Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I received the following letter in my email today at 10:13 AM PST:

As you may be aware we have removed the ‘Alien vs Predator Board Game’ Kickstarter page.

We recognise that the closed site holding page says that there is an IP issue with this project. Unfortunately Kickstarter do not allow any other default page.

Please be assured though that the Game is still in development (we are in the latter stages of licensor approvals) and we will continue to keep you updated.

These updates will continue via the Kickstarter email list and via our website newsletter. You can also join our official forum at forum.prodosgames.com and follow us on Facebook (www.facebook.com/prodosgamesltd) or Twitter (@ProdosGames).

The pledge manager will remain open until shortly after the final products are shown, therefore allowing you to continue to adjust the products you have selected. You will receive due notice of closure of the Pledge Manager one week before it closes via the newsletter and your KS email.

Keep an eye on your email for updates.

If you have any queries or questions, please don’t hesitate to contact Prodos Games customer services manager at agata.mazurek@prodos.co.uk.

Thank you again for your support
Prodos Games LTD

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
The fiction is the hold-up? Since when did Fox start caring about the quality of Aliens or Predator fiction?

Ever since mega-movie universes have become a thing (ie: Marvel Universe). Typically movies have always been stand alone, maybe a trilogy but they have always been self-contained. That momentum sold products, toy lines and other items until that horse was dead. When they needed to update the story or universe, they would then do a reboot or remake. Although it was semi-started with Lord of the Rings which lead to Hobbit and a huge commercial success. At that time also movies like Iron Man, Captain America, Thor and Avengers which also cross-platform not only to movies but to TV shoes like SHIELD... Fox has hopefully figured out they are sitting on untapped and wasted resources, which they keep screwing up with each new movie release or remake (ie: X-Men) because they don't pay attention to fiction.

Fox has so much wasted potential with what they control with licenses it isn't funny. Sure its made money but it is now proven that when handled differently, it could make a lot more. Unfortunately they don't seem to work well with planning for the future, it seems that each project are treated as stand-alone instead of planning for possible future releases. While everyone else has been adapting they have been left behind. There are a few times they could of been the first to really pioneer something like that, even with Aliens and Predators... there was potential with Prometheus before they decided to make it "Not-Aliens". Maybe now they are trying to get that together... highly unlikely but one can hope.

 Alex C wrote:
To be fair, Fox has a monopoly on Prodos' mouth parts, and their vocabulary has been pretty much limited to variations of "soon".

Blizzard should sue Fox, everyone knows Blizzard Entertainment has the trademark on Soon(tm)!

Strange we haven't talk with them about the release date, in fact we haven't talk about AvP with them at all. Release date will be set once FOX come back to us with changes they want to make to the game.

There is probably a bit of a word game going on here. To be fair BoW did not say it was a release date nor did they say it was releasing then. They said that they are aiming to have it out, that doesn't mean an actual release time by 'legalese' standard. That means finalized approved process and starting fulfillment of KS, not actually delivered given the time frame. A release date would be for when it goes retail as release dates are not "KS fulfillment" but retail. It makes sense to make that they would shoot for Salute though because given the background, at this point, they can't actually show it until its fully approved and finalized. It is in their interest to be demoing, showing and even taking pre-orders at that point. It is also prefaced by him stating "the impression I'm getting".

 cincydooley wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
These guys are a joke.


I wish I had a way to cancel at this point. I canceled other KS orders and have sold off a ton of stuff due to an upcoming move to a smaller place, but as much as I rag on Prodos and their gak poor communications, really did want a good Aliens board game. I'm past wanting it at this point.

I'm sorta feeling the same way......

Yeah pretty much feel the same way. I want an aliens board game but at this point I don't really want it anymore as I've moved on to other things. They stopped responding to my emails about a refund.

 cincydooley wrote:
I still have to figure out if I have to reclose my Pledge Manager. I should probably get on that so I get my things.

You should be able to access the pledge manager through the old link, then when you verify information to the right there should be a close button. At least on mine it was on the right side, had to select it to close mine.

 DaveC wrote:
It would appear the we shipped 400 units last week was incorrect if they can only process 40 per day that's only 200 per week (max 280 if they work 7 days) and don't email us about shipping ( because I don't think anything has gone out yet)

Technically the amount of orders processed in a day doesn't impact how many orders could have been shipped in a previous week. Those orders could have been stockpiled and ready to go ahead of time. Given the amount of people with unboxings, playing the game and posts I've seen, 40-200 are both too small of a number as well. Now whether that 400 also includes the amount that were picked up at Salute, that is a different story. It isn't uncommon for a company to include those in the numbers of "Shipped/Delivered" when making a count.

 warboss wrote:
I suspect that is one reason they did it without asking/notifying you. The other is likely to have the ready excuse of "how can we ship to you when your pledge manager isn't even finalized?!?".

I forget when or where it was posted but at one time there was a post where they stated they reopened all pledge managers to update final shipping information. Backers were supposed to re-verify everything, probably hoping for some last minute additions as well, then close it to show that everything was finalized. I initially ignored it because I thought I recently closed it, unlike some friends who had closed it ages ago. So I figured I would be fine. When I did check back it was still open so I closed it.

 krazynadechukr wrote:
The fact backers don't have their games yet, but stores & ebay stores are already selling them to Q Public!

There will always be ebay sales before all backers get product. Considering a good portion of US people picked up pledges at GenCon, I can see many of them selling them. Some got their copies from retail first, then selling their pledge they picked up. Others just tired of waiting will be selling their box as well. This isn't entirely new as I've seen this with many KS, people who get pledges first starting to sell them.

 cincydooley wrote:
Hardly a blind fanboy. Hardly a fanboy at all, in fact.

I think the bitching and moaning has reached a fever pitch and I think it's sad and pathetic, especially since much of it is predicated on blatant mistruths.

Just pointing out I'm not a fanboy... but I do like to play devils advocate a lot. ^_^

PomWallaby wrote:
How is any UK backer reasonably expected to collect from GenCon? I paid to have it shipped to me, I shouldn't have to chase after the few copies going at cons. Also, whilst Prodos is active on FB (and twitter) there are plenty of unanswered posts and frustrated backers.

To be fair UK backers had access to AvP at Cons before US backers. Although I do understand that you feel you shouldn't have to go pick them up, that however is a choice. It was available sooner and the choice was to wait for it delivered. Granted if you weren't going to any of those cons the given choice is to wait. There will always be frustrated backers unfortunately. I do find it amusing when I compare things like AvP to Kingdom Death though, always interesting to see how fan bases are different. As for the questions, many questions have been answered it is just that people don't like the answers.

Big Jim wrote:
However, for me I see a lack of direct communication with backers, I'm unable to contact Prodos as their UK phone line doesn't work, they are not responding to polite and civil e-mails and they are not responding to either polite or hostile messages on their Facebook page.

What email are you using, many people have been using the wrong email honestly. In fact even I initially used the wrong email when emailing to pick up AvP at GenCon. Other than that I've had no issues at other emails with them, although responses are about 1-2 weeks out. It probably depends on what is considered a polite and civil email, just because an email is polite and civil but contains information about taking them court or saying they are misleading, doesn't mean someone would probably respond. I'm not saying your emails said that, it was just an example that one perons polite and civil doesn't necessarily match up to another person's perception.

AvP is what is known as a Miniatures Board game or Board game with miniatures, which is different than a Board Game. It does play on a game board, but it also isn't strictly confined to simply just a board. It is more a Miniatures Board game because the pieces are multi-pieced that need to be assembled and are typically a higher quality detailed miniature than board games.

Board Games are usually board games or more closely CMoN style games that are playable straight out of the box, without the need to clean and assemble miniatures.

There are people that cross into both categories but there are people that also stay strictly within their categories as well. It is an interesting market with varied opinions, compared to standard Board games (with no miniatures).

 Moses Bad wrote:
Well, you can have it either cheap or good - both is a rare occasion.
And obviously they went with cheap.

It isn't that is rare, it is just not always the decision made as you can only choose 2 of the 3 methods between Cheap, Good, Fast.

You can do "Cheap" and "Good" but that usually means it will take a lot more time to complete.
You can do "Cheap" and "Fast" but then the quality isn't that good.
You can do "Fast" and "Good" but then it is more expensive.

It looks like they went with "Cheap" and "Fast" which does mean the quality will be lacking. Given that delays already and they need revenue, it was clear they wouldn't choose "Good" as an option.

 Alpharius wrote:
It's largely irrelevant.

Dakka is the biggest and most active forum of its type.

For the most part, it also has the lightest touch from a Moderation perspective too. (I'm not kidding!)

There's very little 'clamp down' here - so it is what it is.

I think most users prefer it that way.

There are definitely vocal people in Dakka but it honestly isn't meant to be malicious, for the most part, people are just passionate. Even those who I've had 'strong' disagreements with, we don't hold grudges against each other and at the end of the day will sit down and play games, drink with each other. Since there is a light amount of Moderation, there is definitely a greater amount of discussions that can get heated though. The trick is to not take it personally. Even in the Palladium/AvP threads where accusations are thrown around, it is because despite given 'reasons' don't necessarily feel like they fully answer questions/issues. There are many reasons for that but ultimately it leads to speculation which people will naturally twist words... welcome to the internet.

 Grumpae wrote:
I'm not even sure they intended to deceive or if they were just passing along their own hopes rather than realistic completion dates. It would have been much better to be open, rather than give us a guess.

Oh, and whoever threatened their employee, is a douche.

Like most things it was probably a combination of both. Every company will like to spin a positive side on things, that is part of PR. There probably were some good intentions they planned to keep, but things get sidetracked or there are delays. One delay in one area, causes delays in other areas and it is an avalanche unfortunately. I think the main issue is they are trying to reach out to people as people, which on a smaller scale for smaller KS that works out great. For larger ones not so much as everyone is rabid and just wants their stuff, it tends to meld into a mob more than individual people as they all get lost in the mass. Sticking to facts and numbers, post total numbers for the whole project, then post how many has shipped and how many is outstanding along with regional locations (use percentages if you don't want exact numbers), when you ship, post how much, did it go by boat, plane and when delayed post about it immediately. At this late in the game, don't try to be personable, let that be handled by customer service behind the scenes and just trudge through the mess. Then once finally done, you can go back and post what was learned, plans to prevent it from the future, lessons, etc.

 Todosi wrote:
Wait, now there IS a difference between the retatil and KS versions? I thought retail was getting the same thing we were? When did that change?

Had they made that a point in their communications it might have consoled some of the backers.

The announcement was made August 14, was posted on Facebook as well as this thread. I had thought I got an email too but I can't remember, I know I got a couple emails but didn't really pay attention to them. Based on what I've seen discussed a lot of people thought it was possibly happening and not happening so there was some shock in changes happening suddenly.

Ultimately I believe the decision came about not only because of increased manufacturing costs but needing to provide a retail version to sell, without negatively impacting Kickstarter backers. The increased costs meant reducing the cost of the manufacturing where they could. It looks like that meant a thinner material... not sure if that means worse quality. I line most of my boards with superglue, which makes the ends not fray and last almost indefinitely (something I learned from Battle Systems terrain KS).

Currently the retail version is supposed to be, "the retail will be different from the Kickstarter version you will be getting, the box weights less by over 1KG (different materials used) and will be smaller by 3cm (with a new layout). There will also be a reduction in the number of tiles (a few corridors will be removed plus flamer and blast template is also game- since they are not used in the core board game at all).".

That is the current retail version. Anything left out there is stranglers or has been sitting with other distributors but the stores I know have all been getting the new retail version.

xowainx wrote:
Are backers who haven't received their copy yet going to end up with the new "budget" version?

Backers will not receive the retail version, they will be receiving the fat box version.

 Moses Bad wrote:
Counters, only time will tell, but those are handled again and again. A lot of companies offer plastic tokens, makes me wonder, why that idea never gotten round for AvP.

Plastic counters increase cost, cheaper to go board method. Not to mention it lets them later produce plastic, acrylic or 'special' counters/tokens as additional add-on sales. You can seal the counters with superglue or use a epoxy sticker to top them and protect them as well.

Most things I normally put in a bag anyways and use MDF tokens... plus I have stuff to use my cool ModCube counters for. ^_^

 Moses Bad wrote:
Uhm, most, if not all backers went in on those objective tokens - do you think, anybody would've complained (back then) or shyed away from the idea (back then) to spend another 15 to 20 bucks to get a set of plastic tokens? They would've taken it, guaranteed. That's why I wrote "offer", not "put in for free".

I didn't know you were talking about additional KS items/add-ons vs thinner stock on the retail games. Doing it as part of the KS as additional add-ons would have been good, although it was awhile ago before plasitc tokens and acrylic laser cut things started becoming almost a standard goto add-on for kickstarters. Yeah I didn't go in for objective tokens, just miniatures and main game. I used to go in for those things in KS but found I end up swapping them out for other things later anyways... but that is just me.

For those people are are adverse to being on Facebook, this was posted about an hour ago.

We are half way through the day and this is what is going out from Prodos tower, we should double that by the end of the day, also please remember to check out our blog.prodosgames.com (new post should be there today)

They don't look like slim-boxes at all. Not to mention retailers wouldn't get them packaged up in 1s and 2s. You'd expect them to at least order half a case if not a full case.

In response to if any of those boxes were retail

KS stuff, well you really think I would show off retail stuff going out knowing that KS are waiting for theirs? You are really forcing us to stop any updates until we fulfil the KS... really...

Also a report from someone in Germany who received their shipment from the Aug 10/11th batch that went out.

To make it short: My game arrived TODAY!!!

I'm one of the 10th/11th August guys here to bring the good news. Today I found a similar packed package in my stairway: AvP: The Hunt Begins arrived! It was delivered (to germany) via UPS. Thank you very much Prodos-Team for taking care and re-sending it. I really hope you were able to find those missing packages. So far, everything looks fine and I will check later again and work on the miniatures! smile emoticon Now I have to find the old update again about the "new" retail version, because I feel like buying it another time, but of course want the same version (maybe the german one this time!) smile emoticon I assume I will probably just buy one additional copy at Spiele Essen 2015

 CptJake wrote:
They sure as gak have sent out stuff to web store customers and retailers even though "KS are waiting for theirs"

Since the Aug 14th update, restocks and retailers have been getting the retail version. They were not shipping anymore of the 'KS' boxes anymore. Technically they also haven't shown shown pictures of retail stuff going out in pictures either, except for the one pallet (which was thin boxes) that was in the video update.

I must of missed it, when did they say they were alternating weeks of shipping?

 CptJake wrote:
And before August 14th they were sending out KS copies to web store customers and retailers, and even the current 'retail' version has the KS exclusive resin figures. Basically they are trying to cut cost on the retail version, hoping to sell enough to be able to finish their KS fulfillment.

I don't think it is as clear cut as cutting cost on the retail to generate money to finish KS Fulfillment. I also believe the decision was made for multiple reasons. There are probably some contract fulfillment quota or guarantees set forth with their licensing, possibly to maintain it. It isn't unusual that a license require something being published (publishing could require sales) and/or if enough time passes otherwise it reverts back to the heir company. Unfortunately even though backers have paid for it, those usually won't be enough to qualify it to meet contract requirements. Obviously that is just a guess based on when I have been involved with licensing deals with board games before and probably none of us would see or get a hint of what the contract actually entails.

Yes the obvious reason was to cut costs since they said cost of manufacturing went up so they had to make changes to reduce costs but this had a side effect of creating a different version. They can now fulfill retail orders without technically impacting KS fulfillment, in other words someone getting a copy meant for them. Being a different version means that it has less stuff, thereby giving the overall snowflake feeling back that KS boxes are different than Retail versions. Even though backers got it late, they still get to retain their version theoretically meaning the KS version have more bang for their dollar. So although done for costs, it is sort of a PR move as well as possibly a requirement to meet contract obligations (which they've hinted at before).

 Morikun wrote:
I think I can expect no more than nothing but after all... I tryed...

Honestly... when dealing with a situation like this where an order is wrong from a KS, to get something done it is better not to preface it with any personal feelings and judgments. It is all in how you deliver a message that can determine getting a response. At this point they already know they've messed up. They already know that there are people unhappy and you are just trying to get something corrected. Having dealt with campaigns like this where items are late, people are upset, I've found getting replacements and corrections to be easiest that way. When I had my issues that was all I did and it was sorted out in a few days with stuff arriving a few weeks later. I probably would have simply said something like:

Hello,

I just received my Kickstarter pledge box.

I had asked for a French version but this one was English. Also it looks like I was sent a Retail version instead of the Kickstarter version. I am missing tiles, the templates and the tiles appear to be the thin ones I've seen with the Retail version.

How can I get this corrected? Here is my order number and information....

 Moses Bad wrote:
With all due respect, I mailed Prodos couple of times. I only received a peep from them, when I was dropping verbal bombs.

As I don't know when it was sent or who was working at the time since they have made multiple changes of emails, I unfortunately can't comment further. I can tell you that I received responses from 6 months before GenCon and I got stuff corrected after GenCon. Having received replacements I haven't had further communication with them... other than some other projects but was told sculpting is busy until late October. Every Kickstarter I've dealt with I've just been fortunate to not have any issues getting responses and replacements so I can only give advice on what worked for me. *shrugs*

biggusdoggus wrote:
While technically Hysterical Games is a separate company, it's actually owned and run by one of the Prodos staff..

Source?

 DaveC wrote:
http://www.endole.co.uk/company/09325541/hysterical-games-ltd

Rob Alderman co owns Hysterical Games, he's the majority shareholder

Thank you!

 warboss wrote:
I disagree. If they fulfill SOME backers' pledges with better quality items while OTHER backers' pledges get lower quality ones, that is definitely something to take them to task.

How do we quantify or rather validate that one set if lower quality than another set (I'm assuming we're talking tile thickness)? Keeping in mind thicker does not equal higher quality nor does thinner also equal higher quality either, the thickness is technically irrelevant in terms of quality... (that's what she said)

Not sure if this has been posted here but I know I read some people couldn't remember or have access to the Kickstarter page to remember what was on it. Yeah for internet archives! You can browse the updates, etc and this archive it from the day after it ended. There are a few more snapshots as well.

Alien vs Predator Kickstarter - archive
https://web.archive.org/web/20131129142240/http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/513277403/alien-vs-predator-the-miniatures-game

Final point, many of you have aptly observed that at the end of October, we plan to release – to retail – the Alien Queen, Predator Hellhounds and the Power Loader. We are aware that this is going back on a promise we made previously, for which we apologise. We cannot expect you to be understanding, and we do not expect that, but we just want to explain that this decision does not come easily (if it did, we would just release the whole lot); but is a measure made so that we can generate the revenue required to ship out AvP to you guys and sustain our business. We are also coming up to license renewal time; which will of course have a cost attached to it that we must generate the revenue for in order to keep this game alive into the coming years.

mrondeau wrote:
WClose the -ing pledge manager and stop re-opening it.

In reference to Pledge manager being opened, closed, opened. You will not have to re-close it, they will do it automatically when they move to shipping items. However verifying that your pledge manager has an actual first name, last name instead of a nickname is a thing and verifying the shipping address is complete.

 n815e wrote:
I am pretty sure it is against KS terms to run a campaign to get funds to pay off debts.

Playing a little devils advocate... It isn't per say, it all depends on how you define debts and plan to properly fulfill a KS, as paying a previous debt so that one could fulfill a KS would still meet the criteria. There is nothing that says all funds should or have to be used for Project B and only Project B, they don't enforce, check or audit the fund use. As long progression is made on creating the funded project then they are living up to their agreement. People don't have to agree with the use of the funds or like it, that is part of the users, communication, etc side of things. That is also what determines if they decide to do another KS if backers continue backing.

Most businesses operate in this manner in one method or another. Either they obtain credit or pay out of their pocket the initial prototyping, licensing, etc to start a project. The funding goes to help create a project, make it a reality which could include paying off debt to Project A, so money and profit can be focused to Project B. In some cases creators are paying off debts for what they obtained credit to start a project with as well.

CMoN and Mantic for example all the funds from a KS do not go to just that KS, it is used for other projects and even previous KS. However they have a history to delivering and providing, better communication so people will continue to back them. Some don't because they weren't happy and they won't always agree.

Now if a person only spent the KS funds on paying off debts, but didn't progress or start to fulfill a project then that is where there is an issue and against KS Terms of Use, as well as other issues of possible fraud. In the direction of Prodos, it isn't so much that they have mismanaged funds, that is a given, but also not completely within their control to a degree. They are still actively moving forward attempting to fulfill as seen by people getting pledges. If they were the wrong or right pledges, that is a different story. We don't have to agree or like how they've used it but that comes from not backing them on future projects or other means.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joyboozer wrote:
I honestly dont think kickstarter gives a gak about anything as long as they get they're cut.

Yep pretty much that. They are an agent that introduces Person to Project Creator. Once it is funded they don't care. It could effect future projects but anything beyond that is up to the individuals to determine if it was done properly, not done, delivered, not delivered and what action they will take in the future.