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I had an opponent put up a remains in play spell today, "Enfeebling Foe".

His phase ends, my phase comes, I try my hand at casting some spells, no big deal. Comes back around to his turn.

He rolls something like 11 dice - quite potent. But he had nerfed my strength pretty hardcore, so then he says this:

"I'm going to choose to end the magic phase, unless you want to try to dispel that remains in play?"

The rules for remains in play spells say that I can do it anytime during the magic phase. He was trying to say that if I used my dice to dispel it, he would then take his magic phase and cast spells (including, most likely, that one again). Or, if I wasn't going to dispel it, he would just not cast any spells and maintain it.

Is this legal? Is he able to bait this way and force me to take a magic phase in the face, or does he have to choose what spells he's casting first, and if he's not, THEN I get to try to dispel? He claimed since it was his turn he gets to decide the order of things, and therefore gets to see if I'll try to dispel or not first before he puts his stack of dice away and ends the phase.

Is this legal? It seems to me he should have to do whatever casting he wants to do first, then I can dispel at the end once he's done. No?

It's actually pretty muddy, no one really decides any order here, you can choose to dispel the RIP at any point in the magic phase but he's under no obligation to do anything before or after that.
Still what he said was a bit of weird, probably trying to mindgame you.

Well it's "if you dispel it I do a magic phase. If you don't I won't cast any spells. So decide if the magic phase ends or not"

 Spellbound wrote:
I had an opponent put up a remains in play spell today, "Enfeebling Foe".

His phase ends, my phase comes, I try my hand at casting some spells, no big deal. Comes back around to his turn.

He rolls something like 11 dice - quite potent. But he had nerfed my strength pretty hardcore, so then he says this:

"I'm going to choose to end the magic phase, unless you want to try to dispel that remains in play?"

The rules for remains in play spells say that I can do it anytime during the magic phase. He was trying to say that if I used my dice to dispel it, he would then take his magic phase and cast spells (including, most likely, that one again). Or, if I wasn't going to dispel it, he would just not cast any spells and maintain it.

Is this legal? Is he able to bait this way and force me to take a magic phase in the face, or does he have to choose what spells he's casting first, and if he's not, THEN I get to try to dispel? He claimed since it was his turn he gets to decide the order of things, and therefore gets to see if I'll try to dispel or not first before he puts his stack of dice away and ends the phase.

Is this legal? It seems to me he should have to do whatever casting he wants to do first, then I can dispel at the end once he's done. No?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpecBkdpiK4

Yes, I believe this is correct.

Magic goes:
1. roll for winds
2. cast
3. dispel
4. spell resolution
5. next spell (repeating 2-4 until the casting player cannot cast, no longer wishes to cast).

RIP spells can be dispelled in subsequent turns OR during #3. So he hits 1. Gets a bazillion dice. Says I'm not doing 2 right now, you dispelling? If you do, roll it, but then it goes to 5 and he can go back to 2-4. So he can cast it again (if it was RIP from another turn) and you can dispel it again.

He was probably doing you a favor, or at least sparing you some time.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
Yes, I believe this is correct.

Magic goes:
1. roll for winds
2. cast
3. dispel
4. spell resolution
5. next spell (repeating 2-4 until the casting player cannot cast, no longer wishes to cast).

RIP spells can be dispelled in subsequent turns OR during #3. So he hits 1. Gets a bazillion dice. Says I'm not doing 2 right now, you dispelling? If you do, roll it, but then it goes to 5 and he can go back to 2-4. So he can cast it again (if it was RIP from another turn) and you can dispel it again.

He was probably doing you a favor, or at least sparing you some time.

If he decides he has no more useful spells to cast his magic phase ends, so not possible to fake him into using dispel dice.

It's a two player game. It may be his magic phase but you're allowed to dispel RIP spells during this time, at any time. So if he decides not to cast anything that decision is made and you may then interrupt to dispel the RIP.
Your opponent here is essentially trying to cheat the system here by saying, "I don't know if I want to cast anything, so why don't you go ahead and dispel that RIP spell." This is allowed but there's also nothing stopping you from saying, "I'm not sure if I want to, why don't you go ahead and cast some spells first and we\ll see," which is normally how this sort of thing goes anyhow. If he continues to wait while you do the same the whole game falls apart and you might as well say "F*** that guy" and go play some one else.

 Leith wrote:
It's a two player game. It may be his magic phase but you're allowed to dispel RIP spells during this time, at any time. So if he decides not to cast anything that decision is made and you may then interrupt to dispel the RIP.
Your opponent here is essentially trying to cheat the system here by saying, "I don't know if I want to cast anything, so why don't you go ahead and dispel that RIP spell." This is allowed but there's also nothing stopping you from saying, "I'm not sure if I want to, why don't you go ahead and cast some spells first and we\ll see," which is normally how this sort of thing goes anyhow. If he continues to wait while you do the same the whole game falls apart and you might as well say "F*** that guy" and go play some one else.

Not at all - the guy who is casting is quite within his rights to say "I'm not going to bother casting anything unless I need to try and put up that RIP again". If you decide not to dispel, he's happy to let it go. If you decide to dispel, he's free to cast again. Nothing even remotely underhand about it.

Niteware wrote:

 Leith wrote:
It's a two player game. It may be his magic phase but you're allowed to dispel RIP spells during this time, at any time. So if he decides not to cast anything that decision is made and you may then interrupt to dispel the RIP.
Your opponent here is essentially trying to cheat the system here by saying, "I don't know if I want to cast anything, so why don't you go ahead and dispel that RIP spell." This is allowed but there's also nothing stopping you from saying, "I'm not sure if I want to, why don't you go ahead and cast some spells first and we\ll see," which is normally how this sort of thing goes anyhow. If he continues to wait while you do the same the whole game falls apart and you might as well say "F*** that guy" and go play some one else.

Not at all - the guy who is casting is quite within his rights to say "I'm not going to bother casting anything unless I need to try and put up that RIP again". If you decide not to dispel, he's happy to let it go. If you decide to dispel, he's free to cast again. Nothing even remotely underhand about it.

Incorrect.

I didn't say you couldn't do it. But if you don't want to cast unless I dispel and I won't dispel until you make up your mind for sure, we'll be there all day. It's not my magic phase, there's no reason why I should make the first move. It's not underhand but it's still waste of my time.

 Leith wrote:
I didn't say you couldn't do it. But if you don't want to cast unless I dispel and I won't dispel until you make up your mind for sure, we'll be there all day. It's not my magic phase, there's no reason why I should make the first move. It's not underhand but it's still waste of my time.

Hence the video... I thought it gave a nice summary to this situation and why it should not come about

Yeah the way it's always typically worked is that if I happen to have dice left over at the end once they're done casting spells, then I use them for remains in play spells. I've never had an opponent want a RIP to stay so badly that they'd sacrifice their entire magic phase just to keep it.

But I'm kind of leaning towards the "I'll see what I have left after you finish what it is you're doing this phase" interpretation, and it definitely felt shady.

This is the number 1 reason to dispel RIP spells during YOUR magic phase. And the number 1 reason not to play a rematch against that player. It's legal but beardy as all get-out.

This is one of those unfortunate circumstances within the game where there isnt anything illegal about what this player is doing, but it's still kind of a dick move.

 DukeRustfield wrote:

Magic goes:
1. roll for winds
2. cast
3. dispel
4. spell resolution
5. next spell (repeating 2-4 until the casting player cannot cast, no longer wishes to cast).

Sums it up pretty well. He always has the option of casting more spells if he has power dice available after dispelling occurs and RIP spells arent exempt from that. Some people will argue that it is HIS magic phase and therefore he reserves the right to play it to his advantage... others may argue that because it is his magic phase that he should maybe take the initiative and get the ball rolling. Neither argument is really any more valid or correct than the other. Probably says a bit about the gamer himself though.

It's perfectly legal in every way and laid out extremely clearly in the rules as I stated in my post.

It may be his magic phase but you're allowed to dispel RIP spells during this time, at any time

No, you're not. You can ONLY dispel in his phase during the dispel phase. That means he has to skip his first cast phase and give you a dispel phase or cast a spell. Immediately following, however, he can, if he chooses, go back to the cast phase. That's very clear in the BRB and how wizards actually are able to cast multiple spells...

But if you don't want to cast unless I dispel and I won't dispel until you make up your mind for sure, we'll be there all day.

Unless you consider 1 question all day, then yeah. But if he's got 11 dice, 1-3 casters, him asking you if you're dispelling y/n is fine.

It's not my magic phase, there's no reason why I should make the first move.

You don't have to dispel. It is a potential bluff call, however. And I think this adds to the game. If he only wants one RIP spell, period. He can say he's skipping his first cast. Are you dispelling? If not, he ends the magic phase. He loses all his remaining cast dice. You lose all your remaining dispel dice. But it is true that if jumps his first cast subphase, he has the choices now of a) ending the entire magic phase and thus forcing everyone to lose their dice and keeping any RIP spells in play b) going back to the cast subphase. If you called his bluff and didn't dispel and he does b and casts another spell, you can dispel as per usual, including the RIP spell you didn't bother dispelling the first pass.

But some of you seem to be saying he can't go, "I choose not to cast during my magic phase." Of course he can say that and do that. If he does, you can't dispel anything (no spells were cast). This situation above ONLY applies to RIP spells since they are the ONLY thing that can be dispelled in the opponent's magic phase during the dispel section. And it can only be dispelled during the dispel section. Before he casts you can't interrupt him and say you're dispelling his RIP (or dispelling the spells he has yet to cast...). He has to either cast a spell or say he's not casting a spell. Then control passes to the opponent in the dispel section. You can dispel whatever was cast and any other RIP spell(s). If he casts a magic missile and he also has 3 RIP spells in play, you can try and dispel every single one during your dispel subphase. However, he can then go back and start casting again.

Again, I think this is really clear and not in any way cheating, crappy, or underhanded. It is all stated in the BRB for the section on the magic phase and under RIP spells.

Decision to end happens at 2, dispel at 3, phase ends at 5.

You cannot go back to 2 again if you previously decided not to cast.

The mistake many of you make is in thinking this is written and plays like MTG...

It isn't and it doesn't, never has.

No, you're not. You can ONLY dispel in his phase during the dispel phase. That means he has to skip his first cast phase and give you a dispel phase or cast a spell. Immediately following, however, he can, if he chooses, go back to the cast phase. That's very clear in the BRB and how wizards actually are able to cast multiple spells...

You can actually dispel a RIP spell at any time during any magic phase except the one in which it was cast. It's in the RIP rules. You can debate which takes precedence, but the specific will overrule the general.

Unless you consider 1 question all day, then yeah. But if he's got 11 dice, 1-3 casters, him asking you if you're dispelling y/n is fine.

He can ask all he wants, and if my answer is "I won't know until you cast some spells," then we've gone no further. If my opponent says that he wants to skip his magic phase and not cast anything, I'll hold him to it.

 Leith wrote:

You can actually dispel a RIP spell at any time during any magic phase except the one in which it was cast. It's in the RIP rules.

Hey, you're right. And I looked at this exactly. My reading is off lately.

I don't know the order of operations, then. The caster can clearly skip casting to dispel back to casting. But the dispeller can dispel at any point.

I guess it's kind of pointless. He can start off saying do you want to dispel, but you don't have to. Or you can. If he wants to end the turn, you can still dispel, but then he can go back and cast.

The idea that in his turn he can 'pretend', 'bluff' or 'fake' that he isn't going to cast spells is ridiculous.
It is his turn. He determines when he finishes his phase just like every other phase in the game.
Movement phase..he says he's done. He's done.
With magic the player whose turn it is MUST decide when he is done casting because your 'dispel' is reaction.
In his turn he has the final say if he will cast. Otherwise you sit and run in circles waiting until he is done.
I guess 'technically' he could say 'I'm done casting' then after you dispel he could cast...
After that I would just say find a new opponent because it is obvious the type of player.

Well, it was a tournament, and I'm likely to play him again in future tournaments.

He also made a big argument about the soulfeeder/thunderstomp argument I asked about in the other thread, which took a VERY long time and came down to us rolling off. He's kind of the "my cheese is ok but your cheese is cheating" player. I don't mind rules lawyering - I'm just not as good at it in fantasy.

he was correct on the soul feeder issue you had.

and with regards to this:

summery of casting on p29 of the BRB

remain in play spells on p36 of the BRB

step 5 detail on p37 of the BRB

reasoning:

I highlight step 5 detail as this actually clearly states when the magic phase ends, there are a total of 3 reasons for the phase to end:

casting player is out of power dice (given example he is not)

casting player is out of useful spells

all his wizards have had their concentration broken.

those are the 3 steps, now as there were no details given, on the assumption of a lv1 wizard with only a RIP spell, he would not have a useful spell to cast unless you dispelled it.

once you have decided to dispel his RIP spell, and succeeded he then has a useful spell to cast, thus his magic phase doesn't end and he is free to cast it.

the general hostility in this thread is somewhat un-nerving due to the player having actually done nothing wrong. the initiative in this example is actually with the dispeller than with the player whose turn it is, if he wanted to end his phase that's his prerogative, if you decided not to dispel that's yours, if he was to then go on to cast other spells you wold act normally, its literally a case for you to decide.

 Spellbound wrote:
Well, it was a tournament, and I'm likely to play him again in future tournaments.

He also made a big argument about the soulfeeder/thunderstomp argument I asked about in the other thread, which took a VERY long time and came down to us rolling off. He's kind of the "my cheese is ok but your cheese is cheating" player. I don't mind rules lawyering - I'm just not as good at it in fantasy.

Then call the TO over as soon as the issue arises. That's the TO's job.

@ Nutty-nutter
I see where you are going but the casting player does determine the process of the magic phase.
The dispel portion is the reaction that comes after casting.
If there is no beginning and end to the phase you just sit and stare at each other...'I'm not casting'...'I'm not dispelling'..
If your opponent says he is done casting this round that should be it, the dispel player can do what he likes and the turn is over.
He starts the phase and makes his decisions. He should not be allowed to back track. He already got his spell for a phase because it was successfully cast prior turn. Allowing him to wait for the opponent to dispel it gives him a zero cost advantage and almost guarantees that he will have the RIP spell in his turn every turn.


I don't see any hostility in this thread.
??

 nutty_nutter wrote:
those are the 3 steps, now as there were no details given, on the assumption of a lv1 wizard with only a RIP spell, he would not have a useful spell to cast unless you dispelled it.

Yes and no. You can dispel a RIP spell at ANY point in the magic phase. His or yours. That's listed under RIP. So while there is a RIP around, you have as much flexibility to continue the magic phase as he does, as you can state, after those 3 steps, you choose to now dispel. Or before the 3 steps or during or in between.

that was my point though.

so for example:

I have a lv1 caster, with a spell that resolves on an 8 and its a RIP spell, for whatever reason you do not dispel it in your turn with power dice, choosing instead to do other stuff, it then rolls back to me, I get 5 dice, usually more than enough to re-cast my spell, my roll gives you 3 dispel dice, now I have no need to cast again unless you dispel my RIP spell.

if I say to you that I will end my phase unless you dispel, or that I intend to end my phase (due to not having any remaining useful spells to cast) and you then elect to dispel my RIP, I can then elect to cast my spell again as a response, you then have the opportunity to dispel again should I successfully cast it.

dice do not drain from the power pool and then from the dispel pool they will empty simultaneously upon the ending of the phase, if a player takes the initiative and elects to dispel a RIP spell at any point the casting player can later cast that spell provided they have not already cast it that turn.

no matter which way this gets looked at, the initiative in this example is with the dispeller as the caster will otherwise end the phase proceeding to the next phase of his turn.

The problem with putting the initiative on the Dispeller, and in this case, was it was the first thing the active player did.

He was not out of useful spells or dice.

If the Dispelling player had dispelled the RiP right away, the casting player might have gone on a 3 or 4 spell spree with free advantage.

He was basically forcing the dispeller to use his dispel dice at the beginning of the magic phase so he could have free reign with his other spells.

I like the idea of teasing out your opponent's dice in the magic phase--that's what this magic phase should be all about, in my opinion, not throwing 6 dice at spells, hoping for box cars.

With that said, if he says, "I'm ending the magic phase", doesn't that, ya' know, mean he's going to end the magic phase? Or are people claiming that he can interrupt his own action?

Look, it's a gentleman's game here, are you sure he wasn't just being polite and saying, "Ok, I'm going to end the magic phase." ((Thinks to himself, that there's a remains in play that his opponent hasn't dispelled)) "Unless you want to dispel the remains in play." ((No need to cheat him out of his option to dispel a remains in play)).

If I tell someone I'm going to do something I'm not trying to trick them into throwing dice so I can get an advantage...

A point worth making, Matt1785.

I guess what I'd be considering is: you can attempt to dispel RIP spells "at any point" during the phase. Is there anything that allows you to cast spells at that same speed?
What I mean is, dispelling an RIP might be an Instant (for those who have never played Magic: the Gathering, I apologize, but it's such a simple metaphor), but that doesn't mean that casting a spell is, too.

That was my issue. The "I'm ending it, unless you want to dispel"

Why couldn't I say "Ok that's fine - but right before it ends, after you're done casting, I want to dispel this RIP spell".

Since it's his turn he decides the order of things, so I guess that makes sense.

Nutty nutter, I believe my other thread about soul feeder says the general consensus is that it works fine. Can you show me where it says otherwise? My thunderstomp is in no way affected by soul feeder.
However, if the thunderstomp does wounds, the fact that I've done wounds in close combat triggers soul feeder.