Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

just as the title suggests are shadow weavers even worth it? or just stick to d-cannons. what are the benefits to shadow weavers?

Shadow weavers are the S6 monofiliment barrage weapons, right? Yeah, go for them. They are pretty nasty.

D-Cannons seem to short ranged and expensive to be an all comers choice.

Yes they are, but being small blast instead of the big blast makes me wonder if they are worth the 90 pts. or should I spend my points on other things?

toocool61 wrote:
Yes they are, but being small blast instead of the big blast makes me wonder if they are worth the 90 pts. or should I spend my points on other things?

They are worth it.

1: They are S6

2: They become S7 if you hit vehicles and low ini models

3: They have a chance to become AP1.

4: They are resolved at BS4

For 90 points, that's nasty.

Is it 90 points each?

In comparison, Ork Lobbers are 30 points each, resolved at BS3, and are always S5 AP5

Not to mention the 48" range, compared to the dcannons 24".

I like them. Cheap, long range, good strength, can pen av12 vehicles, barrage rules.

I've used a battery of 3 in a few games now had good return on investment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's 30 points per weaver.

PsycicSpaceElf wrote:
Not to mention the 48" range, compared to the dcannons 24".

I like them. Cheap, long range, good strength, can pen av12 vehicles, barrage rules.

I've used a battery of 3 in a few games now had good return on investment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's 30 points per weaver.

Yep, as I thought. Compared to the Lobbas, it's a bargain.
I guess Orks need an update then.

They're phenomenal. Probably the most point-efficient choice in the whole codex. Their only downside is that they're really cheap per slot and other HS choices are also pretty efficient such that you might want to dump a lot of points into HS.

I don't think D-Cannons are bad, exactly, but they don't work for most Eldar matchups. They're not great against MCs - you can get a small squad of Wraithguard for the same price and the Serpent you need to transport them is independently valuable. They're good against the sorts of things Scytheguard are good against, but those things have to want to get close. There aren't a whole lot of armies that are going to cooperate.

I think D-Cannons might work as Eldar allies in a Tau army, since the Tau can count on forcing the enemy to come to them in many more matchups.

Shadow Weavers are fantastic. A battery of 3 guns for 90 points that can reach out 48" and drop rending templates is awesome. I started out using the D-Cannons with the new codex, but after a few games using Shadow Weavers, I won't go back.

As someone who uses Biovores, and loves them, I gotta put out a resounding yes.

Stronger, cheaper, and tougher than Biovores.. Seriously, barrage is so good these days.

I would take a unit of 3 Weavers in every Eldar list sans Serpent Spam.

They are excellent. The only downside being that you have 3 HS slots and the other options are just as good if not better. If you need bargain prices HS they the batteries are good and the weaver is great if not then you are probably taking WW, WK, fire prism, nightspinner, or even WLs.

As mentioned above, for 30 points each you get quite a bit of punch from them and they can put some hurt on many things. Keep in mind you can also give them a Warlock for Conceal.

They are especially nice against IG parking lots as they will be S7 on side armor and they help deal with units cowering behind an Aegis. They also are S6-7 so they instant kill many xenos characters.

 mortetvie wrote:
As mentioned above, for 30 points each you get quite a bit of punch from them and they can put some hurt on many things. Keep in mind you can also give them a Warlock for Conceal.

They are especially nice against IG parking lots as they will be S7 on side armor and they help deal with units cowering behind an Aegis. They also are S6-7 so they instant kill many xenos characters.

No, they will instant kill many Eldar characters. Orks, Necrons and Tau Commanders are T4+ iirc.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:
As mentioned above, for 30 points each you get quite a bit of punch from them and they can put some hurt on many things. Keep in mind you can also give them a Warlock for Conceal.

They are especially nice against IG parking lots as they will be S7 on side armor and they help deal with units cowering behind an Aegis. They also are S6-7 so they instant kill many xenos characters.

No, they will instant kill many Eldar characters. Orks, Necrons and Tau Commanders are T4+ iirc.

And to be fair, most Eldar characters should be T4 as well, since most of the time you are either going to be on a Jetbike or inside a transport. They do kill Ethernals, Guard Commanders and Dark Eldar, yeah don't count on a S6/7 weapon threatening things with ID. The Nightspinner on the other hand does ID quite a few things, there are quite a few multi wound T4 units and characters with less than I3.
,

pantsonhead wrote:They're phenomenal. Probably the most point-efficient choice in the whole codex. Their only downside is that they're really cheap per slot and other HS choices are also pretty efficient such that you might want to dump a lot of points into HS.

I don't think D-Cannons are bad, exactly, but they don't work for most Eldar matchups. They're not great against MCs - you can get a small squad of Wraithguard for the same price and the Serpent you need to transport them is independently valuable. They're good against the sorts of things Scytheguard are good against, but those things have to want to get close. There aren't a whole lot of armies that are going to cooperate.

I think D-Cannons might work as Eldar allies in a Tau army, since the Tau can count on forcing the enemy to come to them in many more matchups.

This pretty much, they are incredible for their points, they issue is that because they are only 90pts you still don't get as much as a Wraithknight or 3 War Walkers, i.e you pay more to less efficiency but still end up with more. They are however one of the main reasons that Eldar should basically always fill its Heavy slots (the other reason being that they have an insane number of options in Heavy and all of them are good), 3 Vibrocannons are basically 2 Missile Launcher hits per turn (or 3 Lascannons if you Guide them) which is solid for 90pts and 3 BS4 S6 barrage blasts are pretty good for 90pts as well. Compared to something like IG Heavy Weapon squads (which are borderline competitive) or Lobbas they are amazing.

It's really hard to build D Cannons into an Eldar list, and I'm not even sure you would bother putting them into a Tau list (since you are better of just taking more Tau stuff and overwatching with your entire army when something charges your front line). I was thinking you could maybe make them work in a list which was using 3 Fliers, since then you run the Comms Relay and probably an Autarch to control when they come on. You could then take a bunch of long range shooting (probably Walkers and Serpents + Guardians with a platform) to bunker behind the Aegis until the planes show up, and the D Cannons give you a nice 'stay out' zone. The issue for me is that they fill a similar role to the Wraithknight, board control, and the WK is just so much more flexible.

toocool61 wrote:Yes they are, but being small blast instead of the big blast makes me wonder if they are worth the 90 pts. or should I spend my points on other things?

If they did not fix this you would see them in almost every list. I was about to buy some before the FAQ dropped. They are still criminally cheap for what they do. For under 100 points you get a large T7 squad with a 4' threat range dropping rending barrages that are S6 against most things, S7 against slow models and armor. Shadow weavers can quickly and easily make their points back and if you lose them your opponent probably spent more than 100 points killing them. Add a warlock to the squad, put them in cover and cast conceal, bonus if you manage to get protect and give them 2+ armor.

The main problem is that they take up a heavy support slot, which is highly contested by prisms, wraithknights and war walkers.

In a TAC list, eldar beat just about everything except guard, crons, and tau. Against tau and guard, shadow weavers rock everthing. Snipe out characters, pin squads, get rid of specialist weapons, and deal with AV10 side vehicles pretty easily. Easily worth 90 points and one of the better HS choices imo. Falcon and prism are very overrated.

Most importantly wounds from barrage weapons are resolved from the center of the blast. 30pts for something that snipes special weapons isn't bad in my books.

I'm curious as to whether people prefer the Shadow Weaver battery or the Night Spinner tank. I had initally been leaning towards the Night Spinner but this discussion is opening my eyes to the Shadow Weaver. Is it a list-dependent thing, or does it depend on whether you can spare the 25 pts or some other reason?

I prefer the battery in almost all cases. The Spinner is too fragile and is crippled by most of the vehicle damage rolls. With upgrades it's too expensive. The advantages it offers are mobility, S8 against low I, and a torrent fire mode.

Mobility isn't an issue for the battery because it has long range and is really durable, plus it's cheap enough that you don't care very much if the enemy decides to go after it. The Spinner's S8 is only a big deal against Necrons and Tau and vehicles. Against Necrons it's nice, I imagine. Against Tau the battery probably has an Ethereal or some Pathfinders to shoot, and probably still puts about the same number of wounds on small Crisis or Broadside teams. Against vehicles <AV14 the battery is better due to having more hits, even at lower strength. Torrent fire is the Spinner's saving grace, but it's only going to work if you have more tempting targets for the enemy's anti-tank weapons. A Serpent with Dire Avengers doesn't cut it. A Scytheguard Serpent would. If the Spinner gets shot up before being able to shoot a few times, you probably would have been better off with another Serpent.

I also like the battery as a character bunker. Even in a mech list, a Jetbike Farseer can start out in one before later moving to join a Jetbike squad (which you might have started in Reserves) or a unit that disembarked from a Serpent. But a Spinner might work in a list where you're otherwise putting a whole lot of ~18" pressure on the enemy on your first turn (Wraithknight, Wraiths or Fire Dragons in Serpents, etc).>

Another point to mention is the use of the battery as a bunker for characters. I think the dumping a naked farseer in is a fantastic idea. being artillery, it makes all models T7, while the farseer lets you shoot as BS 5, and potentially provides guide/prescience. A warlock can be added for shrouded too.

Hey guys, so just an update. I used the platforms in a few games now and have become a believer. I love these things. They are great places to put a spiritseer, and the range is fantastic. I have a new found love for these guys. I would take them over a Nightspinner because, 1) T7 is a solid unit and durable. 2) It takes 3 wounds just to kill off a platform. 3) The character sniping will come in handy against they new meta of Tau.

I have been debating the pros and cons of the Nightspinner v.s. the shadow weavers. Both offer some great uses. IMHO, I think that the artillery will offer better constant results. The tank will either perform wonderfully, or horribly. Personally, I like the tank more at the moment, but I am going to pick up a unit and see how well they perform.

Does anyone think running 3 squads of shadow weavers in 2000 pt double force org. is a good idea?

while the farseer lets you shoot as BS 5,

Independent Characters that join artillery do not count as crew, and thus cannot shoot the artillery.

toocool61 wrote:
Does anyone think running 3 squads of shadow weavers in 2000 pt double force org. is a good idea?

That depends on whether you local scene scores composition.

toocool61 wrote:
Does anyone think running 3 squads of shadow weavers in 2000 pt double force org. is a good idea?

What Belly said. But yeah. I have a hard time filling 3 HS slots with something other than batteries at 1850. At 2k with two FOCs I'd probably have four of the things, assuming I don't care about getting dirty looks.

I get you. Yea composition does not factor in since it is a GT. I am assuming there will be worse lists composition wise

pantsonhead wrote:
I prefer the battery in almost all cases. The Spinner is too fragile and is crippled by most of the vehicle damage rolls. With upgrades it's too expensive. The advantages it offers are mobility, S8 against low I, and a torrent fire mode.

Mobility isn't an issue for the battery because it has long range and is really durable, plus it's cheap enough that you don't care very much if the enemy decides to go after it. The Spinner's S8 is only a big deal against Necrons and Tau and vehicles. Against Necrons it's nice, I imagine. Against Tau the battery probably has an Ethereal or some Pathfinders to shoot, and probably still puts about the same number of wounds on small Crisis or Broadside teams. Against vehicles <AV14 the battery is better due to having more hits, even at lower strength. Torrent fire is the Spinner's saving grace, but it's only going to work if you have more tempting targets for the enemy's anti-tank weapons. A Serpent with Dire Avengers doesn't cut it. A Scytheguard Serpent would. If the Spinner gets shot up before being able to shoot a few times, you probably would have been better off with another Serpent.

I also like the battery as a character bunker. Even in a mech list, a Jetbike Farseer can start out in one before later moving to join a Jetbike squad (which you might have started in Reserves) or a unit that disembarked from a Serpent. But a Spinner might work in a list where you're otherwise putting a whole lot of ~18" pressure on the enemy on your first turn (Wraithknight, Wraiths or Fire Dragons in Serpents, etc).>

The S8 for the Nightspinner comes up more than you might think, which is what actually makes it a choice between in and 3 Shadow Weavers. Againsts Necrons you cause ID to Wraiths, against Tau you cause ID to all the normal sized Suits (and since Tau tend to stay close together to maximise overwatch you still end up hitting stuff even when you scatter) as well as Ethernals. Its also S8 against Orks, which means you cause ID on Nobz and Meganobz. If you run a Spiritseer or a couple of Warlocks then you can also end up with the -1I power, which brings stuff like Fleshhounds into the ID bracket. Imo its also debatable whether 3 small blasts do more damage to infantry than a single large blast, since usually people see the blast coming and spread out, which limits the small blasts to 1-2 hits each, while with the large blast you tend to get 3 per hit pretty reliably, YMMV. Usually its going to come down to the mobility issue, if you are running a Jetbike heavy list I can't see the Platforms fitting in, while the Nightspinner can avoid quite a bit more. In a more infantry based army which has something to stop people running straight at you (i.e a Wraithknight, or a big block of solid infantry like GK Terminators) then the Platforms are clearly a better choice. In a mech list they can be a nice bunker for a Farseer as well, but I'm actually thinking that you would be better off just taking the Mantle in that case so you aren't stuck around a single pivot point.

fuhrmaaj wrote:
I'm curious as to whether people prefer the Shadow Weaver battery or the Night Spinner tank. I had initally been leaning towards the Night Spinner but this discussion is opening my eyes to the Shadow Weaver. Is it a list-dependent thing, or does it depend on whether you can spare the 25 pts or some other reason?

Personally I would run 1 spinner with holo fields and CTM, purely on the fact that it flys 30" across the table has a 3+ save and can cook backfield units like Lootas, other artillery and most importantly, pathfinders.

I think I'd rather have the Nightspinner personally. I haven't actually tried the Shadow Weaver yet but I've tried the other two:

Vibrocannons - meh, did ok but nothing special really
D-Cannons - in one turn they decimated a drop pod Sternguard....then were out of range for the rest of the game. Very much situational really.