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Hey folks, I had an interesting happenstance at a friendly game this weekend, which even after the game we couldn't figure out what should really happen. We had a large blast land on two troop units that were entirely within a Void Shield. After scatter we decided that there were 10 models hit, across 2 different units. Now the rules for void shields state that if a unit gets hit while under a void shield, the shield gets hit instead. So the question is, since a blast is only firing one shot, does the void shield only get hit once, or 10 times?

Assuming the void shield only takes one hit, what happens to the hits on the second unit if the hit from the first fail to bring down all the void shields? The rules tell us the void shield should get hit instead, but the void shield has already been hit from the blast once... It seems like no matter what we do we are breaking a rule.

Thanks for the replies!

-James

RAW, 10 times

But honestly, I'd walk away from any player who attempted to pull that one on me.

10 times. Don't stick infantry underneath the shield

If the unit gets hit INSTEAD hit the shield - not and hit the unit and then the shield. It is clear but people says you hit the unit and the shield then the unit. That makes no grammatical sense,

It is clear if you hit ANYTHING instead hit an AV 12 shield. INSTEAD being the key work and not and.

People want to hit the unit AND the shield not just the shield.

If a target takes a hit INSTEAD hit the shield. Clear as day.

Yes, and the target too 10 hits. Instead the shield gets hit, 10 times.

Anything else isn't following the actual written rules

How can you hit the target if you INSTEAD hit an AV 12 shield? Your hiting the unit and the shield.

And we've been through you basic misunderstanding of this process before.

The SHOOTING ATTACK hits the shield. The SHOOTING ATTACK is a blast so to determine if. It hits a target you place the blast over. This generates a number of hits. These hits - which are still part of the he shooting attack - instead hit the shield.

You seem to think you stop the process before calculating the number of hits, which is wrong. Until you calculate the number of hits you have not HIT with a blast marker.

Your way also doesn't work, as a blast can't hit a special rule. So your made up single hit is even less secure an interpretation, as the number if hits has to be undefined.

You are hitting the unit and the shield. If I am told instead of going to work stay home. I don't go to work then go home.

Instead of hitting the unit hit the shield. You are still hitting the unit instead of the shield then hitting the shield and then hitting the unit.

Bring that to any college professor and ask if I instead hit X do I still get to hit the original target also? The answer is no instead precludes that. That is grammar, Instead is clear doesn't mean and.

There is no way you place blast count the hits then hit shield and then hit the unit again. If the blast hit INSTEAD hit the AV 12 shield. Again it isn't and hit unit then hit the shield then hit the unit again. That really makes no sense hitting twice.

Sigh.

Then blasts can never hit the shields, as you cannot place the blast over the shield as it isn't a unit, meaning you cannot know if it hits.

Of course, that isn't how the actual rules work. After all the VSG rules state if you hit the unit INSTEAD you hit the shield.

So first you have to work out if you hit the unit. Which you do by placing the blast marker and counting the number of models hit

Your shooting attack now has a number of hits associated with it. These hits are intercepted by the shield, and you start to resolve these hits against the shield - otherwise you aren't complying with the rule that the SHOOTING ATTACK - all of it, including the hits you generated - is hitting the shield.

You are failing to support your argument with a single rule, so as per the tenets will be ignored in future.

Oh, and your crap work / home analogy doesn't exactly replicate the situation, does it? Not even close.

Extensive discussion here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/570101.page

Each weapon shot does 1 hit on the Void Shield, yes. So his large blast takes down the Shield. Any other weapons (or other blasts) then hit the units as normal.

If you had more than 1 shield, he would need more shots to Glance/Pen before anything is resolved on the Unit(s).

Wrong. Really, just wrong

If I shoot an auto cannon at the unit, and get two hits, then two shots from one weapon have hit the shield, not one as you erroneously state.

If you fire a blast, then to determine if you hit a unit inside the shield you HAVE to place the blast and count hits. Failure to do so means you are breaking rules, and thus your argument cannot be RAW.

AS such please edit your post to note it is "hywpi" , as per the tenets of this forum.

The blast can hit the shield b/c it tells you to instead resolve it vs an AV 12 target making it the target of the hit not the unit.

You all want to count the hits. I am saying once you hit INSTEAD hit and AV 12 target like the rules states. I think until a FAQ comes out both side will say it is absolutely their way.

The rule states if it HITS instead hit an AV 12 shield. It doesn't say if hits start counting what it hit then go hit the shield. If it HITS you can immediately use to rule to INSTEAD hit an AV 12 target, Why can you not?

So your saying if a blinding venom attack hits my unit under shield it would 1st take an init test then I would resolve the attack against the shield? So the shield blocks the attack but my unit is blind? No b/c you INSTEAD hit the shield you don't count or resolve anything.

Nope it is RaW: SHA, VSG Rule:"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."
You are told that your attack has Hit the shield ("hits the projected void shield"). Now resolve Phase 4 & Pen rolls.

As for auto-canon each shot hits the shield, yes. 2x Shot = 2x Hit = 2x Shield Pen. Where is the issue?

Black talos - your assertion that one weapon is one hit. I was showing it wasn't.

Your attack at step three has 10 hits. Why are you only rolling one at step four? RAW you remain incorrect on this,

Mythra - wrong, it still isn't a unit, or a model, so cannot be hit by blasts. At all. So, IF your interpretation were correct you made vsg immune to blast.

Luckily it isn't correct.

What about blinding venom? You never answered b/c it shows your wrong.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your attack at step three has 10 hits. Why are you only rolling one at step four? RAW you remain incorrect on this,

"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."

RaW is clear: I've split the phrase into it's core components.
Red = Requirement 1: Outside the shield
Green = Requirement 2: Score hits (10 from a blast, 1 from an autocanon shot, 1 from a Vulcan Mega-bolter)
Orange = Result: Hit on the VS

Note that the last part does not ask for a roll of the Hit, simply "you have a hit".

Black - sigh. You broke it down, but clearly don't understand the components and the language construction.

Orange shows it "hits" the shield. What hits the shield? The subject is "shooting attack" , so we know the shooting attack hits the shield, and the shooting attack has 10 hits. So, when we resolve the shooting attack against the shield, we resolve the 10 hits first against the shield.

It doesn't say "you have a hit", as you erroneously concluded

Mythra - no, I just didn't continue reading your post to the end, as your first few statements were wrong. You also don't seem to understand the sentence construction.

You take blind checks immediately on being hit, but instead the shield is hit first. So no, it doesn't prove me wrong.

Ok so your blast hits the shield 1st and I agree. Finally we agree.

No, we don't agree. The instead intercepts the hits on the unit onto the shield.

How are you hitting a non-unit, non-model special rule, using the blast rules? Page and paragraph .

 BlackTalos wrote:
Note that the last part does not ask for a roll of the Hit, simply "you have a hit".

You really can't stop making up rules around this, can you?

The rule does not say "you have a hit". It doesnt use the singular anywhere. You made up the words you have in quotes.
Please do not make up rules.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Each weapon shot does 1 hit

That last thread was more than 10 pages showing, proving, demonstrating and supplying examples that this is WRONG.
Has never been correct.
Will never be correct.

Until you can actually prove this is true (a day that will never come) please don't post this incorrect information.

There is no need to reopen this debate, simple read the old one:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/570101.page

Best just ask GW

it would be nice if GW responded to email requests but regardless of if they did nobody on here at least would take it as fact unless it was a screen shot of the email from the design team as a whole with a countermanded GW approved sticker on...even then some would reject it as its just an email and not in an FAQ....

needless to say, within the last debate the one shot = one hit crew couldn't answer how a blast weapon worked or indeed any of the other weapons worked without inventing a rule step out of thin air.

(examples being beam, blast, template)

its just people wanting to use their shields to protect infantry and the rules don't allow it.

it will be possible that GW may alter the wording but I find it unlikely due to the rule being printed in 2/3 books.

that being said if you follow the RAW to the letter it works out like this:

non blast weapons roll to hit, you total the number of hits that the weapon has scored on the unit, you then transfer those hits to the shield due to the instead hits the shield criteria of the projection rule, you then resolve each of those hits sequentially until you either run out of hits or all the shields are down, you then resolve as normal.

blast/beam/template weapons substitute the rolling to hit with placing a template, the total number of models under the template = the number of hits caused by the weapon, those hits are then transferred to the shield as per the criteria of the projection rule, you then resolve each of those hits sequentially until you either run out of hits or all the shields are down, you then resolve as normal.

what people are not getting their heads around is that the shield is protecting each and every model within the unit.

but again, that other thread degenerated into a nu-uh because I said so stamping the feet and digging in heels.

your best bet really is to take the rule for void shields, take the rule for blast/template/beam weapons and then sit down with the shooting phase rules.

read each in turn and draw your own conclusion as you are unlikely to find help online until an FAQ turns up to support one way or the other or even change the wording completely.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, we don't agree. The instead intercepts the hits on the unit onto the shield.

How are you hitting a non-unit, non-model special rule, using the blast rules? Page and paragraph .

Mythra- still waiting for this citation, as per the tenets. Or you can go back and edit your posts to make it clar you are not arguing from a rules basis.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Orange shows it "hits" the shield. What hits the shield? The subject is "shooting attack" , so we know the shooting attack hits the shield, and the shooting attack has 10 hits. So, when we resolve the shooting attack against the shield, we resolve the 10 hits first against the shield.

This is the part the other side of the argument never got:

We know, per Green, that the shooting attack scores 10 hits on the unit. So we know that our 1 Shot, 10 Hits attack is substituted (definition of "instead") by "shooting attack on the shield". No transfer of shots, "hits the projected void shield". Your shooting attack hits the shield.

I guess the main issue that was never solved is this:
"hits the projected void shield" - Hits as and indefinite Verb, not a plural Noun.

A truck hits a car. - Not 10 trucks...
The man hits the door. - Not 10 men...
Any shooting attack hits the Void shield. - Not 10 Hits....

Again, bested by Grammar that some will never get...

If I say: Any truck that hits potholes instead hits my car. - It doesn't matter if there were 2,10 or 20 potholes, there's only 1 Car.

The shooting attack has hit, and has 10 hits.

Cite exact page and para that allows you to ignore these number of hits from the shooting attack, then the page that allows you to make up "1" as the number.

Bested by rules you cannot cite, as well as a failure to understand 40k rules, even when explained.

Oh, and none of your analogies are even close to the same situation. The shooting attack has one of more hits associated to it, yet you are cheating AND making up a rule that only one hit is transferred.

Page, para or concede

RaW: SHA, VSG Rule:"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."

1. Any shooting attack that hits a target

2. instead hits the projected void shield.

1) 10 hits.
2) Hit on the shield.

Now please cite exact page and para that allows you to transfer 10 Hits from a Unit to 10 Hits to a Void shield.

The shooting attack has one or more hits associated to it, yet you are cheating AND making up a rule that all hits are transferred.

Page, para or concede

BlackTalos : How do you determine how many hits there are? By rolling to hit the target. What is the target? The unit within the void shield is the target.

Once those hits are determined, the shooting attack instead hits the shield, so we resolve those hitS against the shield instead of the target unit (and we've already determined how many hits there are to be resolved .. and it's not 1 in this particular scenario).

You have no rule or permission to reduce the number of hits to 1 just because you are told to resolve them against the shield instead of the target unit. If you are using the shield as a new target (which is not what the rule says) then you can never hit it because it is not a model, nor a unit.

TL;DR - You have already determined there are 10 hits .. resolve them against the shield instead of the unit

You place blast over unit, roll scatter, determine that one or more models are under hit (i.e. the number of hits on the target)

Only then have you 'hit a target within the shield'.

Or would the blast scattering off the unit STILL 'hit" the shield? That would be silly.

Raw it works fine.

Here is a picture for proof on how void shields work.



As you can see the blast would have wiped out the two individuals kissing, however it instead hits the dome, one time and explodes. When targeting this area, the shooter believed he would wipe out the target and placed his aim on his targets.

Raw we have to use our imagination, and I have thus forth proved how a SHIELD works.