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So, can I bring superheavy tank like Baneblade/Shadowsword into any game?

if the opponent permits it. I would let you do it if it's not too powerful (like the Eldar Revenant Titan)

 big mek crazygit wrote:
if the opponent permits it. I would let you do it if it's not too powerful (like the Eldar Revenant Titan)

Why would he need a permission? I assume he's talking about standard 40K following the rules of 40K. If there are no house rules he's free to bring whatever that is legal.

If you meant what you said in the sense that everything in your army requires your opponent's permission because theoretically anyone can refuse to play anytime for any reason, for example because he doesn't like the color of your shirt, then my apologies.

 Freakazoitt wrote:
So, can I bring superheavy tank like Baneblade/Shadowsword into any game?

As already said, the FOC has been enhanced by one slot for a single superheavy. The restriction is that the Superheavy must belong to the codex of the main detachment.

 Therion wrote:

 big mek crazygit wrote:
if the opponent permits it. I would let you do it if it's not too powerful (like the Eldar Revenant Titan)

Why would he need a permission? I assume he's talking about standard 40K following the rules of 40K. If there are no house rules he's free to bring whatever that is legal.

If you meant what you said in the sense that everything in your army requires your opponent's permission because theoretically anyone can refuse to play anytime for any reason, for example because he doesn't like the color of your shirt, then my apologies.

yep thats what he meant. Because allot of people are refusing to play against super heavies. Dont know if thats the same for the baneblade, though.

 Therion wrote:

 big mek crazygit wrote:


If you meant what you said in the sense that everything in your army requires your opponent's permission because theoretically anyone can refuse to play anytime for any reason, for example because he doesn't like the color of your shirt, then my apologies.

This is productive how? Hyperbole is not your friend in trying to spread your viewpoint, it only solidifies others in their views.

 big mek crazygit wrote:
if the opponent permits it. I would let you do it if it's not too powerful (like the Eldar Revenant Titan)

What if he don't like tanks? Or too many infantry? Or some special characters? Or flyers? Or whatever

wah someone wants to play 40k differently than I do

Stop that. Nobody is forced to play a superheavy if they don't want to. Call it homeruling or whatever you want, I can also list a few unpalatable terms to describe the attitude of people like this.

 Freakazoitt wrote:

 big mek crazygit wrote:
if the opponent permits it. I would let you do it if it's not too powerful (like the Eldar Revenant Titan)

What if he don't like tanks? Or too many infantry? Or some special characters? Or flyers? Or whatever

Than he wouldn't play them. Are you suggesting we duck tape people to chairs and force them to play your army?

I've no intention of playing a superheavy in a casual game, and if someone has no interest in playing my army that is likewise fine.

-D

I'd be happy to play even a casual game against them if they become accepted in tournaments, which I have doubts that they will since it's a weird supplement that a lot of people aren't going to buy with crazy guns that break a lot of rules.

The question becomes this for casual players who aren't ULTRA competitive (majority of 40k players):

If you invite someone over, this comes with the labor of driving/transporting/arranging/setting up a table, and they only bring the models to field an army that includes a heavy will you play them?

A lot of people here are saying no, but I think in reality people will succumb to just wanting to play AND they will adapt by asking ahead of time which is assumed to be forgotten in the above scenario.

D-weapons really shatter everything we know about 40k, all of a sudden armor doesn't matter and the vehicles negates 80%(conservative) of mosy competitive armies fielded these days. Obviously that % will be forced to change if they do become allowed in tournaments but that gives some perspective.

Either way melta's are still good.

asking ahead of time which is assumed to be forgotten in the above scenario.

I *always* ask ahead of time. If I've forgotten then I'll tolerate whatever game they're looking for as it would be my fault for not getting it clarified.

 Hollowman wrote:
Than he wouldn't play them. Are you suggesting we duck tape people to chairs and force them to play your army?

I've no intention of playing a superheavy in a casual game, and if someone has no interest in playing my army that is likewise fine.

-D

Change "superheavy" to "special character" and this could very easily be a post from a few years ago when they changed special characters into regular army choices rather than explicitly requiring permission. The community got over that change, they'll get over this one too.

 Aijec wrote:
I'd be happy to play even a casual game against them if they become accepted in tournaments, which I have doubts that they will since it's a weird supplement that a lot of people aren't going to buy with crazy guns that break a lot of rules.

The question becomes this for casual players who aren't ULTRA competitive (majority of 40k players):

If you invite someone over, this comes with the labor of driving/transporting/arranging/setting up a table, and they only bring the models to field an army that includes a heavy will you play them?

A lot of people here are saying no, but I think in reality people will succumb to just wanting to play AND they will adapt by asking ahead of time which is assumed to be forgotten in the above scenario.

D-weapons really shatter everything we know about 40k, all of a sudden armor doesn't matter and the vehicles negates 80%(conservative) of mosy competitive armies fielded these days. Obviously that % will be forced to change if they do become allowed in tournaments but that gives some perspective.

Either way melta's are still good.

My group tends to go by the philosophy of allowing any new thing one game's play to see what happens. So if one of my friends unexpectedly brought a Warhound, I'd give it a shot.
We'd leave it until the end of the game to review just how OP it actually is, and then HR accordingly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tuebor wrote:

 Hollowman wrote:
Than he wouldn't play them. Are you suggesting we duck tape people to chairs and force them to play your army?

I've no intention of playing a superheavy in a casual game, and if someone has no interest in playing my army that is likewise fine.

-D

Change "superheavy" to "special character" and this could very easily be a post from a few years ago when they changed special characters into regular army choices rather than explicitly requiring permission. The community got over that change, they'll get over this one too.

There's a big difference between, say, taking Darnath Lyasnder, and taking a SH walker with one or more Str D Large Blast (or bigger) guns.

in terms of the game's legality, taking super heavies is perfectly acceptable so long as you have the correct points, have the entry to refer to the rules and show them at the time of being asked about it and have assembled it correctly.

after that it comes down to social aspect.

Super heavies are already confirmed as accepted in tournaments as GW posted up a couple of days ago that Escalation and Stronghold Assault along with the data slates were all going to be legal in Throne of Skulls in January.

as for people outright refusing to play against super heavies, what exactly are you so afraid of?

is it because these things are an unknown quantity to you (reason for a lot of mistrust in my local gaming group of hyper competitive players) or is it fear of an arms race developing?

I would really like to know why people are getting so hung up on them coming into a standard game, they aren't any more difficult to damage than any other tank, they are just more durable than the traditional vehicles that you have grown accustomed to.

 Selym wrote:
There's a big difference between, say, taking Darnath Lyasnder, and taking a SH walker with one or more Str D Large Blast (or bigger) guns.

There's not much difference in the way the community has reacted. As with special characters, most are actually pretty reasonable, like the Baneblade or 3rd edition Calgar, while a few were a bit over the top, like Baharoth or the Revenant. Just because a couple of units are kinda ridiculous doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bath water.

 tuebor wrote:

 Selym wrote:
There's a big difference between, say, taking Darnath Lyasnder, and taking a SH walker with one or more Str D Large Blast (or bigger) guns.

There's not much difference in the way the community has reacted. As with special characters, most are actually pretty reasonable, like the Baneblade or 3rd edition Calgar, while a few were a bit over the top, like Baharoth or the Revenant. Just because a couple of units are kinda ridiculous doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bath water.

While I agree with the assertion that an idea need not be chucked just because of a few units (Beihnblaades are okay), there is a serious problem in the form of Str D weaponry.
It's an auto-win against armies that do not get Str D, and there are quite a lot of Str D superheavies around.

Eldar have the Revenant, a SH that puts SH's to shame, some parts of IOM and the CSM get Warhounds and Reavers, both of which can take lots of Str D...
Unless you know about these SH before the game and tailor your list to them, you'll almost never win, despite the +1 Vp per 3 HP's damage.

When it comes to an unexpected character, that's a much easier concept to accept, because you can always prep a few bad boys to murderize it (Lascannons, Flying MC's).
Escalation has basically done what Apoc is for, which is to disregard all balance, and let you pay to win (more than usual).

Selym wrote:
Escalation has basically done what Apoc is for, which is to disregard all balance, and let you pay to win (more than usual).

But do you really pay to win? Have you actually counted the $ per point on a Revenant, compared to for example buying usual stuff like Wave Serpents? A Revenant costs 195£ and 900 points, so for every 1£ you get 4.62 points of Revenant Titan. A Wave Serpent costs 28£ and 115 points, so for every 1£ you get 4.1 points of Wave Serpent. In short, it's cheaper to build a 2K pts Eldar army by starting with a Revenant Titan, than going the conventional route.

Huh.

Still though, Str D is an issue.

 Selym wrote:
Huh.

Still though, Str D is an issue.

It's an issue because it treats uberheroes and elite units just like it treats gants and grots. However, in the same style that it causes 'problems' it actually solves them by hard countering ridiculous deathstar units that prior to strength D weapons had no other counter-strategy except avoiding them or denying them vps/objectives.

I'm a big fan of strength D. I doubt that it's something that armies and generals can't solve. Even armies with mass flyers were accepted despite most armies not having any skyfire at first. The starting point isn't very complicated -- Just avoid too expensive eggbasket units and heroes, and take a lot of anti-tank weapons. A lot of players were playing that way already.

I don't think that the superheavies in general have that much survivability considering their points cost. It's going to take you a lot less time to kill a Warhound Titan than an equivalent points amount of for example Predator Destructors. Remember that every exploded result reduces extra D3 hull points, so even a single point blank meltagun can take out 4 hull points which is almost half of what a 800+ point SHV has. What the Warhound has got going for it is the two turbo-lasers its probably packing.

So in conclusion, yes bring a superheavy, but dont bring anything with a str D weapon without discussing the situation with your opponent first for the sake of good sportsmanship

also @ therion, the revenant titan is with worth every point, its just amazing

Bobug wrote:
So in conclusion, yes bring a superheavy, but dont bring anything with a str D weapon without discussing the situation with your opponent first for the sake of good sportsmanship

Pretty much, and if you're going to a tournament where the escalation units are allowed, prepare to get hit by a few strength D pie plates, and prepare your army to kill some Titans.

Setting your models up to remove them without even any sort of dice rolls because of a massive blast D weapon is about as much fun as playing chess with a flamethrower.

dadakkaest wrote:
Setting your models up to remove them without even any sort of dice rolls because of a massive blast D weapon is about as much fun as playing chess with a flamethrower.

Would you have a problem with the superheavy if the massive blast D weapon was houseruled to just be S10 AP1? You'd get your cover saves and invulnerable saves like before.

Frankly, cover and invulnerable saves aren't the biggest issue with D-weapons. I'm more concerned about them destroying tanks on a 2+, regardless of armor value or damage tables.

I'd be more inclined to treat them as S10 AP1 ordnance ignore cover reroll invulns. Even that is a massive nerf...

Corollax wrote:
Frankly, cover and invulnerable saves aren't the biggest issue with D-weapons. I'm more concerned about them destroying tanks on a 2+, regardless of armor value or damage tables.

I'd be more inclined to treat them as S10 AP1 ordnance ignore cover reroll invulns. Even that is a massive nerf...

Well, S10 AP1 ordnance is a good starting point. Whether it ignores cover or affects invulnerable saves is up to tweaking and playtesting. Either way I think the whole panic about superheavies (and the talk of blanket banning all of them) can be solved by just tweaking how the strength D works since that's the only thing that's causing problems. Even the Titans aren't particularly hard to kill considering their points cost. The only problem is the fact they autokill a quarter of your army every shooting phase. If a 900 point Revenant has roughly the same firepower as 4 Space Marine Vindicators (which in total cost a LOT less) I'm sure people wouldn't have any problems playing against it.

 nutty_nutter wrote:

I would really like to know why people are getting so hung up on them coming into a standard game, they aren't any more difficult to damage than any other tank, they are just more durable than the traditional vehicles that you have grown accustomed to.

They are far more durable, far more damaging, and take up far more points. That said, I certainly have the tools to deal with them - Sisters are loaded to bear with AP1, melta and the like. I won't play against them because they make for a poor game and they make for an even worse meta.

I want to play an infantry based skirmish game with vehicle support, which is what 40k has always been. Superheavies distort the entire playing field and create a massive disincentive to play some of the funnest and most fluffy builds out there - what kind of fool is going to bring an ork foot horde or Deathwing terminator list into a meta where superheavies are dropping mass murder all over the field for rounds? Why would I want to play a game that hinges entirely on a race to kill one model before the units that can hurt it turn into vapor?

I've played superheavies plenty of times with my normal army - it can be a interesting gimmick game now and then, but they are not fun at the level normal games of 40k are played at, and the armies that lose the hardest are the one's that are the most interesting and fun to see on the table. You want to beat superheavies, you make a spread out gunline and spam big guns or fast melta transports. End list building.

Here is my take...

I do not mind the superheavy tanks per-see, what I do object to is having it sprung on me without warning, especially as it was that dam imperial strongpoint with the D weapon. A baneblade I could have handled.

It lasted 3 turns- oh and he went first...

There are several ways it could be dealt with as has been suggested countless times.

1. in a random game, if both sides 'agree' to use the big stuff then go for it

2. if its a tourney then its all fair game depending on the TO rules

3. Some people should respect the fact that some would not wish to face a superheavy etc and adapt accordingly. There should be no loss of face if somebody refuses a game because of it- I tried to and was railroaded (it won't happen next time said player will be given a warning shot...)

Otherwise, all I can say is it has hacked me off 40k and gave me the 'excuse' to take a sabbatical and get into other systems I've been itching to have a go at.

However In my case I suspect club politics might come into it, and I might simply refuse to play the said player ever again.

 Selym wrote:

While I agree with the assertion that an idea need not be chucked just because of a few units (Beihnblaades are okay), there is a serious problem in the form of Str D weaponry.
It's an auto-win against armies that do not get Str D, and there are quite a lot of Str D superheavies around.

Eldar have the Revenant, a SH that puts SH's to shame, some parts of IOM and the CSM get Warhounds and Reavers, both of which can take lots of Str D...
Unless you know about these SH before the game and tailor your list to them, you'll almost never win, despite the +1 Vp per 3 HP's damage.

When it comes to an unexpected character, that's a much easier concept to accept, because you can always prep a few bad boys to murderize it (Lascannons, Flying MC's).
Escalation has basically done what Apoc is for, which is to disregard all balance, and let you pay to win (more than usual).

Str D in and of itself isn't that much of an issue when players use tables with enough terrain, both in quantity and size. A lot of batreps I see use what appears to be tournament standard terrain which doesn't leave a lot to hide behind. In my club I watched a game the other day between a guy with a Shadowsword against a SHless Ork list with about 30% terrain but lots of LOS blockers and the Ork player eked out a win in a rather fun game.

Really, I think the biggest problems, apart from terrain but 40k players have never used enough terrain, are Titans. They're so tall they have LOS to everything and multiple D weapons. Without these units there really isn't much in Escalation that's too terrible.

And yes, unexpected characters are able to be dealt with in the context of 6th edition but back in 3rd and 4th a lot of them could roll right up your battle line, consolidating from combat to combat without a care in the world, ignoring your shooting phase in the process. For many armies the game became entirely about stopping them before this could happen, very much like a Revenant Titan now only for way less points and the procss took a few turns more.

It'll be interesting to see the next few codexes to see if there are any better options to deal with SHs than pre-Escalation books have.

 Freakazoitt wrote:
So, can I bring superheavy tank like Baneblade/Shadowsword into any game?

You can

But may you? you would have to discuss it with your opponent or check the Torny rules to see if its allowed.

I miss playing Floorhammer, like we use to play back in 2nd Ed. Everyone would their collections and all their Armorcast and Epicast models. I had my 6 Warhounds, 1 Baneblade, and all of my 1st Ed Imperial Guard. Loved those day!

So, yeah, I'm okay with Super-heavies in 40k ... with in reason. The new Escalation book seems reasonable.

SJ