Rage Quit

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**Megildur_Dorsidhion**

I have a friend who plays Space Marines, and I play Eldar. He is starting to get frustrated with me because I always win. He feels that if I take out his anti-tank options that he physically can't win because I use always use at least my NS. Any thoughts on how to help him do better without using a predator tank or a devastator squad. Neither of those have helped him in the past.

**pretre**

Wow. It is going to take a lot more information than this to provide you with any assistance.

We would need to know what kind of list he is fielding and what kind of units he has available to add to it.

**A GumyBear**

He should bring multiple AT units not just depend on one unit. A biker captain with a blob of bikes with meltas does wonders against tanks. Drop podding sternguard with combi meltas is good. Even basic Tacs with ML and melta with a rhino combat squading does good. If he is complaining that you killed his one hope of killing you he should bring more of his one hope. If he brings one pred he should bring two. Its basic target saturation and redundancy tactics. Either bring multiples of his pred/devs or field multiple units that can threaten tanks. Meltabikers wouls probably be the best because they can keep up with the speed of the eldar vehicles or some long range things like Autolas preds and hellfire dreads etc.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, never forget about your trusty krak grenades on your basic marines

**troa**

What all does he normally use? And if tanks are his issue, he needs more anti-tank. Storm Ravens can do this well if no one has skyfire, but still die to lucky shots frequently in my experience.

**Zoxy**

swap armies for a few games

Then he can understand how you use yours and you can show him how to use his

**Lord Yayula**

A GumyBear wrote:
He should bring multiple AT units not just depend on one unit. A biker captain with a blob of bikes with meltas does wonders against tanks. Drop podding sternguard with combi meltas is good. Even basic Tacs with ML and melta with a rhino combat squading does good. If he is complaining that you killed his one hope of killing you he should bring more of his one hope. If he brings one pred he should bring two. Its basic target saturation and redundancy tactics. Either bring multiples of his pred/devs or field multiple units that can threaten tanks. Meltabikers wouls probably be the best because they can keep up with the speed of the eldar vehicles or some long range things like Autolas preds and hellfire dreads etc.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, never forget about your trusty krak grenades on your basic marines

I dunno how is the OP playing his eldar but the way they are played on my LGS there is no way a squad of marines/bikes can survive long enough to take out the tanks. The last eldar list i faced was something around 4-5 waveserpents, 1 falcon and 1 prism tank (sp?) the one with several blast profiles ap3-2. If the OP is fielding something like that maybe only deepstriking meltas (either pods or assmarines) could help him, those 7 tanks shoot way too much S7 & S6 shots, an avg of 5 wounds per tank against T5 with some high str low ap shots going off as well, you either have a full assault army so that you lose some of your units and let the rest get into AT range or play all long range AT which marines doesn't have that much aside from devastators, the only unit in my army (CSM) which were able to perform OK were nurgle oblies behind cover, the rest of the army was focused one unit at a time.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

troa wrote:
What all does he normally use? And if tanks are his issue, he needs more anti-tank. Storm Ravens can do this well if no one has skyfire, but still die to lucky shots frequently in my experience.

If fielding just one flyer It'll die one turn after appearing on the table due to the eldar vector dancer flyer, unless you can intercept him, 2 lance shots against your back armor are pretty much a dead flyer.

**Purifier**

Zoxy wrote:
swap armies for a few games

Then he can understand how you use yours and you can show him how to use his

This. If you can beat him with his army it should give him some good ideas on how to beat you.

**washout77**

Yeah, if he repeatedly gets stomped by tanks and armor that usually means he needs more anti-tank. He can't expect to keep bringing the same list against the same list and opponent and expect the results to be different (although, luck plays a role since we're talking about dice here).

Some more info could be more useful;

What does he currently use for AT? What does the rest of his list look like? What other models does he have that he could add to his army? If he is relying on 1-2 units to take care of tanks, then he needs more because a smart player would notice that and kill those units so he has no AT (which, it appears you are capable of doing)

**labmouse42**

Zoxy wrote:
swap armies for a few games

Then he can understand how you use yours and you can show him how to use his

Excellent advice.

You might also want to handi-cap yourself and play weaker units for a while. After all, if you curb-stomp him all the time he will lose interest. Then who will you play?

**Lobokai**

Wow. Vague posts are vague

The SM codex has tons of AT options:
PF (which almost every unit can take)
CF
Melta Bombs, Guns, Multi melta
TH
LC
Vindicators
Orbital Strikes
ML
Dreadnaught CCW

Almost every HQ has AT options. 8 of 8 elites can go AT, 2 of 2 troops have AT weapons, 6 of 8 FA have AT options, 7 of 9 heavy options have AT, even 3 of 5 DT have AT weapons. Tell your friend to read this post, cause I'll tell him something that you probably shouldn't: to man up, stop whining, put some thought and maybe a few $$ into his list. He's playing probably the strongest AT codex in the game and is behaving like a little kid about it. Winning takes effort, not whining.

**ZebioLizard2**

Lobukia wrote:
Wow. Vague posts are vague

The SM codex has tons of AT options:
PF (which almost every unit can take)
CF
Melta Bombs, Guns, Multi melta
TH
LC
Vindicators
Orbital Strikes
ML
Dreadnaught CCW

Almost every HQ has AT options. 8 of 8 elites can go AT, 2 of 2 troops have AT weapons, 6 of 8 FA have AT options, 7 of 9 heavy options have AT, even 3 of 5 DT have AT weapons. Tell your friend to read this post, cause I'll tell him something that you probably shouldn't: to man up, stop whining, put some thought and maybe a few $$ into his list. He's playing probably the strongest AT codex in the game and is behaving like a little kid about it. Winning takes effort, not whining.

TH/Melta bombs/CF/PF are not getting anywhere close to an eldar tank, are you serious?
Nobody takes Orbital Strikes unless it's on a SC they use
Dreadnought won't survive.

The only real option is ranged anti-tank, and I mean actual range, not multi-melta hope for the best, not to mention melta is a bit worse with serpants ignoring pens on 2+

**Kangodo**

Well, if nothing survives than there isn't much we can do.
Your anti-tank units should easily survive when you draw his attention to other places.
Hell, a few termies should easily deal with that and if they don't than the opponent has bigger issues than just one tank.

A good game is all about giving your opponents lose-lose options:
-Do you want to prevent my AT from killing the tank?
-Or do you want to stop my troops from giving me VP's that will win me the game?

**Lobokai**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

TH/Melta bombs/CF/PF are not getting anywhere close to an eldar tank, are you serious?
Nobody takes Orbital Strikes unless it's on a SC they use
Dreadnought won't survive.

The only real option is ranged anti-tank, and I mean actual range, not multi-melta hope for the best, not to mention melta is a bit worse with serpants ignoring pens on 2+

Um, yeah, pretty serious (do you play marines!?)

Well Space Marines have these things called drop pods, kinda popular around here (that will get any gun in range)... as will any thing with fire points
Jump Infantry can easily get to an eldar tank (they can take TH/MB/and PF, you know)
Dreadnoughts don't need to survive the battle, and they do have excellent AT options, especially against fragile Eldar (everything is at best AV 12 with 10 rear and 3 HP).
Plus bike, landspeeders, and such can get to rear armour pretty easy with that MM that you don't think matters... or a drop podding Dread (suck that Serpent Shield)

Not to mention, not every AT weapon needs to be able to kill a fresh tank. They can get immobilized, shaken, etc... range weapons can do enough damage to make it an infantry CC target and then move on to the next target. All Eldar armour is only AV 12, and yeah, Serpent Shields are nice, but you still get the glance and they only have 3 HP... so glance it 3 times. One drop squad of Sternguard can mess up a couple tanks in one alpha. If they're taking Spirit Stones and Vectored Engines, great that's a ton of points in an AV 12 HP 3 Target.

I'm not saying Eldar suck, or SM are an auto win. But the SM codex is one of the best at killing tanks, especially fragile ones (not AV 13 or 14). Its a little confusing that you don't see all the DS MM options and fast attack PF and MB as being very good options for friendly club play... and its certainly odd for an SM player to whine that he can't drop Wave Serpents, Fire Prisms, and the like.

**Makumba**

but If he puts his anti tank in reservs and goes second there is a good chance that a serpent based eldar army will wipe him off the board , unless they play big games larger then 1500pts,

**Lobokai**

Makumba wrote:
but If he puts his anti tank in reservs and goes second there is a good chance that a serpent based eldar army will wipe him off the board , unless they play big games larger then 1500pts,

A decent Crimson Fist Drop Pod army can run with an all Serpent force pretty easily... especially if you know its coming (tailor building might actually be the answer here, at least in the short term)

@OP, what's your list and what does your friend have? If we see what you run and what models he has, it won't be tough to tailor something that can run with you in competent hands, or we can tell him were a little $ can go a long way.

**Ailaros**

Megildur_Dorsidhion wrote:He is starting to get frustrated with me because I always win. Any thoughts on how to help

You've got it completely backwards.

Really, you've got to be asking for help for yourself, not your friend. You're in a situation where you're playing a game in such a way that is so frustrating to your opponents that you're driving them to quit playing the game. The matter at hand is what you can do to provide a more enjoyable experience for your friend, not what your friends is doing wrong, or how they're being a bad person because they're getting upset and not wanting to play.

If you're providing a boring game experience and your friend doesn't want to play, that is NOT the same as him rage quitting. The fact that you think so betrays the exact reasons you're getting into this problem in the first place.

Yes, spend some time explaining things to your friend to help clear up some misconceptions, but when you're done with that, the best thing you can probably do is start playing with a handicap. Because, really, if your only options, in your case, are to play 40k without a wave serpent, or to not play 40k at all, then the former seems far more prudent than the latter.

At some point, if your friend enjoys his games of 40k enough to continue playing, he'll get to the point where you no longer have to take it quite so easy on him. Refusing to be flexible, though, leads to a moral victory that is Pyrrhic, at its absolute best.

**akaean**

The trick to beating Eldar is to keep your army together, hold more objectives than your opponent, and forcing them to engage you in a protacted firefight. The new Eldar have some pretty awesome shooting, so now do much better in fire fights, but Space Marines should still have the upper hand. Eldar operate best when they can isolate and kill units to mitigate return fire.

To defeat Wave Serpents you need high volume of fire, and oftentimes this can feel unnatural in a Space Marine List, which often tend to rely on high power single shot weapons like Melta guns. Due to the Serpent Shield rule, and probably holofields, you want to focus on Hull Point Drain.

Landspeeder Typhoon squadrons held in reserve can move on and alpha strike an Eldar tank, same with the Storm Talon. Also note that the Storm Talon can beat the Eldar Flyer if it comes in after it. Eldar don't have much infiltrate, so alpha striking them is helpful.

Riflemen Dreads with 2 tl auto cannons can put a lot of pressure and drain a few hullpoints from Eldar tanks.

Predator with 2 las cannons + Auto Cannon turret is also dangeorus to Eldar, especailly if the Serepnt has fired off its shield.

Bike Squads are very fast, and multiple squads of them can catch and overwhelm mech eldar. Go big or go home, captain on a bike and 3-4 squads of 6 will be needed to apply enough pressure.

Its important however to take several anti tank options, because the eldar will try to focus out their counters. And always keep your head on your shoulders. Remember that as soon as a Wave Serpent uses its shield to improve its shooting it is vulnerable to any meltas you can drop pod in or get close with bikes. Also remember that if he is firing dakka serpents at a Rifle Men dread, he isn't shooting the Bikes closing in on him with Melta Guns and Krak Grenades.

Mech Eldar wins by leveraging superior mobility while targeting counters to that mobility, its how they won last codex, and now they do it better. But if you provide a list where everything is a threat to the Eldar, they won't be able to target their counters in time, and you can overwhelm them. Once they are overwhelmed and in a protracted firefight, Space Marines have the advantage.

**ZebioLizard2**

Lobukia wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:

TH/Melta bombs/CF/PF are not getting anywhere close to an eldar tank, are you serious?
Nobody takes Orbital Strikes unless it's on a SC they use
Dreadnought won't survive.

The only real option is ranged anti-tank, and I mean actual range, not multi-melta hope for the best, not to mention melta is a bit worse with serpants ignoring pens on 2+

Um, yeah, pretty serious (do you play marines!?)

Well Space Marines have these things called drop pods, kinda popular around here (that will get any gun in range)... as will any thing with fire points
Jump Infantry can easily get to an eldar tank (they can take TH/MB/and PF, you know)
Dreadnoughts don't need to survive the battle, and they do have excellent AT options, especially against fragile Eldar (everything is at best AV 12 with 10 rear and 3 HP).
Plus bike, landspeeders, and such can get to rear armour pretty easy with that MM that you don't think matters... or a drop podding Dread (suck that Serpent Shield)

Not to mention, not every AT weapon needs to be able to kill a fresh tank. They can get immobilized, shaken, etc... range weapons can do enough damage to make it an infantry CC target and then move on to the next target. All Eldar armour is only AV 12, and yeah, Serpent Shields are nice, but you still get the glance and they only have 3 HP... so glance it 3 times. One drop squad of Sternguard can mess up a couple tanks in one alpha. If they're taking Spirit Stones and Vectored Engines, great that's a ton of points in an AV 12 HP 3 Target.

I'm not saying Eldar suck, or SM are an auto win. But the SM codex is one of the best at killing tanks, especially fragile ones (not AV 13 or 14). Its a little confusing that you don't see all the DS MM options and fast attack PF and MB as being very good options for friendly club play... and its certainly odd for an SM player to whine that he can't drop Wave Serpents, Fire Prisms, and the like.

Yes drop pods will get things in range, but that doesn't refute anything I said.

Jump infantry for C:SM are pretty bad, and usually won't get close, and generally are a waste of points.

Seeing as you said Dreadnought CCW, I think they'll still be dead before then, they can suicide drop if need be as you just now said.

Bike/landspeeders yeah they'll do better. Though landspeeders with their mass S7 will be hurting landspeeder

Generally your best options are drop-pod melta squads, so yeah.

**ClassicCarraway**

While the OP hasn't posted his typical list yet, its been my experience (in my area anyway) that most rage quits are caused by excessive spamming and min-maxing.

A friend of mine has basically quit playing at the local gaming store because everybody there does nothing but spam and min-max. No CSM army is complete without maxed plague marines and heldrakes, no Tau army is without its max missilesides and riptides. Of course, now Eldar are spamming the once much-maligned Wave Serpent.

Spam lists are fine for tournaments, but really have no place in friendly games (not if you want to keep them friendly). If the OP is fielding a spam list, maybe by easing up on that he might not lose a regular opponent.

**Ailaros**

That entirely depends on what you're spamming. I don't see why a guard army that spams ogryn isn't suitable for "friendly" play.

Spamming just allows you to accomplish what you're trying to accomplish better. It gives a player more power to do what he wants. It's how he directs that power to which ends that is what's important here.

**dementedwombat**

Ailaros wrote:

Really, you've got to be asking for help for yourself, not your friend. You're in a situation where you're playing a game in such a way that is so frustrating to your opponents that you're driving them to quit playing the game. The matter at hand is what you can do to provide a more enjoyable experience for your friend, not what your friends is doing wrong, or how they're being a bad person because they're getting upset and not wanting to play.

If you're providing a boring game experience and your friend doesn't want to play, that is NOT the same as him rage quitting. The fact that you think so betrays the exact reasons you're getting into this problem in the first place.

Yes, spend some time explaining things to your friend to help clear up some misconceptions, but when you're done with that, the best thing you can probably do is start playing with a handicap. Because, really, if your only options, in your case, are to play 40k without a wave serpent, or to not play 40k at all, then the former seems far more prudent than the latter.

At some point, if your friend enjoys his games of 40k enough to continue playing, he'll get to the point where you no longer have to take it quite so easy on him. Refusing to be flexible, though, leads to a moral victory that is Pyrrhic, at its absolute best.

You got my exalt. Thanks for that piece of advice actually. It solved some of my problems about whether I should keep playing my Tau. I just made up a list that (to me at least) looks incredibly fun to play even though it's not nearly at the level of competitiveness most Tau lists bring to the table.

Check it out if you want, or not, since this is totally off topic:

Spoiler:

**Super Ready**

Umm... that Tau list looks pretty damn effective to me.

Quick question - how do you usually take out his anti-tank? And (sorry if I missed it) exactly what anti-tank is he taking? If it's only one Predator or only one Devastator squad it's understandable that it's getting taken out.

**Makumba**

(tailor building might actually be the answer here, at least in the short term)

Tailoring lists makes zero sense to me. Only thing it does is start and arms race between players and end with those that can't army hop fast enough to quit the game .

**Lobokai**

Makumba wrote:
(tailor building might actually be the answer here, at least in the short term)

Tailoring lists makes zero sense to me. Only thing it does is start and arms race between players and end with those that can't army hop fast enough to quit the game .

Normally I'd agree, but it seems like the silent OP has a 1v1 with his pal all the time. Already one player has all the horses in the race. It would be like playing against the same CronAir list over and over again without any AA options... pointless. If we can point the inept SM player to some good units and a list that can compete with this Eldar list, then the game has a point. The arms race is already happened, its just one sided. I don't think army hopping is an issue. We're clearly talking about friends playing the same armies over and over. Sorry simple things don't make sense to you

**Megildur_Dorsidhion**

We generally play around 1000 points. He has a tendency try and fit in a Predator tank with las cannons all the way around. He has two tactical squads which I think he runs with a ML each. He sometimes runs a scout squad with the mortar. He has switches between a chaplain and a captain as his HQ. He has a couple of Dreadnoughts that he rarely uses.

I tend to use a nightspinner and a prism as my heavies, with 9 DA with a Farseer in a serpent. I keep a squad of 4 GJB in reserve, along with my 5 man Warp Spider squad. I use a 10 man squad of Guardian defenders with an EML to sit on back field objectives and take pot shots.

I usually deep strike my Warp Spiders to take the rear armor of his Pred, and then bounce around harassing the backfield for as long as they can survive. If he doesn't take a vehicle they are used to cripple which ever unit is most threatening. I don't care about necessarily winning the game with them so much as causing him trouble with advancing his army. GJB usually come ing late to mid game to take mid objectives behind cover or to shoot weakened 2-3 man squads sitting on objectives. My NS shot at to try maximize the amount of squads covered in 5th, and are now being used to hit squads he wants to keep hidden behind cover. Fire prism goes for harder targets, and I try to shoot at targets so that if I scatter it scatters on to something else, so the shot isn't a total waste. Farseer with the Serpent and Avengers try to also take midfield objectives. I also try to hug table edges to protect my rear armor, and funnel him into the middle of the table.

Neither of us has anything Flyers or ways to deal with flyers effectively.

**Grey Templar**

He shouldn't be running a captain ever. Captains and Chapter Masters are overpriced compared to Librarians and Chaplains.

Also, he needs to ditch the triple lascannon predator. too expensive. Run it with lascannon sponsons and the stock autocannon turret instead. That will make it much cheaper and Str7 is still pretty effective against eldar armor.

I would also recommend bumping up the points to 1500. 1000 is just about on the too small side for vanilla marines to play effectively. They have to spend too much of the point total on troops.

You have to take a tactical squad at full size to have it be anything other than a squad of bolters. That's 170 points minimum. So 340 points for 2 missile launchers of effectiveness. Add in 100+ point HQ and you are looking at only 500ish points of actual teeth.

You are playing at a point level where space marines have a major handicap.

**troa**

If your Warp Spiders are causing him the trouble, as you seem to indicate based on so much talk about them, you may want to just leave them up and go with a more straightforward army. Otherwise...Have him ditch the single vehicle thing, it just tends to not do well in general, as it's a fire magnet. When so many points are tied into it, it's a very expensive fire magnet.

**ClassicCarraway**

Grey Templar wrote:
Also, he needs to ditch the triple lascannon predator. too expensive. Run it with lascannon sponsons and the stock autocannon turret instead. That will make it much cheaper and Str7 is still pretty effective against eldar armor.

I would also recommend bumping up the points to 1500. 1000 is just about on the too small side for vanilla marines to play effectively. They have to spend too much of the point total on troops.

You have to take a tactical squad at full size to have it be anything other than a squad of bolters. That's 170 points minimum. So 340 points for 2 missile launchers of effectiveness. Add in 100+ point HQ and you are looking at only 500ish points of actual teeth.

You are playing at a point level where space marines have a major handicap.

I have to disagree with the trip lascannon predator. Yes, its more expensive than it should be, but at 1000 points, its really the only reliable way he will ever be able to deal with those Eldar tanks. Sorry, but Autocannons are not reliable against AV12 with jink saves, not even close. The downside is, the Predator is toast the second those Warpspiders drop in, so he's generally getting two shots max with it. He's paying more, but at least those 1-2 rounds of shooting have a better chance at actually doing something meaningful.

I completely agree with you on the points level, and this points out a glaring issue with the Eldar codex. At 1000 points, an Eldar army can come fully stocked with great to very useful units, simply because their more elite units are often so fast or difficult to pin down, they don't need alot of them to be effective. Space Marines, on the other hand, come stocked with mediocre to hardly useful units that need to be taken in max squads. Other armies have this same problem.

Seriously, there probably aren't many C:SM builds that stand a chance against the list the OP is throwing out. The Fire Prism, Night Spinner, and WS by themselves dish out enough firepower to level half the army in turn one.

**Mark1130**

A GumyBear wrote:
He should bring multiple AT units not just depend on one unit. A biker captain with a blob of bikes with meltas does wonders against tanks. Drop podding sternguard with combi meltas is good. Even basic Tacs with ML and melta with a rhino combat squading does good. If he is complaining that you killed his one hope of killing you he should bring more of his one hope. If he brings one pred he should bring two. Its basic target saturation and redundancy tactics. Either bring multiples of his pred/devs or field multiple units that can threaten tanks. Meltabikers wouls probably be the best because they can keep up with the speed of the eldar vehicles or some long range things like Autolas preds and hellfire dreads etc.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, never forget about your trusty krak grenades on your basic marines

I frikin LOVE your signature. Just wanted to say that.

**-Loki-**

Megildur_Dorsidhion wrote:
We generally play around 1000 points. He has a tendency try and fit in a Predator tank with las cannons all the way around. He has two tactical squads which I think he runs with a ML each. He sometimes runs a scout squad with the mortar. He has switches between a chaplain and a captain as his HQ. He has a couple of Dreadnoughts that he rarely uses.

I tend to use a nightspinner and a prism as my heavies, with 9 DA with a Farseer in a serpent. I keep a squad of 4 GJB in reserve, along with my 5 man Warp Spider squad. I use a 10 man squad of Guardian defenders with an EML to sit on back field objectives and take pot shots.

He's packing a triple Lascannon Predator, two Tactical squads with Missile launchers and a Scout Squad with a missile launcher (they don't get mortars, the only weapon I can assume you mean is another missile launcher), and he can't deal with a Fire Prism, Wave Serpent and a Nightspinner before all of that is gone?

He's got plenty of anti tank already, and the rundown you gave is only roughly 700pts including the Scouts, so he's hiding 300pts more in there. He can easily fit those two dreadnoughts in, which can pack even more anti tank firepower. It's not anti tank firepower that's easy to kill either - your Fireprism isn't a guaranteed kill on the Predator if you go first, and it's got a far better chance to kill the Fire Prism. He's got buried missile launchers in his army as well, and S8 is plenty against Eldar.

Something seems wrong here.