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So i've played about 6 games of 6th with my templars now, and my terminator/land raider heavy list is performing well with 6 wins so far. Has anyone else been using tactical terminators in 6th (by tactical i mean terminators without thunder hammers/lightning claws)? I'm finding that they are extremely versatile and difficult to shift. Plus if you get to assault with them, they just make a mess of whatever they hit now.

All I know is that LCs are out, TH/SS are godly, and Tacticals are good too.

liquidjoshi wrote:All I know is that LCs are out, TH/SS are godly, and Tacticals are good too.

I'm not a marine player, but why are LCs out? The ability to re-roll failed wounds and ignore armor isn't good?

Dr. What wrote:

liquidjoshi wrote:All I know is that LCs are out, TH/SS are godly, and Tacticals are good too.

I'm not a marine player, but why are LCs out? The ability to re-roll failed wounds and ignore armor isn't good?

Because LCs do not "ignore armor", they are power weapons. AP3. Cannot break armor against other termies. I felt this quite keenly as a Black Legion CSM player because Abaddon is now gloriously Ap3.

The reason Lightning Claws aren't popular is because while an extra attack with a re-roll to wound is nice, they are now only AP3. TH/SS gives you a 3++ save, S8, AP1, and Concussive, even though it's at initiative 1. Honestly, for most people, the 3++ is what makes the difference.

Lighting Claws actually got a lot Better, you can now re-roll all your Failed to Wound Rolls, not once, not 1s, all. So they wont punch 2+ Armor who cares, you are going off on I4 most of the time, the AP2 Weapon are going off on I1. That could be a few less Thunder Hammer hitting you ignoring your 2+ Save.
I just got through with a game were my BA Cap and his Honor Guard Shredded my opponents handily, even the Ork Nob in his 2+ Mega Armor [I think that’s what its called] and he still failed his saves.

As for Tactical Terminators, yes I think they just got better.

Lightning Claws could always re-roll all failed rolls to wound, so I miss your last point. Generally the AP3 of them did cause a loss in their utility for assault terminators as all other terminators are striking at str8 and AP2.

praetorian_aak wrote:Lightning Claws could always re-roll all failed rolls to wound, so I miss your last point. Generally the AP3 of them did cause a loss in their utility for assault terminators as all other terminators are striking at str8 and AP2.

I miust have gotten them mixed up didgatal Weapons, I am good at double guessing myself. DERP

My point is still bascialy the same, A few Lighting Claws going off on I4 could make all of the diferance in the world.

Mix. Use lightning claws and TH/SS. What a concept!

Anpu42 wrote:

praetorian_aak wrote:Lightning Claws could always re-roll all failed rolls to wound, so I miss your last point. Generally the AP3 of them did cause a loss in their utility for assault terminators as all other terminators are striking at str8 and AP2.

I miust have gotten them mixed up didgatal Weapons, I am good at double guessing myself. DERP

My point is still bascialy the same, A few Lighting Claws going off on I4 could make all of the diferance in the world.

Ummm yeah no they are a waste.

5 LC Terms vs 5 Tacital TErms

5 lightning claws with charge
10 stormbolter overwatch=1.666 hits=.833333 wounds=.14 dead

20 attacks
WS 4 vs. WS 4 10 hits
Wounds on a 4. 5 wounds rerolls 7.5 wounds- 1.25 dead sgt. takes it

8 power fist
4 hit=3.333wounds=2.222 dead=total 2.36 dead

Thanks!

Another Terminator related question.

Can assault termies get chainfists? I'm wondering because my friend has a squad of 5. 4 have lightning claws and 1 has a chainfist.

Anpu42 wrote:

praetorian_aak wrote:Lightning Claws could always re-roll all failed rolls to wound, so I miss your last point. Generally the AP3 of them did cause a loss in their utility for assault terminators as all other terminators are striking at str8 and AP2.

I miust have gotten them mixed up didgatal Weapons, I am good at double guessing myself. DERP

My point is still bascialy the same, A few Lighting Claws going off on I4 could make all of the diferance in the world.

Uhm...sure, strike first vs. my 2+ when I can strike back with my S7 that allows no armor saves at all...

Dr. What wrote:Thanks!

Another Terminator related question.

Can assault termies get chainfists? I'm wondering because my friend has a squad of 5. 4 have lightning claws and 1 has a chainfist.

I know Deathwing can do that. Chaos may also be able to but i'm not sure.

Or you can mix. Hell, what happens when you encounter non-2+ armor save guys with AP 2 weaponry?

Dr. What wrote:Thanks!

Another Terminator related question.

Can assault termies get chainfists? I'm wondering because my friend has a squad of 5. 4 have lightning claws and 1 has a chainfist.

Vanilla marines cannot.

Tac termies can give anyone a CF instead of a PF.

Assault Terminators only have either TH/SS or a pair of LCs.

Black Templars tactical termies have been great ever since one of the 5th edition FAQs updated your CML.
Now you have drop pods that drop turn 1, I also like your assault cannons.

It depends on how much plasma people will now pack. At the least they have become truly tactical, they are capable of surviving assault and reasonable at shooting.

Probably best a low points for vanilla marines where it is hard to build balanced list.
Same with BA where there are better things to buy but they add a lot of flexibility maybe add a termy priest.
Deathwing+spacewolves hasn't really changed.

On chainfists: Chaos Terminators and Deathwing terminators can mix and match. So they can take 4TH/SS and one AC/CF.

On mixing: Maybe. I'd rather all TH/SS as they are very hard hitting, most weapons that ignore the 2+ will be hitting at the same time as TH, and can still be saved at range by SS. The LC attacks at a higher initiative, I've found, are not effective enough to be worth taking. As a Deathwing player, I would rather TH/SS or Tactical loadouts. Having said that, I've never been a fan of LCs.

Chaos doesn't have THs or SS

Grey Templar wrote:Chaos doesn't have THs or SS

Shoot me, I made a mistake Some people...

Alright, Chaos can take 4*LC and 1*Reaper AC/CF.

Happy now?

Tac Termies, did get a some nice buffs.

Don't auto die to all power weapons (5++ was not reliable enough)

Can now safely DS in to area terrain thanks to Armor saves( not big on it's own but...)

Became huge fire magnets since any thing less than assault Termies are going to be in for a very rough time with them.

captain collius wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:

praetorian_aak wrote:Lightning Claws could always re-roll all failed rolls to wound, so I miss your last point. Generally the AP3 of them did cause a loss in their utility for assault terminators as all other terminators are striking at str8 and AP2.

I miust have gotten them mixed up didgatal Weapons, I am good at double guessing myself. DERP

My point is still bascialy the same, A few Lighting Claws going off on I4 could make all of the diferance in the world.

Ummm yeah no they are a waste.

5 LC Terms vs 5 Tacital TErms

5 lightning claws with charge
10 stormbolter overwatch=1.666 hits=.833333 wounds=.14 dead

20 attacks
WS 4 vs. WS 4 10 hits
Wounds on a 4. 5 wounds rerolls 7.5 wounds- 1.25 dead sgt. takes it

8 power fist
4 hit=3.333wounds=2.222 dead=total 2.36 dead

That isn't really the be all end all of it.

While LC vs tactical terminators may come out in the tacs favor, there are plenty of situations where the LC terminators would be superior. Like say if you were assaulting MEQ. The LC termies would fare much, much better than the tacticals. Its all about using the right tool for the job.

Terminators no matter the kind have always been fire magnets because everyone knows they are usually most dangerous unit the c:sm player is packing in the army list.

Kevlar wrote:

captain collius wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:

praetorian_aak wrote:Lightning Claws could always re-roll all failed rolls to wound, so I miss your last point. Generally the AP3 of them did cause a loss in their utility for assault terminators as all other terminators are striking at str8 and AP2.

I miust have gotten them mixed up didgatal Weapons, I am good at double guessing myself. DERP

My point is still bascialy the same, A few Lighting Claws going off on I4 could make all of the diferance in the world.

Ummm yeah no they are a waste.

5 LC Terms vs 5 Tacital TErms

5 lightning claws with charge
10 stormbolter overwatch=1.666 hits=.833333 wounds=.14 dead

20 attacks
WS 4 vs. WS 4 10 hits
Wounds on a 4. 5 wounds rerolls 7.5 wounds- 1.25 dead sgt. takes it

8 power fist
4 hit=3.333wounds=2.222 dead=total 2.36 dead

That isn't really the be all end all of it.

While LC vs tactical terminators may come out in the tacs favor, there are plenty of situations where the LC terminators would be superior. Like say if you were assaulting MEQ. The LC termies would fare much, much better than the tacticals. Its all about using the right tool for the job.

Tacticals can take MEQ easily, unless power weapons are present, and that only covers Fists, hammers and Axes. LCs will hit first, Fists at the same time. Only need to worry then.

Kevlar wrote:

captain collius wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:

praetorian_aak wrote:Lightning Claws could always re-roll all failed rolls to wound, so I miss your last point. Generally the AP3 of them did cause a loss in their utility for assault terminators as all other terminators are striking at str8 and AP2.

I miust have gotten them mixed up didgatal Weapons, I am good at double guessing myself. DERP

My point is still bascialy the same, A few Lighting Claws going off on I4 could make all of the diferance in the world.

Ummm yeah no they are a waste.

5 LC Terms vs 5 Tacital TErms

5 lightning claws with charge
10 stormbolter overwatch=1.666 hits=.833333 wounds=.14 dead

20 attacks
WS 4 vs. WS 4 10 hits
Wounds on a 4. 5 wounds rerolls 7.5 wounds- 1.25 dead sgt. takes it

8 power fist
4 hit=3.333wounds=2.222 dead=total 2.36 dead

That isn't really the be all end all of it.

While LC vs tactical terminators may come out in the tacs favor, there are plenty of situations where the LC terminators would be superior. Like say if you were assaulting MEQ. The LC termies would fare much, much better than the tacticals. Its all about using the right tool for the job.

I'll give you that against standard MEQs LC's cause lots of pain.

20 attacks on the charge=10 hit=7.5 dead if they have feel no pain this drops to 5.25
pf
megs go first sgt with bp/ccw

12attack 6 hit=3 wounds= .5 wounds
at the same time 3 attacks=1.5 hits=.75 wounds=.375with FNP
power fists(assuming 1 died.)=9 attack=4.5 hit=3.75 dead 4.125 combined
if they survive=12 attacks=6 hits=5 dead 5.375 combined

so yes if your standard meta includes MEQ's ligthning claws destroy squads. but powerfist can wreck vehicles

Lightning claws are also better against mook units as they have an extra attack and re-rolling failed results. Sure you might not want them in combat with the mooks, but your opponent might try his dardest to do so.

I would run a ration of 3 to 2 lightning to hammer.


Also tactical terminators are still boss if even for the amount of fire power they put out.

Run 10 with two assault cannons or cyclone combat squad the two shooting guns into one unit, the other 5 with sergeant go hunt stuff

Tacticals can overwatch, which is a nice bonus, as well as fire into the troops they will assault, meaning they take less overwatch fire in return. Also, the assault Cannon got better in general, since it can glance vehicles to death and, being S6, can deny FNP rolls to all T3 models.

I think Assault terminators will still see more play, if only because a 3++ save truly is a powerful asset almost no other armies can exploit. But tacticals have become more fieldable, yes.

Sephyr wrote:I think Assault terminators will still see more play, if only because a 3++ save truly is a powerful asset almost no other armies can exploit. But tacticals have become more fieldable, yes.

Well with the nerf to power weapons *all* terminators have become more fieldable. Equipping them just depends what you want to do with them. If you want MEQ slayers then lightning claws will serve the best. If you want to beat up rhinos and walkers then thunder hammers. If you want a mobile defense line that can lay down some hurt then tacticals.

Very true, but the point remains that one flavor of terminator is stil lfar more vulnerable to plasma barrages, vindicator blasts, charging Daemon Princes and Trygons and so on.

I agree that tacticals may even be killier is some circumstances, but assault marines will often be a longer-lasting investment able to deal with the enemy heavyweights better than almost any other option.

While 2+ armor got a lot better, and while stormbolters and assault cannons do open up the opportunity for overwatch, in addition to their normal uses, stormshields are rage-quittingly powerful.

Lelith Hesperax got to see one game of 6th edition before she hit the shelf. She met a wolf lord, he challenged, he passed a couple of his saves, and then he put her to sleep.

Shooty terminators are a good unit, I use a mix of shooty and hammery termies for troops in my dark angels army, but the stormshield and thunder hammer unit has the ability to completely spit in the face of not only every xenos 'so-called' close combat specialist, including monstrous creatures, but they are at least as good as any other CC unit in the game, point for point. They have to be my go-to choice for frontline duty.

WARNING: my new rulebook is yet to arrive! (wtf gw!!!)
Well, lets face the facts. TH/SS are one of the most over powered units in the game. The are only slightly worse than necron sword and board lychguard for at least 10 points less. Many units are better than TH/SS Shep, but none are on a point for point basis. For example a khorne termie lord with a daemon weapon can deal something insane like 15 hits a turn that are power weapon attacks and it also attacks first. But the fact of the matter is that this unit is 155 points on its own. A lord could also have mon and deal up to nine poisoned attacks wounding on a 4+ which, while not great against termies is the difference between, well, quite alot when you are fighting a wraithlord. You could also have a mon daemon weapon biker lord. Or a daemon prince with mon and warptime, or a dp with mot and bolt of change, warptime and wings to just fly around and pick your termies off from 24 inches away before finishing the battle at a later date whenever it suits the opposing player. What about the 500+ point necron royal court lord deathstar with a 5 2+/3++/4+++ at strength seven powerweapon, I2, still hitting before your precious th/ss as well as an overlord who is the same but has 3 wounds. hell together that unit would have 19 s7 attacks on the charge. I'd like to see 15 th/ss termies take that.
Or vargard obyron with ws6, s7, a3 and a bonus attack up to 6 bonus attacks for every attack the enemy unit fails to hit with. That guy could take 5 th/ss on his own. So on the off chance that the termies even wound obyron, the next turn round he can just teleport away and kill something else =O. SO with only about half of the cc bruisers in only 2 seperate codexes we have proven that th/ss aren't as invincible as they are made out to be, though they are still a choice as solid as, well, a terminator. Any questions Children?