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Hi all,

The question is relatively straightforward:
I have a Soulgrinder. He carries a Harvester on one arm, and a second ranged weapon on the other. The Harvester has 2 firing profiles, one of which gains the Skyfire property.
If I use the Harvester in Skyfire mode, does the Skyfire rule also apply to Warp Gaze if taken?

My argument is due to the ambiguous wording of the Skyfire rule:
40k Rulebook, page 42: Skyfire
A model with this rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers. Unless it also has the Interceptor rule, it can only fire snap shots against other targets.

I believe this can be interpreted to mean that if he is firing his Harvester in Skyfire mode, he 'fires using his normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers...' regardless of where the Skyfire is coming from. It is perhaps grasping at straws but this seems to be a correct reading of the rules.

Does the Warp Gaze have Skyfire? No.
... Or is he firing a weapon with Skyfire? Yes --> Model fires using it's normal BS against Flyers etc.

It does not say that the normal BS only applies to the shots with Skyfire, only that he gets the benefit if one of his weapons has it.

Thoughts? If correct, it would supply Daemons with S10/AP1 Skyfire, which would go a long way...

If the weapon has Skyfire, then it can use the models full BS vs fliers. No other weapons would gain benefit. If the model has Skyfire, then all its weapons can fire at full BS.

No it is only when using the skyfire profile does that 1 weapon have skyfire.

Every other ranged weapon on the souldgrinder do not have Skyfire, nor does the soulgrinder itself, so all of their attacks are snapshots vs fliers.

But more importantly, all the other weapons and the alternate nonskyfire profile of the 1 weapon DO NOT snapshot against non-flyer, FMC, and Skimmer models as a general rule.

Many thanks for the comments, as mentioned I didn't expect this would be an easy one to argue.

Without meaning to sound aggressive, can you back that up with something in the rules? I'm pretty sure you are arguing the intent of the rules but as mentioned, it is written ambiguously and I do not believe that there is anything to discount my interpretation.

The rules exists under 2 conditions: Either the model has Skyfire, or **a** weapon being fired has the Skyfire property. A singular weapon with Skyfire is needed.
By using the Harvester in Skyfire mode the model is indisputably using a weapon with Skyfire, which by my reading has now filled all the necessary criteria for the model to fire at it's normal Ballistic Skill.

Absolutely no part of that ruling specifies that Skyfire is limited to the gun being used. If the model has Skyfire, or if it is using a weapon with Skyfire, it gets to use full BS against Flyers.

As said I appreciate I am being a lawyery jerk and looking for loopholes but I genuinely cannot see any basis in rules where Skyfire is limited to the gun.
The model has a gun with Skyfire, therefore it fires at full BS.

I am hapy to be proven wrong but I would like to see some hard basis in rules to 100% confirm it.


EDIT:




I have my beardy hat on and am going to attempt to cement my argument now. If you disagree with this, please find some way of disproving my argument.

A model with this rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers. Unless it also has the Interceptor rule, it can only fire snap shots against other targets.


Looking at the first sentence in isolation, we can break it down into 2 sections: The first deals with the requirement, and the second is the effect or bonus.


]A model with this rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule.....

A Soulgrinder using it's Harvester fulfils this condition. While the model does not have Skyfire, it is firing a weapon with the special rule. This therefore leads to the resolution...

...fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers.

The requirement is that a model, with either Skyfire or a weapon with Skyfire. Nothing in this second rules block references the gun at all.
'A model,..., fires using its normal Ballistic Skill. when shooting...'

The bonus to hitting Flyers extends to the entire model, but the requirement is only a single weapon being fired.
The Soulgrinder meets the conditions of using a Skyfire weapon, and therefore 'the model' uses it's full BS.
Not the weapon, the model.

As said I can handle being wrong, but I want it to be proven beyond doubt. If I am error, where is the error and why is my interpretation not valid?

No you see the rule where it says a model or a weapon means exactly that; the model or the weapon fired.

Your argument has no basis in the rules, it only has misunderstanding.

According to your argument a single model with Skyfire would give it to the rest of the unit(after all is is A model); which is clearly right out.

The model or the weapon has to have the rule, and when the model has the rule all his shooting attacks have the rule.

So are you firing a weapon with skyfire when you are during the other guns?

while A weapon the model is firing has skyfire and all weapons are fired at the same time, How each weapon is fired is resolved using its own rules.

so a model has 2 weapons. weapon 1 has skyfire and weapon 2 does not.

- Assuming the model itself does not have skyfire.
1st point, does the model have Skyfire, no he does not.

Firing Weapon 1 - does this weapon have skyfire - yes it does, it benefits from the skyfire rule.

Firing Weapon 2 - does this weapon have skyfire - no it does not, it can only fire snapshots at Flyers.

While the model might be firing both weapons, each one is resolved only with the weapons own rules.

When he is firing Weapon 2 he is not firing Weapon 1 even though the effects are resolved at the same time. Shots from weapon 2 are not shots from Weapon 1, ever and as such would not benefit from Weapon 1 rules.

FlyerMM wrote:
While the model might be firing both weapons, each one is resolved only with the weapons own rules.

That would be probable RAI, but isn't backed up by the Skyfire rule as written.

A model firing one weapon with Skyfire and one weapon without is firing a weapon with the Skyfire rule. As such, and as per the Skyfire rule, the model fires at full BS at flyers.

I very much doubt that was the intention, but the rules simply don't specifically address models firing multiple weapons where only some of them have the rule, and the rule as written applies a blanket benefit to the model.

if you use that logic to allow weapons other than the one with skyfire to fire with full ballistic skill, then you must also apply the same logic to the Gets Hot special rule as it uses the same wording.


and that just makes absolutely no sense, Your plasma cannon should not melt down just because you rolled a 1 to hit with your bolter.

FlyerMM wrote:
if you use that logic to allow weapons other than the one with skyfire to fire with full ballistic skill, then you must also apply the same logic to the Gets Hot special rule as it uses the same wording.


and that just makes absolutely no sense, Your plasma cannon should not melt down just because you rolled a 1 to hit with your bolter.

I'll take your word for it, since my rulebook is at home so I can't check the Gets Hot entry.

However, I would point out that the Gets Hot comparison is uneccessary. It makes no sense for Skyfire to apply to all of the model's weapons either. I rather specifically said that I doubted that interpretation was the intention of the writer... But it is how the rules currently stand.

Mozzamanx,

The Skyfire rule does not exist in a vacuum. It does not tell us what to do when a model or weapon without this special rule fires at a model that is in Swooping or Zooming mode. The rules for that can be found in the Hard to Hit entries in the sections covering Flying Monstrous Creatures and Flyers (on pages 49 and 81, respectively).

Page 49: "Shots resolved at [Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures] can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule (see page 42)."
Page 81: "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule, as described on page 42)."

The wording of each rule is slightly different, but their meanings are precisely the same. When resolving shots at a Swooping FMC or Zooming Flyer model, we can only resolve them as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire rule.

Shots from a Soul Grinder's Warp Gaze? Neither the Soul Grinder nor Warp Gaze has Skyfire. Those shots can only be resolved as Snap Shots.
Shots from a Soul Grinder's Harvester in Skyfire mode? The Soul Grinder does not have Skyfire, but the Harvester fired in that mode does. Those shots are resolved according to the Skyfire special rule.

Your interpretation of the Skyfire rule is only valid if we ignore the Hard to Hit rule for the appropriate Unit Type. However, if we ignore the Hard to Hit rule for the appropriate Unit Type, we're not resolving shots at Zooming Flyers or Swooping FMCs as Snap Shots to begin with, so the Skyfire rule (and any interpretation of it) is irrelevant.

 insaniak wrote:
A model firing one weapon with Skyfire and one weapon without is firing a weapon with the Skyfire rule. As such, and as per the Skyfire rule, the model fires at full BS at flyers.

No, because a model is only "firing a weapon with Skyfire" when it is resolving the shots from the Skyfire weapon. When it is resolving shots from a non-Skyfire weapon it is no longer "firing a weapon with Skyfire". Shots from different weapons are resolved "simultaneously" for purposes of "which order did these hits arrive in", but each weapon is still its own distinct sequence of rolling dice.

The fact that each weapon uses its own dice doesn't mean that the model isn't firing two weapons.

 insaniak wrote:
The fact that each weapon uses its own dice doesn't mean that the model isn't firing two weapons.

The model is firing two weapons during that shooting phase. The model is only firing a specific weapon if you are actively in the process of resolving its effects. The Skyfire USR only applies at that time, while you are resolving the effects of other weapons you are no longer firing the weapon with Skyfire.

 Peregrine wrote:

The model is firing two weapons during that shooting phase.

Right. And so if one of those weapons has the skyfire rule, the model is a model that is firing a weapon with the skyfire rule.

Snip

Simple question: since the Skyfire rule specifies model or weapon, which has the Skyfire rule? if you think the weapon transfers its rule to the model, does that mean my chaos lord's combi-bolter now has shred because he has a lightning claw?

Peregrine wrote:

The model is firing two weapons during that shooting phase. The model is only firing a specific weapon if you are actively in the process of resolving its effects. The Skyfire USR only applies at that time, while you are resolving the effects of other weapons you are no longer firing the weapon with Skyfire.

Lost me there.

Skyfire applies before you even roll to hit. You look at all of your weapons you want to shoot and see that one has skyfire. Reading the skyfire rule you see that "a model ... firing a weapon with this special rule fires using its normal BS..."

Is the model firing a weapon with this special rule? Yes. Therefore it uses full BS on everything. Rule has now been read and applied before rolling any dice because all shooting happens simultaneously.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Simple question: since the Skyfire rule specifies model or weapon, which has the Skyfire rule? if you think the weapon transfers its rule to the model, does that mean my chaos lord's combi-bolter now has shred because he has a lightning claw?

Is the model attacking with a melee weapon with that rule while firing the combibolter? Don't see how you can do that.


Compare the wording of skyfire to sniper ( literally right next to it in the rule book).

Sniper is specific about the shots being from the weapon. Skyfire says from the model.

Now compare skyfire to specialist weapon or two-handed. All three of those state "a model..."

RAW and RAI seem to line up and say that yes, skyfire transfers to other weapons in your list when all are firing.

Then the FMC and FLYER rules come in and say cool now which of those weapons don't have skyfire those are resolved as snap shots unless the firing model has Skyfire...

Either way I haven't heard which has the rule: the model or the gun?

Also this is a two way street so not only do you snap fire with your non-skyfire weapons at flyers and FMCs you now also snapfire at all non-flying targets by that very same rule.

So RAW if you fire the Harvester cannon your Warp Gaze still snap shots at FMCs and Flyers due to hard to hit, but you then also only snap shot at non-flying things with Warp Gaze and can not fire Phlegm in the same turn as the Harvester cannon at ANY target.

The Skyfire rule, not being granted to the Soul Grinder, would apply to the Harvester. Any other shots, not having Skyfire, would be snap shots.

How is this difficult to comprehend?

page 81 for flyers Hard to hit rule states that only snap shots may be taken at a zooming flyer," unless the model or weapon has skyfire".

Since the model does not, and the second weapon does not, I don't see how that can be read any other way. The second weapon must take snap shots.

FlyerMM wrote:
page 81 for flyers Hard to hit rule states that only snap shots may be taken at a zooming flyer," unless the model or weapon has skyfire".

Since the model does not, and the second weapon does not, I don't see how that can be read any other way. The second weapon must take snap shots.

Because if you parse out that sentence it tells you.

Does the model or weapon have Skyfire? Yes. Then only snap shots do not have to be fired.

clively wrote:
RAW and RAI seem to line up and say that yes, skyfire transfers to other weapons in your list when all are firing.

No. Scroll up a bit and read my previous post. Better yet, I'll lay it out again.

Skyfire is only necessary because we are required to resolve shots at Swooping FMCs and Zooming Flyers as Snap Shots. The reason we resolve shots in that way is because the Hard to Hit rule for each Unit Type tells us to do that. However, that's not all that those rules tell us.

Page 49: "Shots resolved at [Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures] can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule (see page 42)."
Page 81: "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule, as described on page 42)."

Now, at the very least, it's impossible to claim that the designers may or may not have intended for the Skyfire special rule on a weapon to apply to all of the model's shooting attacks. They clearly didn't. People can stop pretending that there is some question as to intent. Fortunately, what clears up that question of intent isn't some design note, but rules telling us that shots at Swooping FMCs and Zooming Flyers can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

FlyerMM wrote:
page 81 for flyers Hard to hit rule states that only snap shots may be taken at a zooming flyer," unless the model or weapon has skyfire".

Since the model does not, and the second weapon does not, I don't see how that can be read any other way. The second weapon must take snap shots.

Because if you parse out that sentence it tells you.

Does the model or weapon have Skyfire? Yes. Then only snap shots do not have to be fired.

No it wouldn't, neither the model nor the weapon have Skyfire. The other weapon does, not the one in question being fired.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

FlyerMM wrote:
page 81 for flyers Hard to hit rule states that only snap shots may be taken at a zooming flyer," unless the model or weapon has skyfire".

Since the model does not, and the second weapon does not, I don't see how that can be read any other way. The second weapon must take snap shots.

Because if you parse out that sentence it tells you.

Does the model or weapon have Skyfire? Yes. Then only snap shots do not have to be fired.

No it wouldn't, neither the model nor the weapon have Skyfire. The other weapon does, not the one in question being fired.

RaI I'd agree with you

RAW he is also right. You must snap fire unless the model or weapon firing has skyfire. That is literally what the rule says. Does Warp Gaze or the Soul grinder have Skyfire?

Yeah, the flyer entries do more or less 'fix' the wording of the skyfire rule.

Agreed taken in isolation the Skyfire rules do give benefit to all weapons if you're firing a skyfiring weapon but the hard to hit rules fix that, well half of it. It does mean hilariously that RAW if you fire the Harvester cannon at a ground target you must snap fire with your other weapons too due to the same wording in the skyfire rules that would have given benefit to the non-skyfire weapons

So all the original poster has done with his attempt to break the rules is prove in RAW his Soulgrinder is worse...