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I've seen a couple of games where look out sir was done two different ways, I just want to know what way is correct.

First way i've seen it, is you take look out sir rolls after armor saves, but can only be allocated against units of the same save value.
EX. wolfguard squad with two terminators and X power armored guys
TDA wolfguard flubs armor save, other terminator with base gear jumps in the way, all is good in the world, except for the redshirt terminator.

the second way i've seen it is that you do a look out sir roll before any armor saves,
same example, but a power armored guy jumps in the way of a lascannon shot that would have punched right through the termi armor

also, does feel no pain take effect on the model that jumped in the way?

second way, and yes to FNP

second way, ok.. thanks. now for the chosen redshirt, does he get his armor save?

gealgain wrote:
second way, ok.. thanks. now for the chosen redshirt, does he get his armor save?

yes

thanks for the clarification

To save time, if the IC and the unit he is attached to have the same save value you can roll them all at once and Look Out Sir after as this method yields the same statistical results and is a bit faster.

 DeathReaper wrote:
To save time, if the IC and the unit he is attached to have the same save value you can roll them all at once and Look Out Sir after as this method yields the same statistical results and is a bit faster.

True, but only if you announce before you are going to Look Out Sir all of the wounds before you begin rolling.

gealgain wrote:
I've seen a couple of games where look out sir was done two different ways, I just want to know what way is correct.

First way i've seen it, is you take look out sir rolls after armor saves, but can only be allocated against units of the same save value.
EX. wolfguard squad with two terminators and X power armored guys
TDA wolfguard flubs armor save, other terminator with base gear jumps in the way, all is good in the world, except for the redshirt terminator.

the second way i've seen it is that you do a look out sir roll before any armor saves,
same example, but a power armored guy jumps in the way of a lascannon shot that would have punched right through the termi armor

also, does feel no pain take effect on the model that jumped in the way?

Note that the LOS rules were erratad in the FAQ. The rules in the BRB have been significantly altered.

 Nilok wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
To save time, if the IC and the unit he is attached to have the same save value you can roll them all at once and Look Out Sir after as this method yields the same statistical results and is a bit faster.

True, but only if you announce before you are going to Look Out Sir all of the wounds before you begin rolling.

Why, it is literally the same outcome.

Under normal individual rolling you may decide to take a risk and not LOS! some of the wounds... for instance, if the next model in line to dive in has a meltagun, you have 1 Wound left to roll for and the character has 1 Wound left.
...yes, I've done this, and the character died.

If you roll all the saves up front then you more or less know (failed 1's notwithstanding) whether, for instance, your character dies along with 2 others or 5 others die. This becomes important when there are special models in the unit. For this reason I *always* roll for LOS! before saves.

 Super Ready wrote:
Under normal individual rolling you may decide to take a risk and not LOS! some of the wounds... for instance, if the next model in line to dive in has a meltagun, you have 1 Wound left to roll for and the character has 1 Wound left.
...yes, I've done this, and the character died.

If you roll all the saves up front then you more or less know whether, for instance, your character dies along with 2 others or 5 others die. This becomes important when there are special models in the unit. For this reason I *always* roll for LOS! before saves.

Which statistically is going to happen anyway...

The difference lies not in the statistics, but in the choice of allocation. Or, if you will, the psychology of risk.

 Super Ready wrote:
The difference lies not in the statistics, but in the choice of allocation. Or, if you will, the psychology of risk.

Which makes no difference by the numbers

LoS is also now based on closest model. So if your Termi-Lord is LoSing an invul save, and the closest model is a regular Power Armor guy, the LoS goes on the PA guy who then dies without save (FnP rules applying of course).

 DeathReaper wrote:
Which makes no difference by the numbers

Actually it can make a difference since you're getting more information than you are supposed to have before deciding whether to LoS or not. Let's say you have a MEQ squad taking 10 wounds. If you have to roll LoS one at a time before rolling saves then you have to decide whether to send the wounds off to a different model before you know how many of them will be unsaved. Since the rest of the squad is probably one-wound models doing this means committing to a high chance of losing some models. If, instead, you roll your saves and see that you only took two wounds then you can just take them on the character and keep the rest of the squad alive and have zero dead models at the end. You only get the exact same outcome in both cases if you declare that you will LoS every wound until either there are no more wounds left or the character dies.

And by the numbers you will have the same result, 2 wounds either way...

 DeathReaper wrote:
And by the numbers you will have the same result, 2 wounds either way...

No one is disputing that the number of wounds caused is the same, just that foreknowledge of how many (edit: unsaved) wounds were caused may influence a player's decision to use LOS! or not.

 DeathReaper wrote:
And by the numbers you will have the same result, 2 wounds either way...

Except the question is where those two wounds will go. If I have 10 wounds to save there's a pretty good chance I'm going to LoS them away as much as I can, putting those two failed saves on non-character models. On the other hand, if I roll my saves and see that I don't have enough failed ones to kill my character I might just take them all on the character and keep the entire squad alive. The two situations are only equivalent if I declare up front that I'm going to LoS as many wounds as possible no matter what the outcome of the saves is.

 DeathReaper wrote:
And by the numbers you will have the same result, 2 wounds either way...

perhaps not...your rolling twice as many dice with LoS. First roll is to see if your LoS happens or not. Then you roll that die a second time to resolve the save.
So if your 2+ HQ rolls a 2-6 (which would be a save) he now has to roll a second time to see if the closest scrub lives or dies. Really problematic if your scrubs are 3+ saves...easier to kill on that second roll.
However your HQ rolls a 1 for LoS, he then rerolls the dice for his serve. More than likely making it.
Chances are with LoS your going to lose twice the number of scrubs per set than if you had just rolled all the saves at once on your HQ.

Unless your using my dice then your going to lose the HQ on the first 3 dice, then 3/4ths of the squad on the rest.

dkellyj wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And by the numbers you will have the same result, 2 wounds either way...

perhaps not...your rolling twice as many dice with LoS. First roll is to see if your LoS happens or not. Then you roll that die a second time to resolve the save.
So if your 2+ HQ rolls a 2-6 (which would be a save) he now has to roll a second time to see if the closest scrub lives or dies. Really problematic if your scrubs are 3+ saves...easier to kill on that second roll.
However your HQ rolls a 1 for LoS, he then rerolls the dice for his serve. More than likely making it.
Chances are with LoS your going to lose twice the number of scrubs per set than if you had just rolled all the saves at once on your HQ.

Unless your using my dice then your going to lose the HQ on the first 3 dice, then 3/4ths of the squad on the rest.

Perhaps you should read the entire thread before posting. The situation that DeathReaper is referring to is a character that has the same save as the rest of the squad.

I thought the same thing - but after a reread, by 2+, I wonder whether he's referring to the LOS! roll.

I think its fair to roll armor saves before LOS so long as you announce you're intentions and attempt to LOS all the failed wounds.
It's chiefly for speeding up the game, but always make sure your opponent is ok with it.

 Fafnir13 wrote:
I think its fair to roll armor saves before LOS so long as you announce you're intentions and attempt to LOS all the failed wounds.
It's chiefly for speeding up the game, but always make sure your opponent is ok with it.

Only if all the saves are the same.
But I agree, the "same save" method was faster, especially in Ork and Guard units.
Think they only dropped it as it was causing too much confusion.

You don't have to make sure your opponent is ok with it. It's in the rule book. The FAQ changed nothing. The look out sir trigger is on allocation. As long as you don't allocate then try to save then look out sir you are fine.
Any one trying to say otherwise is cheating and should be called out on it and corrected

Kisada II wrote:
You don't have to make sure your opponent is ok with it. It's in the rule book. The FAQ changed nothing. The look out sir trigger is on allocation. As long as you don't allocate then try to save then look out sir you are fine.
Any one trying to say otherwise is cheating and should be called out on it and corrected

The FAQ changed a lot actually. I suggest you read it.
You must allocate then LOS then save.

Just did, post FAQ it reads "when a wound is allocated to a character..."
Now read page 15 for wound pools from shoots attacks where it lays out in no uncertain terms that if all the armor saves are the same you are to roll them first then allocate the unsaved wounds. The method you are describing in the mixed saves method which you have to have different saves to be allowed to use.
So the way most people play is actually cheating, and making a decision on each wound goes actually give an advantage because with each wound you gain more information and can make a better more informed choice on whether or not LOS also players abuse this to slow play.
Would be nice if the community put a stop to this

Kisada II wrote:
Just did, post FAQ it reads "when a wound is allocated to a character..."
Now read page 15 for wound pools from shoots attacks where it lays out in no uncertain terms that if all the armor saves are the same you are to roll them first then allocate the unsaved wounds. The method you are describing in the mixed saves method which you have to have different saves to be allowed to use.
So the way most people play is actually cheating, and making a decision on each wound goes actually give an advantage because with each wound you gain more information and can make a better more informed choice on whether or not LOS also players abuse this to slow play.
Would be nice if the community put a stop to this

Read the FAQ's again: If you have a character you have to use the mixed save method. It's not slow playing, it's following the rules.

Page 15 – Shooting Phase, Mixed Saves
Change subheader to “Mixed Saves and Characters”.
Change the first sentence to read “If the target unit contains
several different saving throws, or at least one character…”

Kisada II wrote:
Just did, post FAQ it reads "when a wound is allocated to a character..."
Now read page 15 for wound pools from shoots attacks where it lays out in no uncertain terms that if all the armor saves are the same you are to roll them first then allocate the unsaved wounds. The method you are describing in the mixed saves method which you have to have different saves to be allowed to use.
So the way most people play is actually cheating, and making a decision on each wound goes actually give an advantage because with each wound you gain more information and can make a better more informed choice on whether or not LOS also players abuse this to slow play.
Would be nice if the community put a stop to this

You may want to re-read the FAQ. If there is a character present, you are instructed to use the mixed saves method. The FAQ in fact changes the sub section title to 'Mixed Saves and Characters'.

Edit: Ninja'd

Wound pool is based on the average toughness of the unit. Even if the Boss has a higher toughness, the wounds are based this way, always.
When selecting the target, it goes to the closest model or in the rare case of random allocation a model is chosen. From there that model will save for every wound unless it is removed.
If the boss is the closest or target model. 'Look out sir!' must be rolled before the save roll, which means for all of the wounds in the pool. You can roll one wound at a time (allowing you to spread out the wounds among your unit). Or you could roll for the entire pool. Any wounds that failed the 'look out sir' the boss must roll, first. If a single wound will remove the boss, the remaining wounds are added back to the pool.

I can't see any other way of doing this.

 Sleg wrote:
Wound pool is based on the average toughness of the unit. Even if the Boss has a higher toughness, the wounds are based this way, always.
When selecting the target, it goes to the closest model or in the rare case of random allocation a model is chosen. From there that model will save for every wound unless it is removed.
If the boss is the closest or target model. 'Look out sir!' must be rolled before the save roll, which means for all of the wounds in the pool. You can roll one wound at a time (allowing you to spread out the wounds among your unit). Or you could roll for the entire pool. Any wounds that failed the 'look out sir' the boss must roll, first. If a single wound will remove the boss, the remaining wounds are added back to the pool.

I can't see any other way of doing this.

Thank the Emperor someone saved me typing my version of this out