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I really don't get it but it's almost guaranteed that whenever a single thread runs for more than five or six pages, somebody, somewhere, is gonna quote Sun Tzu.

Guys. Quoating Sun Tzu does not make you sound intelligent, wise, or even original. I hate to break it to you, but The Art of War was written as a primer on Military Science. It's not the be all and end all. It is, in essence, an idiot's guide. Quoting it does not make you sound like you know what you're talking about. It just tells everyone in the know that you probably don't actually have a clue what you're talking about.

Especially when you quote it in completely the wrong context.

You don't hear Plumber's quoting from "Plumbing for Dummies" do you? So why do gamers so often quote Sun Tzu?

If you want to impress me with your wisdom and learning, try quoting Mao, Ceaser, Guderian, Rommel, Frontius, Vegetius, Livy, or even Basil Liddle-Hart.

Not that anything any of those worthies (especially Sun Tzu) wrote has any special relevance to a dice game like 40K. Real-World Military Theory just does not translate well into a game where both sides regularly take nearly 100% casualties in a single engagement.

Well, this thread was... useless.

I mean, honestly, a bunch of gamers who've never been to war are going to sound silly quoting anything.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:


I mean, honestly, a bunch of gamers who've never been to war are going to sound silly quoting anything.

I kinda want this in my signature now...

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Well, this thread was... useless.

I mean, honestly, a bunch of gamers who've never been to war are going to sound silly quoting anything.

While I agree that this is a useless thread, why not quote military leaders? Which of you are vets?

Sun-Tzu is soothing though.
He has such a "nice" way of putting it, making it all sound so civilized.
He was more concerned of the mindset and overall strategy so making lite of it as a "basic primer" is missing the point: there is more there than you think.

I suppose you would like to take a shot at "The Book of Five Rings" by Miyamoto Musashi, you would never get a better glimpse into the mind of a hard core warrior. He would be the transition between strategy and tactics.

Reading Robert Greene "The 33 Strategies of War" this is more the "War for Dummies" that gives the basic strategies for modern warfare with many quotes which may give the variety you need for your jaded heart. This is more the how-to book of applied field tactics: if A happens, apply B.

To make little of where someone gains inspiration is the sign of a closed mind which is the ultimate weakness in war which all three authors agree on.

<<edit>> See my sig. below, been there forever and still makes me smile.

On the topic of it being a "useless" thread: no.
Tactics and strategies are applied in life every day, you always want something right?
How do you intend on getting it?
Being prepared develops confidence, your odds of success increase and people are drawn to that energy.
Narrow minded thinking to limit: logistics, information gathering, communication skills, mentoring, seeing opportunities and exploiting them as exclusive to warfare is to not be open to possibility.

Another fine quote: "I have rarely learned anything from someone who agreed with me."

Not at all. I've read the Book of Five Rings a number of times myself. I see no reason to take pot shots at it. Like the Art of War, it's not 100% relevant to the modern age but still contains pearls of wisdom.

My intention isn't to belittle the Art of War, nor do I despise it as a source of inspiration.

However, I do contend that having read a single book on the subject of military theory (an entry level book at that) does not make someone an expert. Nor does it lend any-more weight to their pronouncements than quoting a basic text-book.

It's not the literature itself that I'm criticising. It's the way quotes from the work are thrown about to support arguments in a manner that takes the quotes out of context or else applies the quote in question to a situation in which it is barely relavent. If at all.

On top of that, it seems to me that it's the passages that are least relevent to the modern paradigm that are bandied about more often.

Seriously, if I had a marine for every time I'd read "The Eneamy of my Eneamy is my friend" I'd be able to field a whole Chapter by now. And that particular line is quite possibly one of the most insipid and down-right naive passages from the entire manuscript.



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Edit: I haven't read the full text of the "33 Strategies of War" but from what I do know of it, it seems to be very derivative of Frontius' Stratagems. Not that that's a bad thing, mind you. I dare say that GW's fluff writers could benefit from giving it a read.

@SoloFalcon: What's your definition of a vet? Someone who is ex-military? Someone who has seen extensive combat? Someone who has seen some combat? Take a guess which of these applies to me. That being said, my background has nothing to do with my objection to Sun Tzu being quoted willy-nilly. I don't object to civilians quoating Sun-Tzu. I object to anyone -civilian o military- quoting Sun Tzu badly or out of context. And Sun Tzu in relation to 40K is almost always out of context.

Ah so this is a rant against ignorance trying to hide behind barely understood expert quotes!

Running the risk of labeling myself:
“Quotation is a serviceable substitute for wit.”― Oscar Wilde

I do not meet many people willing to say "Yeah I am dumb, I figure it is more honest to try not to hide it ya know?"
So I foresee you being irritated to no end forever...

At least find some amusement when people mess up in their quotes, it is the polite thing to do.

Yup, pretty much.

That's quite condescending of you to assume that just because someone quotes "Art of War" They've only read a page or two. Maybe they found the quote relevant? Maybe it's the most accessible so the most read?
Condescension isn't intellectual either.

And just for the record, I have been to war.

And to end, here's a totally relevant quote.
“Engage people with what they expect; it is what they are able to discern and confirms their projections. It settles them into predictable patterns of response, occupying their minds while you wait for the extraordinary moment — that which they cannot anticipate.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Perfect example of what I'm talking about. I don't doubt that you've read the whole thing and, quite likely, more than just Sun Tzu on the subject of military science.

But you have indeed used a quote in an inappropriate situation. In what way does following an expected pattern of behaviour in order to lure an individual into a false sense of security have any relevance to this discussion?

Bonus points if you can provide a convincing answer. But you'd have gotten even more points if, instead of simply providing the quote, you had demonstrated your understanding by explaining in your post how, and why, it is relevant to this discussion. Rather than simply stating it is, indeed, relevant.

A quotation without context is essentially meaningless.

If you want to impress me with a quotation from Sun Tzu, don't simply drop it into the conversation like a lead brick. Explain why you think it is relevant and please explain why you find this particular quote to be of significance to you.

Please understand, that I personally have always found the character who drops in random and seemingly quotes and parables -like the guy from Mystery Men- insufferable. Simply quoting someones else's wisdom does not demonstrate that you yourself are wise. Or even that you understand the wisdom of the person you're quoting. If you don't provide a context to your quote,
all you are doing is proving that you have a good memory for a catchy line.

Note: Edited multiple times for spelling and grammar

Condescending was springing to mind as well but I chose to think "inflammatory" and "poor impulse control" when a valid observation was identified. Plus I like these kinds of things: "challenge accepted" meme rings through my head.

We are also under no obligation to try or care about impressing the OP, only to try to appear clever at his expense...

The valid point about Sun-Tzu turning up inevitably I will reply with another observation from a book I like:
"all tapes left in a car for more than about a fortnight metamorphose into 'Best of Queen' albums." ".

<<edit>> Meant to add "Now we can get the torches and pitchforks out in earnest!"

I was using the quote just for humor's sake, a random quote to show my un-education.

It was total sarcasm. The "totally relevant" part was a hint.

 Talizvar wrote:

We are also under no obligation to try or care about impressing the OP, only to try to appear clever at his expense...

In all fairness, this would be a particularly uninteresting thread if you weren't trying to be clever at my expense.


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 MWHistorian wrote:
I was using the quote just for humor's sake, a random quote to show my un-education.

It was total sarcasm. The "totally relevant" part was a hint.

Ah! It was a good hint too. But I'm a good few time zones ahead of you at the moment and it's been a long day (probably a contributing factor to my little rant). Anything more subtle than a brick to the face is probably lost on me at the moment.

 LeadLegion wrote:
If you want to impress me with your wisdom and learning, try quoting Mao, Sun Tzu, Ceaser, Guderian, Rommel, Frontius, Vegetius, Livy, or even Basil Liddle-Hart.

So I'm confused, am I supposed to quote Sun Tzu or not????

Who am I to tell you what you can or can't do? Quote him if you like But please, for the sake of my blood pressure, try to quote him well.

Ideally, for the benefit of people who haven't read Sun Tzu, please explain what you think the quote actually means and why you think it's relevent to the discussion.

Otherwise you do run the risk of coming across as that annoying enigmatic character meme. Whether you mean to or not.

I'm trying very hard to imagine a situation where a passage from the Art of War is relevant to a dice-game like 40K. In a game that's tries to closely simulate real combat, I could see the relevance. But not in one that treats combat as abstractly as 40K.

Mind you, just because I can't think of a situation where a Sun Tzu quote would be 100% relevent, it obviously doesn't mean there isn't one.

Everyone has something to bring to the table, sometimes you have to look hard.

It is usually at the end of a long day so many people slip into some lazy thinking (or a few too many beers) so I save my challenges to others when I really want it or they seem up to it.

I only bit at this thread because I really do like Sun's work and like his overall goal that if your opponent mobilizes for war against you: you did not plan very well.
We like to go nerd rage all over someone when they are disrespecting what we like. This was not the case.

I take martial arts because I like it, I read the books because they open new ideas, I can enter most situations with confidence, I plan ahead and it is always better to have a skill (or tool) and not need it than to not have the skill and need it.

You can at least motivate others to strive to greater learning in order to bring you down: that is the gift an opponent brings.

 LeadLegion wrote:


Quoating Sun Tzu does not make you sound intelligent, wise, or even original.



If you want to impress me with your wisdom and learning, try quoting Sun Tzu

Sorry, what?

>Don't quote Sun Tzu
>Quote Sun Tzu

“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

How meta is Leadie?

 Blacksails wrote:

 LeadLegion wrote:


Quoating Sun Tzu does not make you sound intelligent, wise, or even original.



If you want to impress me with your wisdom and learning, try quoting Sun Tzu

Sorry, what?

>Don't quote Sun Tzu
>Quote Sun Tzu

Dun dun dun. Now I get it. See what I mean about having to hit me with a brick to get through to me at this time of night? I'll go back and edit it.


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 Alpharius wrote:
How meta is Leadie?

Dunno really. I consider myself quite up to date on the meta. But then, I'm not exactly a tournament winning gaming machine.

Of course, I could be missing your point entirely. Whole brick to the face thing again.

"Meta" in regards to Leadie's meaning has been:
<voice of Yoda> "Show meaning in Sun-Tzu you will, on not, I care not, just quote not rot. Laugh at you with straight face I will."

"When all else fails, hit your enemy in the face with a brick, and say to him, 'Get bent'." -- Sun Tzu, The Art of War: Apocrypha.

 Talizvar wrote:


You can at least motivate others to strive to greater learning in order to bring you down: that is the gift an opponent brings.

You've seen right through me I think. Not that I'm suggesting I'm some cat-stroking "just as planned" mastermind mind you. That being said,I was trying to provoke something of a discussion with my original, somewhat inflammatory statement. A thread entitled "how to quote Sun Tzu properly so people understand what you're trying to say and so that they also know that you know what you;re talking about." wouldn't have attracted much attention. Nor would it have allowed me to vent my spleen a bit.

And for that matter, I'm not entirely sure that I understood what I was trying to achieve when I started this thread in the first place. Other than having a good rant about a pet peeve, that is.


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 Talizvar wrote:
"Meta" in regards to Leadie's meaning has been:
<voice of Yoda> "Show meaning in Sun-Tzu you will, on not, I care not, just quote not rot. Laugh at you with straight face I will."

Lol


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 Psienesis wrote:
"When all else fails, hit your enemy in the face with a brick, and say to him, 'Get bent'." -- Sun Tzu, The Art of War: Apocrypha.

I'd read that one. Hell, I'd buy two and give one to my wife.

I would argue with one point vehemently. The art of war is not a primer on military science but on strategy. It should be noted that this is a book that is mandatory reading in many upper level management courses...Hm, perhaps the business world fits; "...in the grim darkness of the far future there is only war." better than 40K does?

“I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.”

<-----------------------------------Sig

Sun-Tzu? He's like one of those dudes from Dynasty Warriors right?

Whining about people quoting Sun Tzu doesn't make you "sound intelligent, wise, or even original" either.

"But I wasn't trying to be those/edgy!" Yeah, same as most people who decide to quote Sun Tzu, either. I'll bet most people aren't actually trying to make themselves look intelligent. They're showing citations about basic military strategy. Which is NOT completely useless when talking about 40k, even if large parts of it is. I mean, just to point out one example, there's a lot of content on mind games you play with the other general or player. Not irrelevant.

If a basic manual is accessible, why not use it when appropriate?

Oh, I agree. 40k and the real world are sufficiently different that the two don't have a lot of direct comparison. I mean, it's like saying that Torsten Albig and Chris Christie have a lot in common with each other because they're both related to cows.

... that said...

I don't think it's completely pointless. Reading things like Sun Tsu helps you think more abstractly, and in terms similar to the kind you'd find to a wargame (regardless of if the terms are actually applicable or not). If it trains your mind to be more mindful, and that helps you play a dice game with a thin veneer of strategy on top, well, then what's wrong with that?

Furthermore, mantras aren't, in and of themselves, bad things. Once again, they don't need to be specifically related to get you thinking in a mode that will help you think of things that are related. Plus, they can be used to impart complex ideas with a few number of words. It's one of the reasons religions use chants and symbology. No, a bit of bread doesn't become magic zombie Jesus flesh, but if practicing communion helps you think about how you could be nicer or more loving towards others, then what's the problem?

If your complaint is that people are spouting empty dogmas or mantras without really knowing what they're about, or how to apply them correctly, then you're probably right, most of the time. But that doesn't mean you're right ALL of the time, or that different people get the same meaning from the same things.

After all, "righty tighty, lefty loosey" is actually abridging a LOT of information about how torque and mechanical engineering, and industrial machining works... but it still helps me put a screw into a bit of wood.

 LeadLegion wrote:


If you want to impress me with your wisdom and learning, try quoting Mao, Ceaser, Guderian, Rommel, Frontius, Vegetius, Livy, or even Basil Liddle-Hart.
.

Where are your principles! You left out Jomini!
Oh wait, you wanted to be impressed......

But what about Genghis Khan? (Coming from the guy with a sun tzu quote as his sig )