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A PM conversation with the estimable Pilau Rice got me thinking about some of the basic misunderstanding of the Warp. Seeing the fluff discussion here on Dakka, it seems to me that many people don't understand just how distinct the Warp is from real space. So I thought of a metaphor that might help.

Imagine a picture of a Guardsman shooting his lasrifle. You can see the little streak of red energy "pew pewing" across the image. That image represents a world and with respect to that world the streak of red is not a "streak of red" but rather a laser beam, a.k.a., electromagnetic radiation, a.k.a., light. But with respect to the real world, it's just a streak of red drawn by someone. In one realm of meaning, it is light. In another realm of meaning, it is a symbol of light.

Now, how do these "realms of meaning" interact? Well, I can bring the meaning of the symbol of light to bear on my mind -- to perceive what it means and to talk about it with others (a better metaphor here is the words you are reading now as compared to the ideas that they express). More importantly for the purposes of this thread, I can bring "real" light to bear on the symbol of light by shining a lamp on the picture.

The Warp is kind of like that. When the Primaris Psyker unleashes a lightning bolt of warp energy it's not a real lightning bolt. It's not an electrical phenomenon like what you see in the sky during a storm. Go back to our metaphor of shining a lamp on the picture of the Guardsman. What if me shining a lamp on the picture of the Guardsman made the area in which the Guardsman was standing "in his world" brighter? That's how I see the Warp interacting with real space.

So, here's a similar metaphor -- imagine yourself being able to "jump into" a video game. How would that work? If you're playing a game where the characters cannot jump, can you jump when you "enter" the game world? This is what daemons face when they invade real space: the impossible breaching the realm of the possible.

Even then members of the physical realm probably aren't even perceiving brief glimpses of the warp properly. They are still limited by what they can and cannot see, feel, etc. So I guess not only is it like a picture as you say, but one of those optical illusion ones where there is a hidden picture; only we can see the picture just not the illusion or something like that. Or did I just go completely past it there?

Why isn't it a Lightning bolt? If it looks like a Lightning bolt, zaps like a lightning bolt and isn't an Alpha Legionnaire in fancy dress, surely it's a lightning bolt.

It's all energy transformed into what the Psyker wants at that time. In the warp the Realm of Chaos can be moulded to what ever the thinker wants, it's the same in the the case of the psyker in the phsyical realm, just on a smaller scale. If it just fired out as warp energy or whatever it is it wouldn't be recognisable. It's the desire of the individual that gives it any meaning.

The warp is a realm of pure energy, psykers suck out the juice from it when they need too.

Edit: Actually, maybe I see your point here now though, regardless of what it is, it isn't that hex ray that you fires out of your eyes, it's something that happened in the warp with a reflection comprehended in the physical plain, maybe ...

We're not supposed to comprehend the Warp dude

Pilau Rice wrote:Why isn't it a Lightning bolt?

Because a lightning bolt is an electrical phenomenon. The Warp has nothing to do with electrons and charges, etc, which are all facets of the material world. "Energy" is a real space concept used to imagine the Warp. It is like confusing the picture of a lightning bolt with a real lightning bolt. Or saying that the word "grasshopper" is the same thing as an actual grasshopper.

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Why isn't it a Lightning bolt?

Because a lightning bolt is an electrical phenomenon. The Warp has nothing to do with electrons and charges, etc, which are all facets of the material world. "Energy" is a real space concept used to imagine the Warp. It is like confusing the picture of a lightning bolt with a real lightning bolt. Or saying that the word "grasshopper" is the same thing as an actual grasshopper.

Indeed, see my edit bruv

True, but you're also converting something from a realm where nothing applies into an action where there are laws of gravity and time etc.

Maybe the act makes the power conform to its real world counterpart.

n0t_u wrote:So I guess not only is it like a picture as you say, but one of those optical illusion ones where there is a hidden picture; only we can see the picture just not the illusion or something like that. Or did I just go completely past it there?

Yes, that's a good point. When you see this picture:



You might see two faces and/or a vase. But what if the idea of "vase" is utterly incomprehensible to your mind. In that case, this is just a picture of two faces. What if I told you that this is a picture of two faces and/or and vase and/or a Jhyalmaktorx. The problem is, your brain is incapable of comprehending what a Jhyalmaktorx is, so you have no chance of ever perceiving it.

What if perhaps to accommodate the materium, it converts to fit within the rules of it? Then much like a cube of sugar in a glass of water stuff sent into it eventually dissolves and becomes of the warp.

So it is lightning, but at the same time isn't and behaves as lightning.

Pilau Rice wrote:Actually, maybe I see your point here now though, regardless of what it is, it isn't that hex ray that you fires out of your eyes, it's something that happened in the warp with a reflection comprehended in the physical plain, maybe ...

Exactly so! When you start to think of it this way, especially if you have any background in the Cthulhu mythos, you can understand the whole "Perils of the Warp" thing. You're not just "channeling energies" like electricity moving through a non-conductive metal -- you're associating fundamentally different modes of existence. It's like a two-dimensional circle simultaneously existing as a three-dimensional cube.

n0t_u wrote:What if perhaps to accommodate the materium, it converts to fit within the rules of it?

It does and it doesn't. For example, daemons can be fought with bolt pistols. But they cannot be killed with bolt pistols. The material weapon only influences the extent to which they are effectively reflected (or to use the 40k term in an unusual way, "translated") into materiality.

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Actually, maybe I see your point here now though, regardless of what it is, it isn't that hex ray that you fires out of your eyes, it's something that happened in the warp with a reflection comprehended in the physical plain, maybe ...

Exactly so! When you start to think of it this way, especially if you have any background in the Cthulhu mythos, you can understand the whole "Perils of the Warp" thing. You're not just "channeling energies" like electricity moving through a non-conductive metal -- you're associating fundamental different modes of existence. It's like a two-dimensional circle simultaneously existing as a three-dimensional cube.

n0t_u wrote:What if perhaps to accommodate the materium, it converts to fit within the rules of it? Then much like a cube of sugar in a glass of water stuff sent into it eventually dissolves and becomes of the warp.

So it is lightning, but at the same time isn't and behaves as lightning.

Pilau Rice wrote:True, but you're also converting something from a realm where nothing applies into an action where there are laws of gravity and time etc.

Maybe the act makes the power conform to its real world counterpart.

But then I would argue that you are harnessing a power and transforming it into something that can be used in accordance to your location. Psychic powers can still be used in the warp, what happens then?

Sorry to quote myself there as well

I can't comment on anything to do with Cthulhu unfortunately.

Pilau Rice wrote:Psychic powers can still be used in the warp, what happens then?

They are just as or more effective. The better question is, what happens if you shoot at a daemon in the Warp with a bolt pistol? Presumably, the "will to injure" would adhere to the bullet. The bullet would carry this psychic reality of the desire to maim to the target.

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Psychic powers can still be used in the warp, what happens then?

They are just as or more effective. The better question is, what happens if you shoot at a daemon in the Warp with a bolt pistol? Presumably, the "will to injure" would adhere to the bullet. The bullet would carry this psychic reality of the desire to maim to the target.

Would you fire Lightning or warp energy? You're in the the actual realm where the energy comes from but would Lightning have any meaning where it doesn't exist

I'm not sure about the bolter, I would guess that the same amount of damage would be done to it, possibly less. You don't hear of any survivors when ships lose their Gellar fields, Daemons are just warp energy after all, when they are in their own realm.

I guess Draigo is more or less the extent of what we have to go by for some being of the material realm being within the warp for an extended period. Unless there is more that I'm unaware of. Space Hulks I'd figure would have an example or two within them.

Yep, Psychic Powers and Daemons are even more powerful in the warp, being so close to their juice-box/life force an' all.

Physical weaponry is supposed to struggle against [weakened - due to material realm] Daemons anyway, let alone when they're in the warp. So I'd imagine Bolters etc. would have a much more limited, but still existent, effect.
That's a very neat idea about the desire to harm the target effecting the bullet, Manchu, could well be 'true'.

Pilau Rice wrote:Would you fire Lightning or warp energy?

Hmm, there is no question of it being lightning or warp energy. It is warp energy whether "fired" in the materium or immaterium.

Geller Fields are mysterious. Do they just protect you from the Warp or do they allow the material to even exist in the Immaterium? I'd say it's more likely the latter.

Manchu wrote:

n0t_u wrote:So I guess not only is it like a picture as you say, but one of those optical illusion ones where there is a hidden picture; only we can see the picture just not the illusion or something like that. Or did I just go completely past it there?

Yes, that's a good point. When you see this picture:



You might see two faces and/or a vase. But what if the idea of "vase" is utterly incomprehensible to your mind. In that case, this is just a picture of two faces. What if I told you that this is a picture of two faces and/or and vase and/or a Jhyalmaktorx. The problem is, your brain is incapable of comprehending what a Jhyalmaktorx is, so you have no chance of ever perceiving it.

Disagree with this particular point (the rest is VERY interesting, especially the Bolt round in the Warp....)

This would be a case of recognition, as opposed to perception. You could still 'see' the object, just not know the name for it/the use for it etc.

EDIT: Gellar Fields extend a small bubble of the Materium around the ship IIRC

n0t_u wrote:I guess Draigo is more or less the extent of what we have to go by for some being of the material realm being within the warp for an extended period. Unless there is more that I'm unaware of. Space Hulks I'd figure would have an example or two within them.

Draigo is a different case entirely, he's been put there by a Daemon so probably some sinister intention there, but that's a true point on the Space Hulks and one I've mentioned before in another thread.

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Would you fire Lightning or warp energy?

Hmm, there is no question of it being lightning or warp energy. It is warp energy whether "fired" in the materium or immaterium.

You need a point of reference, you want to fry the Daemon with Lightning, as it's a power you used before and you can comprehend what it does and looks like, but it doesn't exist in the warp. Does it just go poof and not work or does it fire as lightning. Or you think I want to fire Warp Energy, you can't comprehend for the life of you what it actually is or looks like, so nothing happens?

Manchu wrote:]Geller Fields are mysterious. Do they just protect you from the Warp or do they allow the material to even exist in the Immaterium? I'd say it's more likely the latter.

It takes a bubble of real space in with you from what I understand.

Manchu wrote:Geller Fields are mysterious. Do they just protect you from the Warp or do they allow the material to even exist in the Immaterium? I'd say it's more likely the latter.

It is the latter, they project a small bubble somehow making it so that you are not really in the warp in a way. In much the same sense as a submarine.

Revenent Reiko wrote:This would be a case of recognition, as opposed to perception. You could still 'see' the object, just not know thae name for it/the use for it etc.

I would agree if it were a case of simply not knowing something that was knowable in the first place. But in my example, I provide that the Jhyalmaktorx cannot be known by the human mind. It is therefore "invisible."

EDIT: Gellar Fields extend a small bubble of the Materium around the ship IIRC

This is what I thought as well but I guess there are Space Hulks to consider. Who knows what the feth is going on with Draigo.

Just to say; Lexicanum clarifies "Gellar field device emits a field called a Gellar field, essentially creating a bubble of real space around the ship. The weakening, failure, and collapse of a Gellar Field while the ship is traveling through the warp would be completely disastrous. Warp entities would tear the ship apart to reach and consume the souls of the crew." Om nom nom.

Just Dave wrote:Just to say; Lexicanum clarifies "Gellar field device emits a field called a Gellar field, essentially creating a bubble of real space around the ship. The weakening, failure, and collapse of a Gellar Field while the ship is traveling through the warp would be completely disastrous. Warp entities would tear the ship apart to reach and consume the souls of the crew." Om nom nom.

Sort of like a Space Chicken Kiev

Pilau Rice wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Just to say; Lexicanum clarifies "Gellar field device emits a field called a Gellar field, essentially creating a bubble of real space around the ship. The weakening, failure, and collapse of a Gellar Field while the ship is traveling through the warp would be completely disastrous. Warp entities would tear the ship apart to reach and consume the souls of the crew." Om nom nom.

Sort of like a Space Chicken Kiev

Ooomph, I'm hungry now. Thanks.

Manchu wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:This would be a case of recognition, as opposed to perception. You could still 'see' the object, just not know the name for it/the use for it etc.

I would agree if it were a case of simply not knowing something that was knowable in the first place. But in my example, I provide that the Jhyalmaktorx cannot be known by the human mind. It is therefore "invisible."

Good point, and i see where you are coming from, maybe its just the example scrambling my mind (entirely possible), but if there is something there to see (in this example) then it would be 'see-able' (not a word ), regardless of whether or not you know what it is.

I think it is just the example, but i cant think of a better one to explain what i mean I know where you are coming form though.

EDIT: Gellar Fields extend a small bubble of the Materium around the ship IIRC

This is what I thought as well but I guess there are Space Hulks to consider. Who knows what the feth is going on with Draigo.

Space Hulks are known not to have Gellar fields, but if we continue the Bolter Shell thought, what if the ships that make up the Hulk hold a..memory (for want of a better word) of their shape/size/characteristics so as to be less effected by the other-ness (also not a word) of the Immaterium? Also, i would imagine that anything on the Space Hulk would either have to be resilient to the Warp (Orks), immune to it to some extent (Tau on space hulks? or CSM/Renegades) or to try to restore the Gellar fields of one of the ships that still functions. Of course, just because a ship has formed part of a hulk does not mean that the Gellar field failed, it could have fallen prey to a multitude of different fates...

Draigo....no fething idea, havent read his fluff TBH. To jump on the bandwagon, i guess his plot-armour generates its own Gellar field...

Revenent Reiko wrote:
Space Hulks are known not to have Gellar fields, but if we continue the Bolter Shell thought, what if the ships that make up the Hulk hold a..memory (for want of a better word) of their shape/size/characteristics so as to be less effected by the other-ness (also not a word) of the Immaterium? Also, i would imagine that anything on the Space Hulk would either have to be resilient to the Warp (Orks), immune to it to some extent (Tau on space hulks? or CSM/Renegades) or to try to restore the Gellar fields of one of the ships that still functions. Of course, just because a ship has formed part of a hulk does not mean that the Gellar field failed, it could have fallen prey to a multitude of different fates...

Maybe they are just left alone? They quite often drop off a tasty treat onto some random planet, or they could be like the flower bed of the warp in a way.

Revenent Reiko wrote:Draigo....no fething idea, havent read his fluff TBH. To jump on the bandwagon, i guess his plot-armour generates its own Gellar field...

He seems to work more or less like a Daemon.

I guess it might also be the case that Space Hulks aren't necessarily "in the Warp" in some kind of exclusive sense. Maybe they are more like the Daemon Worlds in the Eye of Terror?

To run with an example: So if the lightning bolt is not a lightning bolt, what is it? What is the psyker actually doing here? In simplest terms he is causing physical damage to another thing at a distance, and an arc that has physical qualities that make it appear similar to a lightning bolt appears as a manifestation of this warp based act in the real world. Is this a visual illusion created by the psyche of the psyker, or is a something more physical? Just trying to see the Jhyalmaktorx here...

EDIT: Gosh, apparently I took longer to write this than I realised! An explosion of posts in the meantime!

Manchu wrote:I guess it might also be the case that Space Hulks aren't necessarily "in the Warp" in some kind of exclusive sense. Maybe they are more like the Daemon Worlds in the Eye of Terror?

The process could be slow I guess. I don't think Daemons have managed to stay in the material world itself for too long for us to know what'd happen to them. Usually they're there briefly, then back they go.

htj wrote:To run with an example: So if the lightning bolt is not a lightning bolt, what is it? What is the psyker actually doing here? In simplest terms he is causing physical damage to another thing at a distance, and an arc that has physical qualities that make it appear similar to a lightning bolt appears as a manifestation of this warp based act in the real world. Is this a visual illusion created by the psyche of the psyker, or is a something more physical? Just trying to see the Jhyalmaktorx here...

EDIT: Gosh, apparently I took longer to write this than I realised! An explosion of posts in the meantime!

I'd say it's the way it visually manifests (here, in a way convenient for the psyker).

For example, in psychic battles, psykers often adopt certain forms (such as sharks) - as shown in Ravenor - so the manifestation of overt psychic attacks is probably similar.
So, for human's we'd be more likely to use lightning or sharks etc., but Daemons would just use a mass of energy and limbs and so forth...

Manchu wrote:I guess it might also be the case that Space Hulks aren't necessarily "in the Warp" in some kind of exclusive sense. Maybe they are more like the Daemon Worlds in the Eye of Terror?

What, like the Orks Waaagh energy

They are definitely in the warp at times, the Unholy Harbinger is mentioned to have broken from warp near Cloras in the old Necrons Dex and the Chaos dex says

As well as ancient Chapter or Legion warships, Chaos Space Marines make use of Space Hulks to travel the Warp - P57

Reiko wrote:what if the ships that make up the Hulk hold a..memory (for want of a better word) of their shape/size/characteristics so as to be less effected by the other-ness (also not a word) of the Immaterium

Machine spirit, perhaps? Just a thought. Also, otherness is totally a word. You're good to use that with impugnity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Just Dave

That makes a lot of sense. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the manifestation of the usage of warp energy is shaped by the mind controlling it. Specifically, said manifestation is a form that the weilder's mind is capable of understanding. That's really interesting, brings us back to Manchu's above Lovecraft reference. So a perils of the warp attack is potentially the breakdown of those 'reality analogy' defences and exposure to the maddening effects of the warp.

Or as Lovecraft would have it - 'That was when I went mad.'