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I just got my Imperial Armor 3: Taros Campaign 2nd Edition and was reading through it and came across the entry for the Manta.

I know with the new Apoc book says that D strength weapons can not be saved. However, when reading the entry for the Manta's Energy Shield, which was made for the new apoc rules, says the following.

"The Manta's energy shield confers a(n) [omitted number]+ Invulnerable save against any hit it receives."

Dose this mean that the Manta's Energy Shield can block a D weapon, or dose the rule saying that D weapons can never be ignored win?

That would depend on the wording. If D weapons are "no saves of any kind allowed" then the Manta is out of luck.

Spetulhu wrote:
That would depend on the wording. If D weapons are "no saves of any kind allowed" then the Manta is out of luck.

I can't answer that, I don't own the new Apoc book, only the store owner.

However, the rule for the shield (Energy Shield), states that "The Manta's Energy shield confers a 4+ invulnerable save against any hit it receives." pp. 126 in the FW IA Apoc book.

DirtyDeeds wrote:
"The Manta's Energy shield confers a 4+ invulnerable save against any hit it receives."

Yes. So we need to know if D weapons deny all save types or not.

DirtyDeeds wrote:
However, the rule for the shield (Energy Shield), states that "The Manta's Energy shield confers a 4+ invulnerable save against any hit it receives." pp. 126 in the FW IA Apoc book.

OK, and Destroyer weapons do not allow any saving throws.

In order for the Manta to be protected against Destroyer weapons, it would need to say something along the lines of "The Manta's Energy shield confers a 4+ invulnerable save against any hit it receives, including those from Destroyer weapons."

 Happyjew wrote:

In order for the Manta to be protected against Destroyer weapons, it would need to say something along the lines of "The Manta's Energy shield confers a 4+ invulnerable save against any hit it receives, including those from Destroyer weapons."

That makes sense. Either way, the Manta has 30 hull points, it'll survive a few D shots.

DirtyDeeds wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

In order for the Manta to be protected against Destroyer weapons, it would need to say something along the lines of "The Manta's Energy shield confers a 4+ invulnerable save against any hit it receives, including those from Destroyer weapons."

That makes sense. Either way, the Manta has 30 hull points, it'll survive a few D shots.

And you can get two of them (points wise) for the cost of an Emperor titan!
Personally I think it will have to be FAQed because it is a conflict between "From any hit" and "ignores all saves".

Edit: Although there aren't many str D weapons that can hit it other than the heavy railgun.

True wording

Energy Shield: the Manta's energy shield gives it a 4+ Invulnerable save against any hits it receives.

So no saves against D weapons

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Personally I think it will have to be FAQed because it is a conflict between "From any hit" and "ignores all saves".

The Manta energy shield is a save and the D weapon ignores it. Wheres the conflict? No need for a faq.

 Mywik wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Personally I think it will have to be FAQed because it is a conflict between "From any hit" and "ignores all saves".

The Manta energy shield is a save and the D weapon ignores it. Wheres the conflict? No need for a faq.

Well, I remembered earlier that unline GW, FW actually dose answer rules questions, so we should have an official answer in a little while.

 Mywik wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Personally I think it will have to be FAQed because it is a conflict between "From any hit" and "ignores all saves".

The Manta energy shield is a save and the D weapon ignores it. Wheres the conflict? No need for a faq.

Yes, But it says :"from ANY hit". That could imply that it can take it against STR D.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Mywik wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Personally I think it will have to be FAQed because it is a conflict between "From any hit" and "ignores all saves".

The Manta energy shield is a save and the D weapon ignores it. Wheres the conflict? No need for a faq.

Yes, But it says :"from ANY hit". That could imply that it can take it against STR D.

Restrictive overrides permissive in this case. You need a specific allowance to deny D's ignore-all-saves mechanics to actually do it.

the Eldar Phantom Titan has similar thing and it ignores D weapons IIRC


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also, as a reference, if something is ignoring a HIT, it is diffrent from SAVING.

i.e. in this instance you are saving the hit as opposed to a direct normal save that comes after wounding.

D weapons prevent a roll to save, the save from to hit rolls comes before rolling to wound/damage.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
the Eldar Phantom Titan has similar thing and it ignores D weapons IIRC


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also, as a reference, if something is ignoring a HIT, it is diffrent from SAVING.

i.e. in this instance you are saving the hit as opposed to a direct normal save that comes after wounding.

D weapons prevent a roll to save, the save from to hit rolls comes before rolling to wound/damage.

Then why does it call itself an "invulnerable save"? Which are defined in the rulebook as saves. Which D Strength weapons tend to ignore? The manta shield isnt ignoring hits ... its conferring a save which is ignored. No conflict. The phantom titan explicitly ignores strength D so isnt similar at all.

Nutty, I believe the Titan Holofields specifically state they work against D-weapons or are still worded in a 'negate the hit' wording they had before.

phantoms IIRC state it is to ignore the hit, if the manta is worded the same it must by precident work the same.

and it will be worded an invul save because there are no other catagories of save it could be.

the stregth value of a shot is moot if the wording is regarding a hit, D weapons ignore saves that are taken after the 'to wound' aspect of shooting, in apoc there are things that work outside the normal flow of a shooting phase, the phantom being one of them as it negates hits and as such needs to roll before damage rolls are made.

wording is key and if the above posters are accurate in the wording that it is a save vs hits as opposed to a standard save then it will ignore D weapons the same way a phantom does.

this is important as the manta I believe can o into skimmer mode to dispatch the small army it carries (unless this has all changed with the new book)

I think I might send an e-mail to forgeworld to ask, although you can't ever be certain that something like that would work.
On the other hand, I have figured out that Heavy Railgun are (as far as I know) the only STR D weapon that can hit flyers.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I think I might send an e-mail to forgeworld to ask, although you can't ever be certain that something like that would work.
On the other hand, I have figured out that Heavy Railgun are (as far as I know) the only STR D weapon that can hit flyers.

What about the Necron Tesseract Vault, if I remember correctly, it should have a massive AoE anti air effect.

The Necron Pylon is a non-blast D weapon with Skyfire

 nutty_nutter wrote:
phantoms IIRC state it is to ignore the hit, if the manta is worded the same it must by precident work the same.

and it will be worded an invul save because there are no other catagories of save it could be.

the stregth value of a shot is moot if the wording is regarding a hit, D weapons ignore saves that are taken after the 'to wound' aspect of shooting, in apoc there are things that work outside the normal flow of a shooting phase, the phantom being one of them as it negates hits and as such needs to roll before damage rolls are made.

wording is key and if the above posters are accurate in the wording that it is a save vs hits as opposed to a standard save then it will ignore D weapons the same way a phantom does.

this is important as the manta I believe can o into skimmer mode to dispatch the small army it carries (unless this has all changed with the new book)

They are not worded the same.

Eldar Titan Holo-fields are not a save. It is a special rule which specifically says how it interacts with Destroyer weapons. If it did not specify Destroyer weapons, they would not work.

Nilok wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I think I might send an e-mail to forgeworld to ask, although you can't ever be certain that something like that would work.
On the other hand, I have figured out that Heavy Railgun are (as far as I know) the only STR D weapon that can hit flyers.

What about the Necron Tesseract Vault, if I remember correctly, it should have a massive AoE anti air effect.

CrashCanuck wrote:The Necron Pylon is a non-blast D weapon with Skyfire

I just checked and you guys are right , whoops, AND it has three shots.
Maybe I can stay out of range.. Nope, 10 foot range
Well it probably sots a lot... DAMNATION it's really cheap, and it has an invulnerable save (although worse than the manta's), and gives it to any necrons within a foot.

My only consilation here is that a tiger shark AX-1-0 only costs 200 points more than it for a flyer as opposed to a immobile turret.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
phantoms IIRC state it is to ignore the hit, if the manta is worded the same it must by precident work the same.

and it will be worded an invul save because there are no other catagories of save it could be.

the stregth value of a shot is moot if the wording is regarding a hit, D weapons ignore saves that are taken after the 'to wound' aspect of shooting, in apoc there are things that work outside the normal flow of a shooting phase, the phantom being one of them as it negates hits and as such needs to roll before damage rolls are made.

wording is key and if the above posters are accurate in the wording that it is a save vs hits as opposed to a standard save then it will ignore D weapons the same way a phantom does.

this is important as the manta I believe can o into skimmer mode to dispatch the small army it carries (unless this has all changed with the new book)

So you use invulnerable saves against perils of the warp too?

 Happyjew wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
phantoms IIRC state it is to ignore the hit, if the manta is worded the same it must by precident work the same.

and it will be worded an invul save because there are no other catagories of save it could be.

the stregth value of a shot is moot if the wording is regarding a hit, D weapons ignore saves that are taken after the 'to wound' aspect of shooting, in apoc there are things that work outside the normal flow of a shooting phase, the phantom being one of them as it negates hits and as such needs to roll before damage rolls are made.

wording is key and if the above posters are accurate in the wording that it is a save vs hits as opposed to a standard save then it will ignore D weapons the same way a phantom does.

this is important as the manta I believe can o into skimmer mode to dispatch the small army it carries (unless this has all changed with the new book)

They are not worded the same.

Eldar Titan Holo-fields are not a save. It is a special rule which specifically says how it interacts with Destroyer weapons. If it did not specify Destroyer weapons, they would not work.

Yeah, the titan holo-feilds actually change if you hit or not. Actually, come to think of it Aun'va has something a bit like that, accept with AP values. Logistically he could use that power because the wound is not "saved" but discounted.

I have not used them before so I simply have to ask: Do D level weapons actually have AP's or is it a special rule which simply states no saves allowed?

For those whom are curious as to why I ask I simply want to see the new space pope being pounded on by D-class weapons, and shrugging them all off while looking as smug as only an etheral can be. This can only be possible if they have an AP score, because the space popes special rules directly relate to it. It wouldn't be enough to simply states 'it ignores armour, therefore is AP 1 or 2,' we need to know the exact AP of the weapon being fired in order to evoke the rule.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Actually, come to think of it Aun'va has something a bit like that, accept with AP values. Logistically he could use that power because the wound is not "saved" but discounted.

The wound is treated has having been saved by a cover save.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Actually, come to think of it Aun'va has something a bit like that, accept with AP values. Logistically he could use that power because the wound is not "saved" but discounted.

The wound is treated has having been saved by a cover save.

But not a cover save.

JinxDragon wrote:
For those whom are curious as to why I ask I simply want to see the new space pope being pounded on by D-class weapons, and shrugging them all off while looking as smug as only an etheral can be. This can only be possible if they have an AP score, because the space popes special rules directly relate to it. It wouldn't be enough to simply states 'it ignores armour, therefore is AP 1 or 2,' we need to know the exact AP of the weapon being fired in order to evoke the rule.

Not going to happen. D-weapons don't just ignore all saves, they explicitly ignore any other method for avoiding death (FNP, reanimation protocols, etc). Space pope dies.

As for the Manta, it has a 4++. D-weapons ignore invulnerable saves. Conclusion: if you have a non-blast D-weapon or put your Manta into hover mode D-weapons will hurt it just like any other model with an invulnerable save.

Except that the Space Popes saves says he gets to just ignore any AP1 attack, so an AP2 D weapon would nuke him, but if it was AP 1 he is safe.

Is a special rule or wargear protecting him from the Destroyer weapon? Does said special rule or wargear specifically mention that it can protect him from Destroyer weapons?