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I played a game on vassal this evening. My opponent ran a competitive list composed of roughly the following:

Tau with Space Marine allies
Tigirius was joined to a rip tide
A Tau commander was joined to a unit of Centurions.

STOP! This just makes zero sense. I understand he was trying to cheese things out and find the most broken combo possible, but give me a break.

These were Ultramarines allied with Tau. What happened to the emperors directive to purge the xenos?

I would be ashamed to run this army, and I am a very competitive player that loves tournaments.

In addition to the above, he threw a fit because we agreed that a ruin in the middle of the board BLOS at the beginning of the game. Turn 2 I moved 2 of my monstrous creatures into the ruin, and
he suddenly tried to unload on them. And yes, terrain doesn't have to be impassable to BLOS.

dlight wrote:
These were Ultramarines allied with Tau. What happened to the emperors directive to purge the xenos?

What happened is GW said Tau and C:SM are battle brothers, a closer relationship than some space marine chapters (DA/SW) have with each other. It sounds like you have a problem with GW's fluff decisions, not your opponent's choice of strategies.

In addition to the above, he threw a fit because we agreed that a ruin in the middle of the board BLOS at the beginning of the game. Turn 2 I moved 2 of my monstrous creatures into the ruin, and
he suddenly tried to unload on them. And yes, terrain doesn't have to be impassable to BLOS.

Sorry, but that's kind of a TFG move. In a top-down view most people are going to assume that "blocks LOS 100% from all directions" means "this is a solid object". A ruin that models can enter does NOT block LOS 100%, especially to giant MC models. If you were counting on being able to move models into this magic terrain feature you should have explicitly agreed up front that models could enter it and be 100% protected since this is not a situation that could happen in a tabletop game.

Tau and C:SM are battle brothers..... Do you understand what you just said and how ridiculous that is? Surely that has to be a mistake on GW's part? If not, it is nothing more than a massive cash grab.

And I don't even want to discuss the terrain situation. We discussed it before the game started. People can assume all they want, but BLOS terrain DOES NOT have to be solid. Ruins often have caved in walls, rubble everywhere, etc.

I'd like to get my hands on the drugs that GW used when they wrote the ally table.

dlight wrote:
Tau and C:SM are battle brothers..... Do you understand what you just said and how ridiculous that is? Surely that has to be a mistake on GW's part? If not, it is nothing more than a massive cash grab.

There is no evidence at all that it is anything other than a deliberate decision by GW. Don't like it? Play a better game.

And I don't even want to discuss the terrain situation. We discussed it before the game started. People can assume all they want, but BLOS terrain DOES NOT have to be solid. Ruins often have caved in walls, rubble everywhere, etc.

And I have yet to see a single ruin in the tabletop game that can block LOS 100% to multiple MCs and prevent it from being shot at. Those caved in walls, windows, etc, will allow at least some LOS from some directions. By declaring it to be a 100% LOS blocker you implied that it was a solid object because that's what it would have to be on the tabletop. If you did this accidentally then it's an unfortunate mistake and you should apologize to your opponent for not making it clear what you meant, and delete the part of your post where you accuse them of "throwing a fit". If you deliberately described it so you could surprise your opponent when you walked your MCs into it then you are TFG.

text removed.

Reds8n

So if you don't want to hear any disagreement then what is the point of this post?

Soo, this seems more like an angry player, and less about the quality of the game play. I myself don't dig C:SM, and Tau allies, but just get on with it. Tau are all buddy buddy with Ultramarines last I checked. Even so, that's one rule, and suddenly the game has devolved?

This sounds like a case of TFG and something I call 'salt'.

So... You moved circles around on MSPaint and the circles represented factions you don't feel should be friends?

What, did it ruin the illusion for you? Would you otherwise have been able to fully immerse yourself into the magical world of circles on MSPaint?



Also, I can, on the top of my head, name three BL novels where the Imperium are being all friendly with the Tau. In one of them, it's the Ultramarines fighting alongside Tau.

Here are 3 "official" GW ruins that would easily & completely block LOS to 2+ 60mm monstrous creatures. They can be modified as desired, doors open\closed and\or
windows shut.







And as I said, we talked this before the game. So don't run off with diarrhea of the mouth and call me TFG. I know the game to a fine, technical level.
Having a piece of BLOS terrain on the table keeps the game balanced against TAU and other OP rules\lists.

No further comment on Space Marines\Tau allies. All it is going to do is fuel my rage.

dlight wrote:
Here are 3 "official" GW ruins that would easily completely block LOS to 2+ 60mm monstrous creatures.

Not even close. They will certainly give it a cover save, but you will easily see some of the model through the gaps. And that's not even counting the fact that they're only a 90* corner, so it would be absolutely ridiculous to declare them to be complete LOS blockers. If nothing else you could just walk around to the other side and shoot the MCs without a cover save at all.

And as I said, we talked this before the game. So don't run off with diarrhea of the mouth and call me TFG.

The point is that your opponent, like most people, interpreted what you were describing as something very different. A piece of terrain that blocks LOS 100% but also allows models to enter it is something that pretty much doesn't exist in 40k, so it's unfair to say that your opponent was "throwing a fit" when you gained a significant advantage by insisting that the terrain piece did both.

And, again, it's only TFG behavior if you deliberately described it so your opponent would assume that you couldn't enter so you could surprise them when you did. If it was just an accidental miscommunication then those things happen, and you should just apologize for getting so upset about it.

Having a piece of BLOS terrain on the table keeps the game balanced against TAU and other OP rules\lists.

Yes, it does. But virtually every piece of terrain that can 100% block LOS to multiple MCs is also impassable terrain. And given that this is a top-down game where you can't just look at the terrain model on the table it is unreasonable to get upset when your opponent makes the natural assumption that it is a standard LOS blocker.

No further comment on Space Marines\Tau allies. All it is going to do is fuel my rage.

Sounds like this just isn't the game for you. Maybe you should calm down and find a different game to play that will be less upsetting for you?

So, the actual fluff fuels your fluff-rage? And you know the game to "a fine, technical level"?

No, you don't sound like TFG, at all!

Because Vassal is a 2d game engine, I think its fine to make mutually agreed pieces of terrain totally LoS blocking, because you can't get down and do that whole 'models eye view' thing.

The ally chart is also a ridiculous piece of gak. Single worst thing in the game IMO

Otherwise, OP, the game has some serious flaws, you've gotta learn to deal with them or go find a better game.

 Peregrine wrote:

dlight wrote:
Here are 3 "official" GW ruins that would easily completely block LOS to 2+ 60mm monstrous creatures.

Not even close. They will certainly give it a cover save, but you will easily see some of the model through the gaps. And that's not even counting the fact that they're only a 90* corner, so it would be absolutely ridiculous to declare them to be complete LOS blockers. If nothing else you could just walk around to the other side and shoot the MCs without a cover save at all.

And as I said, we talked this before the game. So don't run off with diarrhea of the mouth and call me TFG.

The point is that your opponent, like most people, interpreted what you were describing as something very different. A piece of terrain that blocks LOS 100% but also allows models to enter it is something that pretty much doesn't exist in 40k, so it's unfair to say that your opponent was "throwing a fit" when you gained a significant advantage by insisting that the terrain piece did both.

And, again, it's only TFG behavior if you deliberately described it so your opponent would assume that you couldn't enter so you could surprise them when you did. If it was just an accidental miscommunication then those things happen, and you should just apologize for getting so upset about it.

Having a piece of BLOS terrain on the table keeps the game balanced against TAU and other OP rules\lists.

Yes, it does. But virtually every piece of terrain that can 100% block LOS to multiple MCs is also impassable terrain. And given that this is a top-down game where you can't just look at the terrain model on the table it is unreasonable to get upset when your opponent makes the natural assumption that it is a standard LOS blocker.

No further comment on Space Marines\Tau allies. All it is going to do is fuel my rage.

Sounds like this just isn't the game for you. Maybe you should calm down and find a different game to play that will be less upsetting for you?

No, they will certainly block LOS if that is they way you model them and position them. I own the kits, I know how they can be configured.
And these are just 3 examples. I am sure I could find more if I wanted to spend the time (which I don't).

And re-read my first post. I am not the one that got upset. He threw a fit, and began making personal attacks. What made me upset was his behavior (not the actual rule), which is
understandable and reasonable. I don't take it well when a grown man acts like that over a game.
And interestingly, you weren't there, but I am the TFG?

Sounds like you don't know what you are talking about. Maybe you should spend more time understanding the rules & mechanics of a game system before you start declaring things that are inaccurate?

So a few things here, if you have large issues with people playing by the rules...because you don't like the fluff as GW has tweaked it...you are not a competitive player.

Second...don't play people you don't know of vassal. That is when things like this happen.

I agree with Peregrin, none of those ruins you show block LOS from all directions in real life. IF someone puts a LOS blocker in the center on Vassal, I assume that if they move on top of it (no way to know that they are moving into it, and no GW ruin that BLOS from all directions exists.) at which point it no longer Blocks LOS. Now if you discussed prior to the game that the center piece of terrain BLOS to units inside of it that is different, or if you had a piece of terrain with defined walls that would Block LOS also fine if you were behind them and it was discussed.

Was your opponent right for flipping out about it? That depends on hoe you reacted when he shot at you, and how the discussion devolved from there....like I said if you play strangers on Vassal these things happen. Unless you spend time having a discussion rather than just stating that the piece BLOS, then I would assume that anything on the piece itself is visible.

dlight wrote:
I don't take it well when a grown man acts like that over a game.

I think we're done here.

The Allies chart has very little to do with fluff. It's a rules thing, and I'd argue it does not reflect the fluff very well.

Imho, it's just a thing I would talk over with the opponent before playing the game. If you don't like the idea of Tau+SM, then ... don't play?

First, you should relax. Seriously.

Second, the fluff supports the ally charts generally. Then again, BL writers have been known to take certain liberties with fluff (that leads to silly-rages like these), something that's actually an on going joke among the 40k family.

Third, you claim to be a competitive player that enjoys tournaments, coolbeans. But in the same sentence you state how ashamed you'd be if you played a UM/Tau force...one of the most competitive army lists. I don't get it, are you a competitive player or a fluff nazi?

Fourth, reading the rulebook (go figure), there's a note about LOS...if the enemy can see a certain percentage, it's not LOS blocking. Cover save? Sure. Since you 'know the game to a fine, technical level' you probably already knew this. Also, you didn't actually show us the terrain you'd decided to be BLOS in your game, the pictures you did link however can be argued either way.

It is pretty clear that there are two types of 40k players:

1. The competitive player who looks for ridiculous combinations of units to make the most broken list possible. These players are looking at just the numbers and rules - nothing else.

2. The semi-competitive players/fluff bunnies: these players will use units they like/fluff lists and fully accept that they are not the most optimized armies.

When people complain about balance and the game "devolving into madness" it is a prime example of why players in groups 1 and 2 should not mix. I prefer the fluff and refuse to use certain units because I feel as though they are too silly..... but I don't expect every other player out there to have fun the same way as me.

OP:
1) You were playing Vassal so it is a top down 2D game. There are two things at work here, the ruin as an area of terrain sure, can block line of sight (as agreed) but once you enter it you are fair game. You are thinking the 90 deg, two lines (all you would see in the program) like the pictures of the models you've shown as the "true" line of sight blockers. Just did not clarify fully between the two (I suspect). People tend to get upset when they "thought" one thing and their opponent thought another: deal with it, because it is your problem as well.

2) Tau and Marines. Sure. It is allowed according to rules. It is to be expected because people sometimes make armies to win and care little for fluff so it only seems reasonable to them.

3) Read carefully some of the wording on the psychic powers, sometimes the wording states it has to be a SM model or allies, tripped up a guy who was using eldar powers on DE to 2+ inv re-rolls (1 in 36 to fail) till we looked at the target information better.

4) People do freak out on occasion, sit back, get some popcorn and appreciate that someone has passions, they actually care rather than say "meh". If someone cares, I can work with that. If they are win at all costs, that is a little different but I do like to have that understanding of the person so I "tool" my army accordingly since my mild "fluffy" style of play would be lost on them.

5) It is on a computer. The time and effort invested is very little so a bit of chill on each side is warranted.

6) OP you are obviously upset but to find "sympathy" on something like this is unlikely to happen.

In all, the amount the game can "devolve" is largely based on the people playing since GW will not take responsibility for the rules they publish or how upset the players get with the lack of clarity.

I liked 40k in the beginning. I never built a "niche" army, so the army was pretty much always playable (I lost three models to "no profile anymore" syndrome in 5 editions).

There are many things I dislike about 40k.
This allies matrix was just the last in a looong litany of lameness.

We still have players in my club who play "fluffy" (in that they WILL NOT ally Chaos and Necrons, Tau and Imperial - chaos and Eldar, BT and psykers, GK and chaos, or even take a Khorne marked army led by a sorceror.). This is not to say they won't do "hard" lists - but they won't compromise on what they feel is "wrong" according to the "established" canon.

That GW has changed it's "canon" more times than most gamers shower is irrelevant.

Playing 40k over Vassal is like playing 40k with card chits. That needed 3rd dimension (for LoS and cover and stuff) is missing and it just isn't the same. May as well play tiddlywinks.

 chromedog wrote:
I liked 40k in the beginning. I never built a "niche" army, so the army was pretty much always playable (I lost three models to "no profile anymore" syndrome in 5 editions).

There are many things I dislike about 40k.
This allies matrix was just the last in a looong litany of lameness.

We still have players in my club who play "fluffy" (in that they WILL NOT ally Chaos and Necrons, Tau and Imperial - chaos and Eldar, BT and psykers, GK and chaos, or even take a Khorne marked army led by a sorceror.). This is not to say they won't do "hard" lists - but they won't compromise on what they feel is "wrong" according to the "established" canon.

That GW has changed it's "canon" more times than most gamers shower is irrelevant.

Playing 40k over Vassal is like playing 40k with card chits. That needed 3rd dimension (for LoS and cover and stuff) is missing and it just isn't the same. May as well play tiddlywinks.

Except Tau and Imperial have allied before, not to mention IG lists could count as Gue'vasa armies for them, not to mention a bunch of those lists can't ally at all.

The Allies Matrix is utterly bizarre with some of its combinations. That said, your opponent was playing within the rules of the game. As stated above, hyper-competitive players sometimes struggle to mix with those who follow fluff. Neither group is wrong, they just normally go to different parties, that's all.

Those ruins do not block line of sight completely. This is due to the fact that they only have two walls each, which leaves a big open bit on two sides. This is without taking the windows, doors and missing roof into account. Unless there is only one enemy unit positioned really badly, your models can be shot at while in those ruins.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
I liked 40k in the beginning. I never built a "niche" army, so the army was pretty much always playable (I lost three models to "no profile anymore" syndrome in 5 editions).

There are many things I dislike about 40k.
This allies matrix was just the last in a looong litany of lameness.

We still have players in my club who play "fluffy" (in that they WILL NOT ally Chaos and Necrons, Tau and Imperial - chaos and Eldar, BT and psykers, GK and chaos, or even take a Khorne marked army led by a sorceror.). This is not to say they won't do "hard" lists - but they won't compromise on what they feel is "wrong" according to the "established" canon.

That GW has changed it's "canon" more times than most gamers shower is irrelevant.

Playing 40k over Vassal is like playing 40k with card chits. That needed 3rd dimension (for LoS and cover and stuff) is missing and it just isn't the same. May as well play tiddlywinks.

Except Tau and Imperial have allied before, not to mention IG lists could count as Gue'vasa armies for them, not to mention a bunch of those lists can't ally at all.

Fluff wise sure, but as a game mechanic Allies is terrible. I knew GW weren't going to be able to keep up with balancing it and stuff will fall through the cracks.

It doesn't help that marines can ally with marines now effectively giving them 3 HQs 4 Elites 8 Troops 4 Fast and 4 heavy while Tyranids, Eldar, and Orks can go Feth themselves.

Marine tax shouldn't be a real thing

 Ravenous D wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
I liked 40k in the beginning. I never built a "niche" army, so the army was pretty much always playable (I lost three models to "no profile anymore" syndrome in 5 editions).

There are many things I dislike about 40k.
This allies matrix was just the last in a looong litany of lameness.

We still have players in my club who play "fluffy" (in that they WILL NOT ally Chaos and Necrons, Tau and Imperial - chaos and Eldar, BT and psykers, GK and chaos, or even take a Khorne marked army led by a sorceror.). This is not to say they won't do "hard" lists - but they won't compromise on what they feel is "wrong" according to the "established" canon.

That GW has changed it's "canon" more times than most gamers shower is irrelevant.

Playing 40k over Vassal is like playing 40k with card chits. That needed 3rd dimension (for LoS and cover and stuff) is missing and it just isn't the same. May as well play tiddlywinks.

Except Tau and Imperial have allied before, not to mention IG lists could count as Gue'vasa armies for them, not to mention a bunch of those lists can't ally at all.

Fluff wise sure, but as a game mechanic Allies is terrible. I knew GW weren't going to be able to keep up with balancing it and stuff will fall through the cracks.

It doesn't help that marines can ally with marines now effectively giving them 3 HQs 4 Elites 8 Troops 4 Fast and 4 heavy while Tyranids, Eldar, and Orks can go Feth themselves.

Marine tax shouldn't be a real thing

Orks have allies that they can use, Eldar have good ones and in fact are one of the top armies (Once again, kelly skimmerspam!), and Tyranids got better in 6th, though they weren't exactly good when they were released, being a low codex on release.

Also apparently you have no clue what a "Tax" is..Considering that MEQ armies pale now before Necrons, Tau, and Eldar.

The problem with Marines is that they will always be the Mario of GW. Everything that the marines get will generally be better than everything else. This is because little boys want to become eight foot tall trains of pain when they grow up.

I remember back in the 4th edition marine codex, when I was interested in playing them, that I noticed that it was possible to get 6 SM HQs in a single army, as a Chaplin and Librarian could join a command squad being led by a Marine Captain. This allies matrix is no different, and SM will always be top of the game. As a CSM player, I hate the fact that SM get the ability to have a founding chapter trait, why couldn't CSM have that? Because they are not SM.

The Mario means the average jack of all trades master of none guy, FYI.

 Ravenous D wrote:

Fluff wise sure, but as a game mechanic Allies is terrible. I knew GW weren't going to be able to keep up with balancing it and stuff will fall through the cracks.

It doesn't help that marines can ally with marines now effectively giving them 3 HQs 4 Elites 8 Troops 4 Fast and 4 heavy while Tyranids, Eldar, and Orks can go Feth themselves.

Marine tax shouldn't be a real thing

Orks can ally with Dreadmob orks, CSM can ally with Black legion. Nids are kinda in a bad spot.

Back on topic, Isn't it a bit hypocritical to say you talked things over with this terrain and then complain over his list? Wouldn't everything be agreed upon, or just not play? The more I read this the more it seems like TFG. Why blame a company over something you agreed to?

MCs no longer have to be obscured by %50 or more to get a cover save. So you legit get a cover save even from area terrain.

dlight wrote:

These were Ultramarines allied with Tau. What happened to the emperors directive to purge the xenos?

There is precedence for this in the fluff.