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In a nutshell, do defensive grenades remove bonuses from special abilities like furious charge and hammer of wrath or do they only remove the additional charge attack?

The Defensive Grenade rules specify exactly what they do. Check the Index of the BRB for the page number for Defensive Grenades.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Defensive Grenade rules specify exactly what they do. Check the Index of the BRB for the page number for Defensive Grenades.

I think what "deathreaper" means to say is; Defensive grenades only remove the bonus attack a unit would normally receive from charging.

 JEREMSTER wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Defensive Grenade rules specify exactly what they do. Check the Index of the BRB for the page number for Defensive Grenades.

I think what "deathreaper" means to say is; Defensive grenades only remove the bonus attack a unit would normally receive from charging.

what he really meant to say was "what does the rule say?"

It's a fair question. I'd say that they do not negate Rage and hammer of Wrath, only the normal charge bonus.

I'm pretty sure rage is negated as it's still the same bonus attacks for charging, it's just +2 instead of +1.

"Models charging units equipped with defensive grenades do not gain bonus Attacks from charging"

Hammer of Wrath and Rage give you extra attacks for charging. If you define 'extra attacks' as 'bonus attacks' then yes. If not, then no. I'm gonna go with the first one.

Rage yes. HoW no.

Dont have the BRB in front of me, but doesn't Furious Charge only give +1 Str? It gave an extra attack in 5th, so maybe thats what you are thinking of.

Moridan wrote:
Dont have the BRB in front of me, but doesn't Furious Charge only give +1 Str? It gave an extra attack in 5th, so maybe thats what you are thinking of.

It was actually +1 Strength and Initiative in 5th Ed, not Attacks. You are right about Furious Charge in this edition though.

Dra'al Nacht wrote:

Moridan wrote:
Dont have the BRB in front of me, but doesn't Furious Charge only give +1 Str? It gave an extra attack in 5th, so maybe thats what you are thinking of.

It was actually +1 Strength and Initiative in 5th Ed, not Attacks. You are right about Furious Charge in this edition though.

Gotcha, thanks 9-)

So to answer the OP, No to both.

FC-no
HoW-no
Rage-yes

yawwwwwwn

lets see bonuses for charging
+1 attack for charging
rage
hammer of wrath
rites of battle
furious charge

all these things require that you charge

ergo defensive grenades deny the bonus for charging effectively making it so that you havent charged and there for loose all the above and any other extras unique to your army

Chris Lysander wrote:
ergo defensive grenades deny the bonus for charging effectively making it so that you havent charged and there for loose all the above and any other extras unique to your army

Citation required.

Chris Lysander wrote:
yawwwwwwn

lets see bonuses for charging
+1 attack for charging
rage
hammer of wrath
rites of battle
furious charge

all these things require that you charge

ergo defensive grenades deny the bonus for charging effectively making it so that you havent charged and there for loose all the above and any other extras unique to your army

Yawwwwwwn
You are just making things up. It says that they do not get bonus attacks, nothing about denying other bonuses. Hammer of wrath would be denied because it specifically says that it is an attack at I10 (BRB 37). Furious charge says nothing about extra attacks only that you do not receive the bonus if your charge is disordered. IMO you would receive the bonus for furious charge as it is not an attack, merely a modifier of strength.

 jamin484 wrote:

Chris Lysander wrote:
yawwwwwwn

lets see bonuses for charging
+1 attack for charging
rage
hammer of wrath
rites of battle
furious charge

all these things require that you charge

ergo defensive grenades deny the bonus for charging effectively making it so that you havent charged and there for loose all the above and any other extras unique to your army

Yawwwwwwn
You are just making things up. It says that they do not get bonus attacks, nothing about denying other bonuses. Hammer of wrath would be denied because it specifically says that it is an attack at I10 (BRB 37). Furious charge says nothing about extra attacks only that you do not receive the bonus if your charge is disordered. IMO you would receive the bonus for furious charge as it is not an attack, merely a modifier of strength.

Defensive Grenades affect the bonus attack from charging (pg 24). It does not affect the Special Rule of Hammer of Wrath nor has any affect on FC.

What they said. Its just the bonus attacks from Charging. So Rage is effected (since it just increases the number of the bonus attacks) but not Hammer of Wrath. Look more carefully at the wording of Hammer of Wrath and I'm sure you'll see why.

Perhaps you are right but I feel it is ambiguous at best. I hope you are right because I play white scars. Here is the rule for hammer of wrath, followed by the rule for defensive grenades

If a model with this special rule charges and ends its charge move in base contact with one or more enemy models, it makes one additional Attack that hits automatically and is resolved at the model’s unmodified Strength with an AP of – [i](BRB 37)

[i]Models charging units equipped with defensive grenades do not gain bonus attacks from charging (see page 24) (BRB 62)

Is hammer of wrath a bonus attack? If not why not?

D. Grenades specifically refer to the bonus attacks from charging listed on page 24. Hammer of Wrath is not one of those listed bonus attacks.

I think it affects all of them, P62 refers to "bonus Attacks".

P24 only ever refers to "bonus Attacks" once, and that encapuslates three bullet points, which includes "Other bonuses" Which as I understand it, would include HoW.

?

Andrew

How is furious charge a bonus attack?

HoW is not listed as a bonus attack for charging.

It has its own specific rules so it is not taken away by defensive grenades.

P24 has the following second paragraph;

Each engaged model makes a number of Attacks (A) as indicated on its characteristics profile, plus the following bonus Attacks:
(emphasis mine)

* +1 Charge Bonus....
* +1 Two Weapon....
* Other bonuses: Models may have special rules and wargear that confer extra Attacks.

So the term bonus Attacks encompass three seperate areas as per P24, the last of which covers special rules, which include such things as HoW though probably not furious charge because the bullet point refers to abilities that give extra attacks.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
P24 has the following second paragraph;

Each engaged model makes a number of Attacks (A) as indicated on its characteristics profile, plus the following bonus Attacks:
(emphasis mine)

* +1 Charge Bonus....
* +1 Two Weapon....
* Other bonuses: Models may have special rules and wargear that confer extra Attacks.

So the term bonus Attacks encompass three seperate areas as per P24, the last of which covers special rules, which include such things as HoW though probably not furious charge because the bullet point refers to abilities that give extra attacks.

Cheers

Andrew

Actually, since it says "Other bonuses", you could infer that the +1 Two Weapon attack is a bonus attack that one receives when charging (after all, if you hadn't charged, you'd not be in base to base contact to initiate an assault). The fact that you also get that Bonus on turns when you don't charge is immaterial, going off your reading of the rule - which is probably the correct RAW interpretation.

Personally, I'd play it as losing the +1 Charge Bonus, and the benefit to Rage (since rage affects the Charge Bonus specifically), and that it didn't affect anything else.

I agree with the loss of the +1 Two Weapon rule, because the unit has charged that turn, in later turns they are locked in combat and the bonus is continuous. (and IMO the unit is no longer 'considered' to be charging for the purposes of the Defensive Grenades.) Why didn't I point that out? Because I didn't want shouted under for an over-extreme reading of the rule (even though an accurate one) in order to get my original point across which is that Special Rules/Abilities/Wargear is also negated by Defensive Grenades.

HoW does fall under the desciption of the third bullet point. Is it a special rule? Yes. Does it give an extra attack? Yes.

It does meet the description and so should/would be discounted.

Cheers

Andrew

The +1for 2CCW is a not a "charging" bonus, but an additional attack. It is not contingent upon you having charged

Agreed, but is it listed under the 'bonus Attacks' as per P24?

Andrwe

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The +1for 2CCW is a not a "charging" bonus, but an additional attack. It is not contingent upon you having charged

Well, as I pointed out, I'd play it as only affecting the explicit charge bonus, personally. I'd be interested in your opinion on the actual rule under discussion (the effect of Defensive Grenades on Rage/HoW/etc.), though! You always tend to have insightful, absolute and unwavering answers regarding rules questions.

I havent commented more, as it is clear that bonus attacks from charging are lost, however Furious Charge is a bonus OF charging, but is not a bonus attack FROM charging, so is not affected.

ITs essentially the same as 5th edition

 AndrewC wrote:
Agreed, but is it listed under the 'bonus Attacks' as per P24?

Andrwe

The first bullet point on pg 24 clearly shows the bonus attacks from charging. The rest of the bullets are "bonus attacks" but have nothing to do with charging.