise your guardsmen have the aim equivalent of frightened schoolboys when charged.
Pluss feel free to correct but I thought fearless models cannot Overwatch?

Oh Guard can't get Divination? My mistake.

Fearless units can Overwatch. Besides, who's Fearless here? The squad is using the Commissar's Ld bubble.

Grey elder wrote:Pluss feel free to correct but I thought fearless models cannot Overwatch?

Slow and Purposeful cannot overwatch. Fearless are just fine.

If an allied detatchment is classified as Battle Brothers with the Imperial Guard, then the guard gain the full benefit of any independent characters or allied auras for which they are eligible.

Keep in mind that MANY auras specify a certain unit type - for example, the Rites of Battle from Black Templar Marshals/Castellans only applies to Black Templar units. Be sure to double-check before you get your hopes up

Recently I came across this...

And They Shall Know No Fear
A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule automatically passes tests to Regroup. The unit can move, shoot (or Run) and declare charages in the turn in which it Regroups. (in addtion to the 3" Regroup move) If a unit containing one or more models with this special rule is caught by a sweeping advance, they are not destroyed but remain locked in combat. Additionally a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule is immune to Fear"
p33 of the BRB

Since IG are battle brothers with BT, BA, DA, C:SM, and SW pick your favorite character from any of those codex's. You can go as cheap as 70 points with a wolf guard battle leader for your HQ, get a C:SM librarian with your favorite powers, or a captain for some CC ability as well. Any directed attacks are put onto a 5 point guard on a 2+, and the IC is much tougher than a commissar.

IMHO, if your going with a massive blob, this is a great way to go, as ATSKNF knocks the socks off stubborn or fearless.

Edit : A SW librarian with divination is the way to go. Rerolling all to-hits, or being able to shoot at normal BS for overwatch. Yes, please...

...except if that one guy dies, the whole blob is screwed.
Honestly I think blob guard is dead. Multiple infantry squads could be viable given that kill points are now much less likely.

Testify wrote:...except if that one guy dies, the whole blob is screwed.
Honestly I think blob guard is dead. Multiple infantry squads could be viable given that kill points are now much less likely.

Right...so, how do you kill that guy?

Lets say that your a sniper. Your shot has a 1/6 chance of being able to pick its target, the IC has a 1/6 chance of him not passing his LoS test, you have a 1/2 chance of wounding, then he fails his save 1/6 of the time. This is a total of 1/432 chance of happening. And it has to happen 2-3 times before he dies (depending on the IC you chose)

Lets say your an enemy IC like Abbadon. You issue a challange, hoping that the IC will accept. Instead, a little guardsman sergeant steps up and takes the challange. Abbadon pounds the sergeant into a fine red paste, but the rest of the blob (and the ATSKNF IC) beats the enemy squad into oblivion.

Lets take your best chance. Lets say that you managed to drop pod a squad of sternguard with combi-meltas next to the IC so hes the closest target (which is not going to happen, but lets run with it). Each shot combi-melta shot has a 2/3 chance of hitting, 1/6 chance of failed LoS, 5/6 chance of wounding, and 2/3 chance of a failed save. Thats a 5/81 chance (6.17%) per shot of killing the IC. That's a best case!!

I grant you that sometimes really bad/good luck happens. People sometimes win big at Vegas. However, there are much worse odds stacked against you in the game. An example would be the vehicle damage chart, or a failed morale save.

Don't get me wrong, if you can tell me really easily how to kill an IC in terminator armor hidden in a squad, I'm all ears. The mathhammer I've seen does not support it. In fact, going with that SW rune priest in terminator armor casting divination on your squad seems like a really strong advantage.

I think blob guard is dead, but not to snipers. Sniper shots are still really inefficient at shooting characters. The problem with blob guard is to get the power weapon hits in that you need, you have to keep them up front, but up front they will take wounds quickly. Instead of having 36 ablative wounds, you'll be very fortunate to have 10. The essence of the power blob is being able to grind out battles and win against even terminators, but now they kind of suck. Remember that power blobs are pretty costly, especially if you want to give them a shooting threat and have the comissars to keep them in.

Power blobs also clock in at 450 points minimum, so you have to consider that in terms of what you get now. I think the era of power blobs are over. Foot guard isn't dead, but it's not all that great. Mech guard's about the same, gained some mobility and firepower, lost survivability.

labmouse42 wrote:Right...so, how do you kill that guy?

Lets say that your a sniper. Your shot has a 1/6 chance of being able to pick its target, the IC has a 1/6 chance of him not passing his LoS test, you have a 1/2 chance of wounding, then he fails his save 1/6 of the time. This is a total of 1/432 chance of happening. And it has to happen 2-3 times before he dies (depending on the IC you chose)

Don't get me wrong, if you can tell me really easily how to kill an IC in terminator armor hidden in a squad, I'm all ears. The mathhammer I've seen does not support it. In fact, going with that SW rune priest in terminator armor casting divination on your squad seems like a really strong advantage.

Dito. While an SM/BA/SW ally is most likely the best option there are several reasons why the Lord Commi is now a great option for blobs and better than regular Comissars in their role:
1. the main advantage of 1W Comissars in 5th was that as non-ICs they were not an independent unit in close combat which could be targeted at will. The Lord Commissar however suffered from his IC status and risked to be picked out and to die a horrible S6 instant death if he actually wanted to strike in CC at all. This totally changed with 6th edition. Now all ICs count as part of the unit and are able to strike if they get within 2" of a model which is in base contact with an opposing model. ICs can no longer be targeted if they aren't the closest model to the enemy or get hit by attacks getting carried over from models dying in the first rank. This means regular Commissars get no advantage over a Lord Commissar in terms of not getting hit and being able to attack. Also the rule that an IC has always to move first when his unit is attacked and has to pile in (and other models have to make place for him) is gone with the new 3" pile in moves during combat. This means that correct placement of the Lord Commissar in the 2nd or 3rd row (or the other end) of the unit will keep the Lordi save as long as he won't end up in the first rank at the end of the first assault phase.
2. Lordis enjoy a 2+ LoS! both against shooting AND CLOSE COMBAT attacks instead of the 4+ one regular commissars get. This is huge if you consider the fact that the few shooting attacks which can pick out a model will rarely be above S5 and won't be able to ID a Lordi (instead just costing him a wound if he fails his "Terminator" LoS save). Regular Commissars however will still fail their LoS 50% of the time and this is often fatal with a model with 1 wound and a 5+ save.
3. The Lordi has far better buffs than a regular Commissar with his 6" aura and LS 10 and with 3 wounds and a 2+ LoS is far more survivable than TWO regular Commissars for the same price. If you're not already taking 2 CCSs or a CCS and a Primaris there is no point in not running a 30-50 men blob in the future.

All the other arguments labmouse posted (excluding TDA and ATSKNF obviously) still apply

The Power Blob itself might be dead but with the help of divination allies or other buffs (like Harkers aura) the regular troopers even with 1 A will turn into a huge threat if they re-roll hits, they all get a 4+ inv. or force the enemy to re-roll saves combined with a huge amount of models.

Are you serious? 450 points? I don't think I've ever fielded one more than 300 points. Regardless, I think regular commissars will only have a place in small blobs, while Lord Commissars will take their place in larger, front line blobs. I'm not sure I actually care that much about the loss of ability to punch AP2 with power weapons in a blob. If you were facing assault terminators, the 3+ invulnerable was probably in place anyway, and against regular terminators, plasma was usually sufficient for me. There's other units (2+ save ICs, off the top of my head) that will be tougher, but between wound allocation options and LOS!, I don't think Sgts will be going down that fast. At least not fast enough to really make the blob suck. Any losses should be made up for by a PF weilding Lord Commissar who will do way more damage than the PW wielding regular Commissar.

Ninja'd by Ragnar...

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:All the other arguments labmouse posted (excluding TDA and ATSKNF obviously) still apply

The reason I suggest the SW Rune Priest is because of the benefits
* Your immune to fear (ok, its a small boost)
* If you lose a combat, you fall back out of assault, auto-rally and proceed to shoot the heck out of the assaulting squad.
* You can combine the divination power 'Precience' with "First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire", vastly increasing the number of saves your opponent is required to make.

Unless your on the edge of your board and run the risk of falling off the board, ATSKNF is better than fearless/stubborn. If you don't manage to get away -- who cares, you might as well be fearless.

I hadn't thought of the ATSKNF transfer. That's profoundly awesome on a Blob.

Testify wrote:Those PW-weilding sargents are no longer invulnerable, I can't see how melée blob guard would work in such a circumstance.


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ruminator wrote:For a 30 man blob I might consider 2 commissars. That'll show em ...

Why stop there? Why not three commissars and two lord commissars?
That will show them the meaning of discipline

5 sergeants with power weapons,5 commissars with power weapons, 2 lord commissars with power fists, and 5 priests with evicerators. 995 points, but you have 7 str 6 power weapons, and 10 str 3 power weapons, in addition to 45 regular guardsmen.

At 1000 points Just about every other army save tau can get a better cc unit.

xole wrote:At 1000 points Just about every other army save tau can get a better cc unit.

Agreed. The way to do blobs now IMHO is PGs and heavy weapons with a rune priest.

Every round pump out 10 TL AC shots, 5 TL PG shots, and as many TL las guns you can. If your assaulted drown them in small hits or try to break and run.

been playing around for the last week trying to find some way to make my old blobs work and they just dont cut it anymore. Rather than just being really bad in cc now i see guard as they are in the fluff once the enemy gets close then your dead. What i havedone is split some of my blobs up and run msu which plays to the best strength on the guard which is shooting. Of corse once something looks at the squad its dead but while doing so half a dozen other squads can shhot away at it and make the unit take wounds which in cc it will not. With so many msu around my board edge and with my general range advantage i can prevent theenemy bringing the burnt of his forces down on me as there are tomany low point targets. More than happy when a 500+ unit spends a turn destroying 75pts of guard.

Panzeh wrote:I think blob guard is dead, but not to snipers. Sniper shots are still really inefficient at shooting characters. The problem with blob guard is to get the power weapon hits in that you need, you have to keep them up front, but up front they will take wounds quickly. Instead of having 36 ablative wounds, you'll be very fortunate to have 10. The essence of the power blob is being able to grind out battles and win against even terminators, but now they kind of suck. Remember that power blobs are pretty costly, especially if you want to give them a shooting threat and have the comissars to keep them in.

I don't play horde/blob guard, so this is all TheoryHammer, but the way I see it, Blob guard is still viable, just weaker. You can still keep the Sergeants in the midline line so that they reach combat. Also, it's a gamble, but you can put them closer to the front and rely on Look Out Sir saves to keep them alive in a similar fashion as before. As for challenges, you can forgo the challenge and let one sergeant not attack while the rest of the blob swings, I don't see what the big deal is. You should have enough squads together that losing 1 isn't too much of a hindrance. Finally, normal Commissars do seem to have been relegated to morale officers. Lord Commissars, with their invulnerable save and multiple wounds might be able to be used, but then you only a 2 blobs without Allies.

Ah but if you refuse a challenge the enemy picks one character to not fight or use his leadership (the commissar) stubborn Ld8 is ok but getting risky for so many points. Anyway I have to agree with acekevin8412 that I don't think they are dead. They won't be the unstoppable tar pit they used to, we just have to change how we use them. ICs, we need to start using these guys in the blobs now. 2+ LoS are pretty good.