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Bit inspired by all the KS and KS comments recently, should newer miniature companies try to avoid metal and go for plastics?
With all the recent KS and other newer miniature lines, some making metal miniatures (resin too) and others making plastic, I am wondering what is the general opinion about what materials people make miniatures out of in this 'new generation' of wargaming miniatures.

I suppose though dakka is a bit baised towards one side. In quite a few of the topics in the news people have expressed their distaste in metal and clamor for plastics, very rarely the opposite. And there seems to also be a bit more liking towards hard plastic than other types

Of course. Metal is pure crap. Sucks to paint, sucks to convert.

I think plastic is the goal ultimately, but its still not *that* affordable, especially with risky releases.

Correct. There is no excuse for doing metal miniatures anymore if small Kickstarter companies can go full plastic.

I don't mind metal if it's character models. If we're talking about full lines of minis for a game, then the bulk of it should be in plastic.

I dig metal and resin. Whatever Finecast stuff is isn't too bad in my book. But that's more for static pieces that I like to mostly look at or present more than play.

I can understand that plastics seem more practical for armies and the customization that is called for in some of these armies in order to be competitive.

While I wouldn't like to see the abandonment of producing metal figs, I think it would be to the benefit of newer companies, when starting out, to provide something more manageable like plastic... once they hit it big maybe they can do showy metal/resin pieces.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Correct. There is no excuse for doing metal miniatures anymore if small Kickstarter companies can go full plastic.

There are good reasons to make things in metal even when plastic is affordable. The advantages of plastic (lightweight, easier to work with) come at a cost to detail and casting quality. Kickstarters aren't appropriate for everything and won't always work, so many small companies are taking on a very big risk by investing in plastic casting moulds. A lot of smaller companies are really small, it's a niche hobby.

Absolutely not. Companies should do what they want and customers should vote with their wallets. Don't want metals? Stop buying them.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Correct. There is no excuse for doing metal miniatures anymore if small Kickstarter companies can go full plastic.

There are good reasons to make things in metal even when metal is affordable. The advantages of plastic (lightweight, easier to work with) come at a cost to detail and casting quality. Kickstarters aren't appropriate for everything and won't always work, so many small companies are taking on a very big risk by investing in plastic casting moulds. A lot of smaller companies are really small, it's a niche hobby.

Also, plastic isn't that affordable. Take Empire of the Dead, for example. They intend to release 79 individual miniatures, several vehicles and up to a dozen Kickstarter exclusives. How much do you reckon plastic moulds for all that would cost? A bit more than the ca £60k they have in the KS right now, I'd wager. For something as niche as Victorian steampunk, going plastic just isn't an option.

I think metal is great, the problem is that it's an expensive material in the long term. Plastic is a cheap material in the long term...but it's only cost effective when you're able to sell thousands of casts of the mould that you made.

Precisely, and not all miniatures can support those numbers. Some just don't have mass-market appeal and never will.

Metals have a much, much lower start up cost.

Molds for metal castings are a lot cheaper and a lot faster to make. They are made from rubber, and can be made by most folks with a little bit of training.

Resinous plastics can also be made with a relatively inexpensive mold, though both waste and QA become serious matters, and worse, are in opposition each to each.

Molds for injection plastics are very expensive, being made from steel, and time consuming to make.

From what I gather from the Reaper forums a skilled technician that is qualified to make those steel molds pulls down around $150,000 US per annum. So, most often, the mold making will be work for hire. GW can afford to keep such a professional on staff, but it is not an option for, well, pretty much anyone else.

So... which material to aim for depends on quantity produced - I was quite happy with the Stonehaven releases in metal. I was quite happy with the Mantic releases that are coming out in plastic. I am NOT pleased with the resins coming out from GW, largely because of piss-poor QA, but am quite happy, for the most part, with the GW injection plastics. (Not buying them - too darned expensive, but no regular complaints aside from price. Though I really do not like the style of a lot of their recent releases.)

The Auld Grump

The fact you can get a high quality 3d printer for under £2,000 now producing plastics to order for a fair price, plastics are the way forward.

Plastic is desirable for it's convertability (for gamers) and lower material cost (for companies)

that's offset by massivly higher startup costs and reduced (how much depends on the plastic & skill of the sculptoer & mould maker) potential detail

so wanting every company to go plastic only is not a sensible idea.

Wanting companies that expect to/already do sell 10s of thousands of an individual sculpt to make that particular sculpt in plastic, yes please

I think that a mini company should strive to sell models that can be afforded by the producer and satisfy the customer.

Plastic's very much a luxury, not an industry standard, in my opinion. I do like plastic, but I want an affordable quality miniature that doesn't endanger the producer's business first and foremost

It doesn't always have to be hard sprue plastic, either.

All of Mantic's KoW Kickstarter output (except maybe the character models? I don't really remember) will be in the cheaper sprue-less plastic. That suits me just fine. Even though I would prefer "proper" plastic.

A lot of companies are doing plastic/resin on the cheap too. Reaper Bones, Trollforged, Black Scorpion, etc.

I'll stick with Freebooter Miniatures metal line, since I'm heavily invested in it already. But I'll not start collecting anymore new games or whatnot that's not some form of plastic. It's just too much of an expensive hassle.

ammp wrote:
The fact you can get a high quality 3d printer for under £2,000 now producing plastics to order for a fair price, plastics are the way forward.

Really, well, and truly not germaine at the current time - the time taken to produce a model using a 3D printer, at the current state of the art, prohibits that method from actually having much of an impact.

The quality produced, again at state of the art, also precludes using it for any finely detailed items.

That said - for much terrain and some vehicles a solid free form fabricator is viable, and will eventually become something that miniatures companies must keep an eye on.

The state of the art is constantly advancing, but it just is not there yet - but close enough for GW to start issuing C&D requests....

The Auld Grump

New companies should really do what they think will sell.

Personally I buy as few metal miniatures as possible because quire frankly I can't stand them. Much prefer plastic.

For me, the most important step the industry can take is to produce affordable rank-and-file that I want to own. Any company that works exclusively in metal - or in many restics - is incapable of achieving that step, and so I have no real desire to help them succeed.

That's short sighted, many smaller companies need to start somewhere and have a successful range and money in the bank before changing to plastic. Expecting them to just churn out masses of plastics is silly, as is the general phobia of metal miniatures that seems to becoming more common. All these plastic wargames models appearing is a recent trend, some people expect too much.

I would say go plastic.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
That's short sighted, many smaller companies need to start somewhere and have a successful range and money in the bank before changing to plastic.

True, but I'm not going to give someone money in the hopes that they are one of the few that make the change and not one of the dozens that don't. Hell, Mantic was making models in proper plastic, then backslid to restic at double the price.

If they can afford to do it, then they should, IMO. With that said, I understand it's expensive and I have no problem with resin, or even metal models, especially if they're small-scale skirmish games.

I have no problem with metal minis, provided they're quality sculpts, and there's enough diversity in the range to avoid repetition (since it's so much harder to convert them).

It really depends on the minis that they are producing. If they're producing multi-part rank and file models that are intended to be fielded en-masse, or character models that are intended to be customisable, then certainly plastic is the way to go.

Metal comes into its own for 'character pieces'... The sort of models produced by companies like Hasslefree and Studio McVey's limited editions really belong in metal or resin for the extra detail.

 insaniak wrote:
It really depends on the minis that they are producing. If they're producing multi-part rank and file models that are intended to be fielded en-masse, or character models that are intended to be customisable, then certainly plastic is the way to go.

Metal comes into its own for 'character pieces'... The sort of models produced by companies like Hasslefree and Studio McVey's limited editions really belong in metal or resin for the extra detail.

This.

A good example is Corvus Belli - they're consistently said they're a metal manufacturing company. Take Infinity - this reflects this attitude perfectly. There's very little reason to buy multiples of a given model unless you want to run a fireteam, and even then, they're made up of 3-5 entirely individual models with different loadouts and abilities, designed to break their link formation and go their separate ways when they need to. So the closest you get are the Fireteam boxes, which are still 4 entirely individually armed models, designed as a box mostly to reduce the SKUs stores need to stock than anything else. It is essentially a range of character peices.

Not to mention model detail. They have some of the finest sci fi models on the market, due to how chock full of detail they are. Undercuts are very obviously used - something plastic just can't do. So not only would they be moving to a system not beneficial to them in terms of cost (individual gamers aren't buying multiples of any models, outside of the odd link team that doesn't have a box yet), but also would be going to a medium that would sacrifice the detail they put into their miniatures.

The game just doesn't make plastic financial viable for Corvus Belli, and plastic is detrimental to the model range anyway. Anima Tactics is another game that fits this method of producing miniatures.

Companies going for mass battle games have reasons to go for plastic, since individual model detail is less important and the cost saving on multiples of of the exact same boxes that will be sold is beneficial.

Another reason to go for metal is that it gives the designers a feat deal more control over the manufacturing process. If one looks at recent plastic success stories from Dreamforge and Wyrd, one sees a process largely outsourced to China and reliant upon a partner (in both cases, Wargames Factory). In the UK, the Perrys and Mantic alike rely upon Renedra (although both are increasingly looking abroad for cheaper sources with greater volume output).

Compare this with little enterprises like Heresy, Hasslefree and Brigade Models. They retain manufacturing control either by in-house casting that gives them full retention of profits, or outsource them to services within reach. It is also a terrific way of petting designs into production with astonishing speed. A traditional sculptor can deliver a design within 24 hours (they usually don't, but it is possible), which can be master cast, moulded and spun within another 48 hours. With metal, it is possible to go from paper to blister in under a week. Not so with plastics.

The exception, though, is plastics of the Privateer Press or Bones style, which are essentially traditional metal castings using new materials. The state of the art is still a bit murky, there, but these products could show old school metal casters a new way ahead.

R.

Every small garage company should start with a 500.000 $ investment to see if they sell 5 boxes or not
Boo for the losers who don't have 500.000 $ to burn, boo for the sculptors who hate to avoid undercuts

I'd certainly prefer resin or plastic to metal, that's for sure. I'm not a fan of metal, unless it's the headbanging sort.

On the other hand, there is something more satisfying about picking up and holding a metal miniature. That feeling is nearly completely offset by the feeling you have if you drop it and the paint chips off real bad though.Glue a nickel in the base instead, I say.

I like metal if the sculpts arn't too difficult to convert.

I like metal models, as that is what I grew up with. This being said, some companies should consider plastic, as they cannot keep up with demand with metal or resin.