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what is their firing arc?? 180 degrees??

can they fire backwards?? cause in the model you cant turn those turrets 180degrees the plates on the huricane bolters dissalow it...they hit the vehicles plating at about 75 degrees!!

opinions?

They're side sponsons, so their firing arc should be 180degree.

 Order Knight wrote:
They're side sponsons, so their firing arc should be 180degree.

No. Their arc is what the model actually allows.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Order Knight wrote:
They're side sponsons, so their firing arc should be 180degree.

No. Their arc is what the model actually allows.

Pretty much this. Same idea as the limited arc on Leman Russ battle tank sponsons, it's what the model allows. Page 72 of the BRB has diagrams, although no actual words for it. 5th ed had the wording above.

Moved you over to YMDC.

The diagram in the BRB shows side sponsons on a Rhino/Predator chassis having a bit more than 180d. arc. The LR, being a bigger model, would have that LoS changed a bit.

If you can ge draw los from the gun to the target you can shoot at it.

Side sponsons are usually 180 ish degree arcs. especially those on the land raider.

its a 180 arc, I think you haven't put them on right if you can only rotate to 75 as mine can go the full 180...

if i remove the protective plates of the guns then i can turn them 180 degrees... if i dont they turn hardy 75 degrees.. strange... you can turn 180 with the plates on?

 Ghaz wrote:

 Order Knight wrote:
They're side sponsons, so their firing arc should be 180degree.

No. Their arc is what the model actually allows.

If this was the case my tanks would onle shoot straight forward. I tend to glue my guns in to help keep them from breaking. side sponsons have 180 arc.

Reread the BRB, you are told that IF glued in place you imagine they arent.

On the newer plastic Crusader/Redeemer if you build it "normally" (without skipping parts) your side sponsons can't rotate 180°, more like 90°

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Reread the BRB, you are told that IF glued in place you imagine they arent.

It also mentions the way the model is assembled has an impact. Not sure in what way though and if this also counts the design of the model. Could be a good idea to quote this paragraph to see what it says. I will have a look later on tonight or perhaps tomorrow.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
its a 180 arc, I think you haven't put them on right if you can only rotate to 75 as mine can go the full 180...

If someone is saying you can't shoot the full 180 degrees because the way your model is assembled or if you glued your sponsons on you're better off letting them 'win' and not waste 2-3 hours of your life playing against someone like that.

Yeah - screw the rules, they're obviously a bad person for following them.

 DarthOvious wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Reread the BRB, you are told that IF glued in place you imagine they arent.

It also mentions the way the model is assembled has an impact. Not sure in what way though and if this also counts the design of the model. Could be a good idea to quote this paragraph to see what it says. I will have a look later on tonight or perhaps tomorrow.

Design is NOT the way it is assembled - it was designed to turn X degrees, but you managed to glue the wrong part etc meaning it only turns X/2 degrees - then you would be allowed to pretend it went the full X degrees

If, however, you build it such that it moves 2X degrees - by ommitting a part, for example - then you still can only shoot as if it could see X degrees. IT works both ways round.

THis impacts some models quite harshly - the Death Rays underslung gun physically AND the way it has been design CANNOT rotate more than about 60 degrees total the other guns get in the way, and you have some plastic "cabling" which, even if the other guns werent there would physically prevent it turning much at all (and that assumes the cables being flexible, not a hard plastic)

By saying that the sponsons cant shoot 180+ because they are glued wrong is like saying you cant shoot the helldrakes baleflamer anywhere but within 45 degrees of its mouth even though the rules clearly saying it can fart its flamer template... Look at the diagram and read the rule book, those are the rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Design is NOT the way it is assembled - it was designed to turn X degrees, but you managed to glue the wrong part etc meaning it only turns X/2 degrees - then you would be allowed to pretend it went the full X degrees

If, however, you build it such that it moves 2X degrees - by ommitting a part, for example - then you still can only shoot as if it could see X degrees. IT works both ways round.

So in essence we are talking about the way a model is assembled from the original design?

This impacts some models quite harshly - the Death Rays underslung gun physically AND the way it has been design CANNOT rotate more than about 60 degrees total the other guns get in the way, and you have some plastic "cabling" which, even if the other guns werent there would physically prevent it turning much at all (and that assumes the cables being flexible, not a hard plastic)

So some potential limitation there for the Necron flyer. I need to remember this, I think down at our store we tend to consider the Necron Death Ray as having a 360 degree rotation. I might have to consider reviewing this for future battles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
By saying that the sponsons cant shoot 180+ because they are glued wrong is like saying you cant shoot the helldrakes baleflamer anywhere but within 45 degrees of its mouth even though the rules clearly saying it can fart its flamer template... Look at the diagram and read the rule book, those are the rules.

Can I ask you interpretation on the rule discussed? Tjhe rule that lets you imaging that your gun can rotate in a normal manner even if you glued it in place.

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
By saying that the sponsons cant shoot 180+ because they are glued wrong is like saying you cant shoot the helldrakes baleflamer anywhere but within 45 degrees of its mouth even though the rules clearly saying it can fart its flamer template... Look at the diagram and read the rule book, those are the rules.

I never said that gluing it wrong would limit its arc.

The OP said that if he assembles it properly it's a ~75 degree arc. That's the design of the model - which is what the rules say to use.

And an older model of the same vehicle allows 180. Now the game becomes like MtG where older models are worth more. Awesome! The rules finally allow me an advantage because I've played the game for 20 years and have old models.

Does the part-metal one allow 180° ? It doesn't look like it from the older pictures I've got of it, but I never bothered getting one before the plastic kit.

Not really. I'm prone to hyperbole sometimes.

The MK1 has a kind of slot that the weapon fits in and you can get just about a 90 degree arc; pretty much the same for the MKII. All of this is based upon my faulty memory because my actual models are so beat up from years of use that the weapons are glued on (not to mention all the layers of paint and varnish).

I should know better than to read YMDC because people who post here generally are very literal. Not necessarily a bad thing considering people are coming here to interpret the rules but I just play for "fun" these days, when I have the time to even play, and getting bent out of shape over this poorly written rules set is a bit ridiculous to me. Even GW tells us that it's meant to be a "Beer and Pretzels" game with people making gentlemanly (gentlepersonly?) agreements on the rules.

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
By saying that the sponsons cant shoot 180+ because they are glued wrong is like saying you cant shoot the helldrakes baleflamer anywhere but within 45 degrees of its mouth even though the rules clearly saying it can fart its flamer template... Look at the diagram and read the rule book, those are the rules.

Noone said that. In fact, they said the opposite - that you can still fire if you assemble it incorrectly, however you are limited by the *design* of the model to tell you the total arc available. Not whatever arc you want it to have.

So if you glue the sponsons straight ahead, you still get the same firing arc as if you hadnt glued them.

 agnosto wrote:
Not really. I'm prone to hyperbole sometimes.

The MK1 has a kind of slot that the weapon fits in and you can get just about a 90 degree arc; pretty much the same for the MKII. All of this is based upon my faulty memory because my actual models are so beat up from years of use that the weapons are glued on (not to mention all the layers of paint and varnish).

I should know better than to read YMDC because people who post here generally are very literal. Not necessarily a bad thing considering people are coming here to interpret the rules but I just play for "fun" these days, when I have the time to even play, and getting bent out of shape over this poorly written rules set is a bit ridiculous to me. Even GW tells us that it's meant to be a "Beer and Pretzels" game with people making gentlemanly (gentlepersonly?) agreements on the rules.

Oh, I'm sorry I thought you were serious, which led me to post since my memory had it that the old one worked the same and the pics I saw of it seemed to show that.
But yeah YMDC is sometimes for clearing rules issues and often to have a fight on what the GW rules failed to say "clearly".

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:

Oh, I'm sorry I thought you were serious, which led me to post since my memory had it that the old one worked the same and the pics I saw of it seemed to show that.
But yeah YMDC is sometimes for clearing rules issues and often to have a fight on what the GW rules failed to say "clearly".

Sorry about that. Though I do recall a vehicle where the sponsons just dangled on either side instead of being attached to the hull at the bottom as well as the top. My first thought was that it was the old land raider but I was wrong on that count. These could be turned completely around...possible the old predator?

Current Predators hang down like that. There are many places sponsons can turn in a 180 arc - Crusaders aren't one.

rigeld2 wrote:
Current Predators hang down like that. There are many places sponsons can turn in a 180 arc - Crusaders aren't one.

Redeemers and regular LR's can turn the full 180 so there is that.

 agnosto wrote:
And an older model of the same vehicle allows 180. Now the game becomes like MtG where older models are worth more. Awesome! The rules finally allow me an advantage because I've played the game for 20 years and have old models.

The Old Predator model had sponsons that turned roughly 90 degrees. The newer ones turn just over 180 degrees, so a penalty for having older, less useful models YEA!

I would say it a design flaw myself, if the other 3 Variants of the same vehicle hve 180+ arcs

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
By saying that the sponsons cant shoot 180+ because they are glued wrong is like saying you cant shoot the helldrakes baleflamer anywhere but within 45 degrees of its mouth even though the rules clearly saying it can fart its flamer template... Look at the diagram and read the rule book, those are the rules.

Noone said that. In fact, they said the opposite - that you can still fire if you assemble it incorrectly, however you are limited by the *design* of the model to tell you the total arc available. Not whatever arc you want it to have.

So if you glue the sponsons straight ahead, you still get the same firing arc as if you hadnt glued them.

Never said anyone did...

An example was given where if a person tried to tell you couldnt and you couldnt convince them otherwise, just let them win or leave cause that person isnt worth your time.

I said what i said because I would never let this kind of person push me around just because they want to right without reading the rules, when it clearly says that ignore any guns that are glued in place (ie turrets, sponsons, etc.)... it was a generalized statement, hence why i didnt quote anyone...

(Here is that example given by Ravenclaw "If someone is saying you can't shoot the full 180 degrees because the way your model is assembled or if you glued your sponsons on you're better off letting them 'win' and not waste 2-3 hours of your life playing against someone like that.")

HI NOS! HOW ARE YOU?!?!?!