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Can Fenrisian Wolf (purchased as wargear for characters) be used as to take wounds in challenge?

That's a very good question!

Wow this isnt going be a easy one is it.

Here the contradiction of the rule book and codex.

Rule book: For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other.

Codex: the wolves are part of equipment of hero and can not exist without him. Now they are likea bolt pistol)

But are separate models. Like tau drones.

As we know, the codex is always more important than book.

Imho, they can be used in the сhallenge.

Darog wrote:
As we know, the codex is always more important than book.

So as soon as you find the part in the codex that says Wolves aren't models with their own characteristics, then you might have something.

Until then, Wolves are still separate models and therefore cannot contribute to a challenge.


As to whether or not Wolves can TAKE wounds that were destined for their master, that's really the bigger question of whether or not you think challenge wounds can or cannot be allocated onto other models in the combat that are in base contact with enemy models that are swinging at the same Initiative step.

Or in other words, Wolves could be allocated challenge wounds the exact same way any other non-challenge fighting model can be allocated challenge wounds...so if you think that can happen then Wolves (and others) can take challenge wounds in some cases, but if you think that's a rules oversight then Wolves (and everybody else) would not be allowed to have challenge wounds allocated onto them.

yakface wrote:

Darog wrote:
As we know, the codex is always more important than book.

So as soon as you find the part in the codex that says Wolves aren't models with their own characteristics, then you might have something.

I agree, but the question remains open. Because wolves are not just individual models, but wargear, they are not a unit and not part of another unit, they are part of the hero, in fact we have a unit of the three models, the hero (character or IC) of the three models.

In my opinion, if we follow wording, they will not not participate in the challenge, but they still be part of the hero. Therefore, we can redistribute wound. Before or after a save roll, it's also a question.

Darog wrote:
I agree, but the question remains open. Because wolves are not just individual models, but wargear, they are not a unit and not part of another unit, they are part of the hero, in fact we have a unit of the three models, the hero (character or IC) of the three models.

In my opinion, if we follow wording, they will not not participate in the challenge, but they still be part of the hero. Therefore, we can redistribute wound. Before or after a save roll, it's also a question.

There is no such wording. It does not matter how models are added to a unit, whether they come from a wargear option or whether the unit entry allows them to be added, once they are on the table all models in a unit fight precisely as the rules for units dictate unless specified otherwise.

There are absolutely ZERO rules about Wolves taking wounds for the character or anything else that allows them to protect him in anyway. They are just additional models in the unit, which happen to be wargear. I know some people may get confused because there are actual pieces of wargear that aren't models with a profile (like Attack Squigs), but Wolves DO have a profile, ARE models and therefore follow all the normal rules for being a model in a unit unless you can find specific rules which specifically say how they behave otherwise (which there are none).

The wolves are characters just like tau drones that are taken as wargear by characters, just send a wolf to die and crush the squad.

tgf wrote:The wolves are characters just like tau drones that are taken as wargear by characters, just send a wolf to die and crush the squad.

Tau Drones taken via a drone controller say they have the unit type of the character that takes them, so you're right that the argument can be made that those drones are technically 'characters'.

Fenrisian Wolves don't say this, they are labeled as being 'beasts' both in the Rulebook summary and in the Wargear section of the SW codex. So I see no example of why they would be characters.

yakface wrote:

There is no such wording. It does not matter how models are added to a unit, whether they come from a wargear option or whether the unit entry allows them to be added, once they are on the table all models in a unit fight precisely as the rules for units dictate unless specified otherwise.

There are absolutely ZERO rules about Wolves taking wounds for the character or anything else that allows them to protect him in anyway. They are just additional models in the unit, which happen to be wargear. I know some people may get confused because there are actual pieces of wargear that aren't models with a profile (like Attack Squigs), but Wolves DO have a profile, ARE models and therefore follow all the normal rules for being a model in a unit unless you can find specific rules which specifically say how they behave otherwise (which there are none).

The book says nothing about the model. There is no such thing, there is a unit.

The independent character and the wolves is a unit, if he joins the squad, they form a unit.

You throw a challenge not to model, but to character, whether it's an independent character or just a character.


To issue a challenge, nominate a character in one of your units locked in the combat to be the challenger

… nominate one of the characters in your unit to be the challenge…


The codex says that the wolves are wargear of character. So they are part of him.

There are absolutely ZERO rules that forbid use your wargear during the challenge.

If the character dies, the wolves will automatically die with him, because they are not a separate unit, but a part of the hero.

Darog wrote:
The book says nothing about the model. There is no such thing, there is a unit.

The independent character and the wolves is a unit, if he joins the squad, they form a unit.

You throw a challenge not to model, but to character, whether it's an independent character or just a character.


To issue a challenge, nominate a character in one of your units locked in the combat to be the challenger

… nominate one of the characters in your unit to be the challenge…


The codex says that the wolves are wargear of character. So they are part of him.

There are absolutely ZERO rules that forbid use your wargear during the challenge.

If the character dies, the wolves will automatically die with him, because they are not a separate unit, but a part of the hero.

Spoiler:

So they are not models as described on pages 2-3 of the rulebook? So they can't fight in combat then. You can't have it both ways. Either they are models, which means they DO things in the game like move, charge, fight in combat, etc, or they aren't models in which case they don't do any of those things.

I don't know about this one. Both ways sound unfair to the other player. One way one player loses 3 models for the price of one, the other way the player gets bonus wounds/attacks that where not originally accounted for.


The fluff on the wolves had them defending their master buy leaping to the attack(at least in the old 'dex).


I would not be offended playing it either way.

yakface wrote:


So they are not models as described on pages 2-3 of the rulebook? So they can't fight in combat then. You can't have it both ways. Either they are models, which means they DO things in the game like move, charge, fight in combat, etc, or they aren't models in which case they don't do any of those things.

They are separate models (Codex SW, pg. 62), and they are wargear of character.

Rule book says:

Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model's characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it (+ 1, +2,
etc.), multiplying it (x2, x3, etc.) or even setting its value (1,8, etc. ). Attacks and Wounds are the only characteristics that can
be raised above 10. No characteristic can be modified below O.

Most characters are fielded in units from the start of the game, and represent squad leaders, such as a Space Marine Veteran
Sergeant. They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry. They are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider
selection of weapons and wargear choices.

Are fenrisian wolves a wargear in that case? Codex say, yes. P. 31.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

megatrons2nd wrote:


The fluff on the wolves had them defending their master buy leaping to the attack(at least in the old 'dex).

In Prospero Burns, one of the wolves of Russ saved him from Magnus)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, if wolf's character can not use wargear, Dark Angels's Azrael also loses its invule save during the challenge, as it gets it by a separate model (!!!) and Tau´s commander, also loses invule from the drone, etc. sic1

Darog wrote:
They are separate models (Codex SW, pg. 62), and they are wargear of character.

Rule book says:

Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model's characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it (+ 1, +2,
etc.), multiplying it (x2, x3, etc.) or even setting its value (1,8, etc. ). Attacks and Wounds are the only characteristics that can
be raised above 10. No characteristic can be modified below O.

Most characters are fielded in units from the start of the game, and represent squad leaders, such as a Space Marine Veteran
Sergeant. They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry. They are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider
selection of weapons and wargear choices.

Are fenrisian wolves a wargear in that case? Codex say, yes. P. 31.

Ok, if wolf's character can not use wargear, Dark Angels's Azrael also loses its invule save during the challenge, as it gets it by a separate model (!!!) and Tau´s commander, also loses invule from the drone, etc.

You seem to be misunderstanding what I'm saying.

Let me try to break it down for you:

In this game, we have models that have characteristics. Models with characteristics are what are allowed to move, shoot, fight in combat, and are part of units.

If a something is not a model with characteristics, then it does not have permission to do any of these things because the rules don't cover how to move, shoot, or do anything with non-models.

Attack Squigs, Grot Assistants or Azrael's helmet bearer are lla perfect examples of wargear that is in model form that does not have any profile of characteristics and are therefore not 'models' as far as the rules are concerned. These codexes have to go out of their way to explain how to move these markers along with the unit, move them out of the way if they would cause any issues, etc.

But the most important thing is that these are not 'models' in the game because they do not have a profile of characteristics. They are simply makers that are kept near the unit as a reminder of the special ability they provide.

On the other hand, there are models in the game that have their own profile of characteristics who are purchased as a wargear option for a character. These include things like Tau Drones, Fenrisian Wolves, or even Servitors for Templar Chaplains.

These are models in all regards because they have a profile of characteristics, so by the core rules for the game they must form a unit with the character, as this is the only way within the rules they are allowed to move, shoot, fight in combat, etc, because THERE ARE NO OTHER RULES FOR DOING ANYTHING WITH THESE MODELS except for all the main rules for dealing with models.

There is absolutely no basis in the rules to treat these models differently from any other model in the game except where specified otherwise. So the rules that require these wargear models to be removed when their owners die are an example of an additional special rule that they have, but in all other regards they would follow all the normal rules in the game as for any other model.

You have not been able to, and will not be able to find any specific reference in the rule towards allowing Tau Drones or Fenrisian Wolves to somehow be allowed to fight along with their character in combat because no such rules exist for allowing more than one model to fight on each side of a challenge.

This has absolutely nothing to do with a Dark Angel helm bearer, Ork Attack Squig or any other marker that has no profile of characteristics because these are not considered models within the rules and are just a marker to represent an ability.

yakface wrote:

But the most important thing is that these are not 'models' in the game because they do not have a profile of characteristics. They are simply makers that are kept near the unit as a reminder of the special ability they provide.


This has absolutely nothing to do with a Dark Angel helm bearer, Ork Attack Squig or any other marker that has no profile of characteristics because these are not considered models within the rules and are just a marker to represent an ability.

I'm afraid you're wrong




Automatically Appended Next Post:

yakface wrote:

You have not been able to, and will not be able to find any specific reference in the rule towards allowing Tau Drones or Fenrisian Wolves to somehow be allowed to fight along with their character in combat because no such rules exist for allowing more than one model to fight on each side of a challenge.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate damaged flesh), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal Infantry models (a Bike, a Swarm or even a Tank). The advanced rules
that apply to a unit are indicated in the entry for the unit in their relevant Warhammer 40.000 codex.

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic are ules.

Darog wrote:
I'm afraid you're wrong




Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate damaged flesh), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal Infantry models (a Bike, a Swarm or even a Tank). The advanced rules
that apply to a unit are indicated in the entry for the unit in their relevant Warhammer 40.000 codex.

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic are ules.

You keep posting stuff without actually addressing the actual POINTS that I am making.

For example in the Helmet bearer rules you blanked out the sentence that explains that although the Helmet Bearer is a model, he "takes no part in the game"

Do you understand the difference between models in the rules that have characteristics and those that do not?

I cannot shoot at an attack squig because it has no profile to do so. I cannot attack an attack squig in combat because it has no WS, no T, no Wounds and is explicitly stated in the Ork codex to not treat it like a model.

Fenrisian Wolves, Tau Drones on the other hand, have profiles, have characteristics, get to move, shoot, fight, etc, BECAUSE THEY ARE MODELS within the rules of the game.

You can't be saying simultaneously that Wolves are treated like models and able to attack and be attacked and then in the same breath saying that they are not models and are just wargear.

You're not constructing any kind of logical argument that makes sense.


The rules for fighting combats and specifically challenges allow models to be hit, models to be wounded and wounds to be allocated onto models.

If Fenrisian Wolves ARE NOT models then they cannot have wounds allocated to them.
If Fenrisian Wolves ARE models then there would need to be a specific rule allowing them to somehow fight in challenges with their master as the rules are very, very clear that models in challenges are separated from the rest of the models fighting in the combat.


So please, construct a logical argument within the rules as to why and how Fenrisian Wolves are able to participate in a challenge along with their character.

Just to add a little fire.

What about Njal Stormcaller and Nightwing. Here is a chooser of the Slain that attacks models that attack Njal. It has an attack profile D3 S3 auto hits on I5. If Njal is killed, Nightwing is not removed from the table (actually has its own model because it follows the rules for Chooser of the Slain) as we are not told to do so.

Wargear with seperate profiles are not so cut and dry. As every single one was designed before challenges were ever brought into play, I think some joint agreements will need to be made by players. These are just things that are not covered.

If a Character is allowed to fight with any and all wargear purchased... armor, weapons, inv saves, bonuses to stats, pistols, etc. I can't see why you would suddenly disallow any piece of wargear just because it actually has a profile.

Jayden63 wrote:Just to add a little fire.

What about Njal Stormcaller and Nightwing. Here is a chooser of the Slain that attacks models that attack Njal. It has an attack profile D3 S3 auto hits on I5. If Njal is killed, Nightwing is not removed from the table (actually has its own model because it follows the rules for Chooser of the Slain) as we are not told to do so.

Wargear with seperate profiles are not so cut and dry. As every single one was designed before challenges were ever brought into play, I think some joint agreements will need to be made by players. These are just things that are not covered.

If a Character is allowed to fight with any and all wargear purchased... armor, weapons, inv saves, bonuses to stats, pistols, etc. I can't see why you would suddenly disallow any piece of wargear just because it actually has a profile.

Seriously?

Again, Chooser of the Slain are not models with a profile. They are a marker that does things. Of course Nightwings attacks would be allowed in a challenge, because they are not another model fighting in the combat.

Fenrisisan Wolves do not have special rules telling how they fight in combats, move, attack, etc. They are complete models with profiles, etc, and follow all the normal rules for models moving, shooting, fighting as part of a unit as normal.


I am still waiting for someone to construct a logical argument as to how and why a Fenrisian Wolf would be able to participate in a challenge...how would this work? Please use rules quotes to actually construct a logical argument of how this would happen. Please explain how Wolves would get to attack in combat if they are not models. Please explain how Wolves would be allowed to have wounds allocated onto them if they are not models.

And if they ARE models, please explain exactly how they would be allowed into the challenge when the rules for challenges are perfectly clear that only the two models fighting each other are allowed to strike each other.

yakface wrote:

And if they ARE models, please explain exactly how they would be allowed into the challenge when the rules for challenges are perfectly clear that only the two models fighting each other are allowed to strike each other.

It's So Easy.

They wargear of character, so inseparable from him.

Codex: Fenrisian Wolves that are chosen as part of a character's wargear...

Rule book: Most characters are fielded in units from the start of the game, and represent squad leaders, such as a Space Marine Veteran
Sergeant. They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry. They are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider
selection of weapons and wargear choices.

Rule book: To issue a challenge, nominate a character in one of your units locked in the combat to be the challenger

… nominate one of the characters in your unit to be the challenge…

For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other.

If the rules of the Codex contrary to the book, they are always interpreted in favor of the Codex, and no otherwise.

Rule book: Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate damaged flesh), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal Infantry models (a Bike, a Swarm or even a Tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in the entry for the unit in their relevant Warhammer 40.000 codex.

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic are ules.

The fact that wolves are wargear while separate models, this is advanced rule, so they override any contradicting basic rules of chalange from rule book.

This is elementary and simple logic.

There's nothing contrary here.

The wolf is bought as wargear (not is wargear, bought as, its the place you go to get them). He is a model. Only one model can fight one model in a challenge, and they both must be characters. A wolf is not a character, he is not involved.

Might I add, the wolves are given their own profile in the codex and even take up capacity in a transport (in fact the buggers are quite big models at that). They are given their own cohesion rules too. They are models, and must follow limitations on models and non-characters in the BRB. They can be sniped, attacked, allocated to in normal combat, etc. Sorry, I know its not what you want, but its what is.

I wouldn't mind seeing an errata that allows wolves to still make a LOS! sacrifice, but as of now, they aren't in challenges.

Lobukia wrote:

The wolf is bought as wargear (not is wargear, bought as, its the place you go to get them).

Sorry, I know its not what you want, but its what is.

They have not bought as wargear , they are wargear . They are located in section of wargear in the code like the jump packs and heavy bolter.

A key misconception that they are not wargear, they wargear same as a bolt pistol or other.

You do not know what I want, it's pretty ridiculous statement.

n any case, the studio has promised to publish the new Faqs until the end of the summer, I hope they will explain this question.

I prefer to play by the rules, rather than seek "logical" inferences.

Darog wrote:
I prefer to play by the rules, rather than seek "logical" inferences.

It's not an inferred model, its a model. So its out of a character challenge. There really isn't any other relevant information

I have spent a few minutes reading this "thread".
The rules on fenrisian wolves say they are treated as models in their own right. End of story. Look at the 2nd last sentence in the wargear entry on page 62 of the codex.

Under both the Wolf Lord and Wolf Guard Battle Leader entries Fenrisian Wolves are listed as "may choose any of the following: Melta bombs, WTN, WTT, MOW, BoR, and Fenrisian Wolves.

For Iron Priests and Ragnar they have a separate paragraph and it is said that they can "accompany" those characters.

Fen Wolves are also listed as a Unit along with all the other units and have a separate entry under "Upgrades and other Equipment".
The second entry under Upgrades and other equipment states, "Some Space Wolves earn the respect and loyalty of Fen Wolves, beasts who will go on to fight by the side of thier masteron fenris and beyond....Fen Wolves bought as wargear are separate models with their own profile and the unit type beasts."


I think that the best way to play them is that they can accompany their master on challenges. It is in the spirit of the fluff and until there is a FAQ ruling the rules are too vague to come to an airtight decision. Though I do believe they are wargear and can be used in a challenge but that's mainly because I just think it is awesome...

I play wolves, I would love to have my fenrisian wolves there to break the challenge rules but I can't see any justification for it.

A space marine captain can take a command squad in their options list, does that allow them into the challenge?

There seems to be a logical disconnect that somehow it is impossible for wargear to be a model or that if it is possible for some wargear to be a model that this means that all wargear is therefore a model.

Both of these statements are logical fallacies and cannot be properly supported.

First, everyone needs to grasp what is a 'model' in terms of the game rules...not what a physical model is on the table, but actually what the game rules consider a model or not. Page 2-3 of the rulebook clearly explains:

"The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as 'models' in the rules that follow...To reflect all their differences, each model has its own characteristics profile."

And then on page 3 it continues:

"Every model in Warhammer 40,000 has a profile that lists the values of its characteristics. At the back of this book, and in the codexes for each army, you will find the profiles for warriors and heroes drawn from many different races."


So as we can clearly surmise from the above statement, every model in 40K has a profile of characteristics, and that profile is very clearly explained on pages 2-3.

Again, this isn't to say that the game doesn't contain 'models' in the brooders sense of the word that aren't actually considered 'models' by the rules.

Several great examples of this is the Azrael's Banner bearer, which is called a model in its rules, but then also says that it 'takes no part in the game'. Or the Ork Attack Squigs, Grot Oilers, Grot Orderlies, etc, that clearly denote that they these models are 'purely decorative; hence they have no stat line, do not take up space in transports, etc.' Or even the Space Wolf Chooser of the Slain or Grey Knight Servo Skulls, both of which are even just referred to as 'markers' so as not to even imply that they are models in the game.

But you know what else denotes all of these things as not being treated as 'models' in the game? The fact that they do not have a profile of characteristics, which as was established above is something that EVERY model in the game has.


This is starkly different than Tau Drones, Space Wolf Fenrisian Wolves and Cenobyte Servitors, all of which have a characteristic profile, which again clearly denotes them as being 'models' as far as the game rules are considered.

Fenrisian Wolves rules even clearly state (emphasis mine): 'Fenrisian Wolves bought as wargear are separate models with their own profile (see below) and the unit type 'beasts'.'

So I am in no way trying to claim that somehow Fenrisian Wolves ARE NOT wargear, because they are. But they are wargear that is VERY, VERY CLEARLY separate models with their own profile.

The rules for challenges specifically disallow any other models besides the two combatants from attacking each other. As Fenrisian Wolves, Tau Drones & Cenobyte Servitors are all separate models with their own profiles, they would need to have specific rules stating that somehow they can take wounds for the character or something or anything along those lines to have any ability within the rules to do anything for a character that is locked in a challenge.


So to recap in a logically sound argument:


Premise 1: All models have a profile of characteristics as explained on pages 2-3 of the rulebook.
Premise 2: Fenrisian Wolves have a profile of characteristics and are also described as being a separate model on pg 62 of the codex.

Conclusion 1: Fenrisian Wolves are a separate model, as defined by the rules.


Premise 3: In a challenge, only the two combatants may strike blows against one another (rulebook pg 64).
Premise 4: In a challenge, wounds from other attackers cannot be allocated against either [challenge fighting] character, and in fact players are told to resolve the Wound allocation step as if the two characters were not there (pg 64).

Conclusion 2: Models besides the two challenge fighters cannot strike blows against either of the challenge fighters, nor can they allocate any wound they inflict onto either challenge fighter.


Premise 5 (derived from conclusion 1): Fenrisian Wolves are a separate model, as defined by the rules.
Premise 6 (derived from conclusion 2): Models besides the two challenge fighters cannot strike blows against either of the challenge fighters, nor can they allocate any wound they inflict onto either challenge fighter.

Conclusion 3: Fenrisian Wolves cannot strike blows agains either of the challenge fighters, nor can they allocate any wound they inflict onto either challenge fighter.

As pretty much usual, Yak is correct with this

You are only allowed one model in the challenge, and that cannot be a wolf as they dont have the character rule

I'm with yak on this one as well...

Well i like to read all of it but Yak talks to much. I got challenged last night with my WL. I didn't place the Fen. Wolves with him in the challenge. I see it more fluffy as the wolves would not want to get in his way, kill the enemy, or watch his back. Yea I guess they helped Russ out but it was against another primarch. If they are allowed then cool if not then what eves. If they are saving your WL in a challenge then I think you were going to lose anyways.

P.S. I'm with Yak on this one.

Yep, Yak is absolutely right. I don't see how there's ambiguity here.