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I'm curious what everyone thinks about buying models from non-GW, non-hobby store sources? I've seen differing opinions on a lot of these, but I'm having trouble discerning the important difference. Either way, neither GW nor your local hobby stores are making money, and you're getting the models for cheaper but with a higher risk of quality problems. Ebay gets you official models, but used and with a good chance of damage or missing pieces. Recasts also get you official models, but it's a crapshoot for whether or not they'll have casting problems. Third Party Models, meanwhile, are usually not going to have model defects, but the actual quality of the original model rarely compares to Games Workshop and/or Forge World.
I won't name any of these sources, for obvious reasons, I'm just curious what people think about buying from these sources. And I'm curious why people feel these ways!


(Note: I'm not talking about third party casters who make unique models that you can't otherwise get, like the Chapterhouse Studios' Mycetic Spore, for example.)

All of the above for me, No game stores nearby and no want to support GW. So its as much 3rd party as possible.

 Swastakowey wrote:
All of the above for me, No game stores nearby and no want to support GW. So its as much 3rd party as possible.

Coincidentally, about five minutes after posting this I saw the ad for Anvil Industries in the top right corner of this website. And they've got some damned cool stuff...

Yea your eyes really get opened when you see what other options are out there, especially when a lot of these companies make models with GW in mind...

I wish hi-tech miniatures would produce some basic troop types. They have detailed models with a very detailed over the top gothic feel.

Waaaghpower wrote:
I've seen differing opinions on a lot of these, but I'm having trouble discerning the important difference.

The important difference is that ebay and third-party models are legal, while recasting isn't. It's the difference between getting some cheap clothes from walmart because you can't afford the expensive big-name stuff, and going to the high-end store and stealing some clothes off the shelf.

There are some amazing models out there that other people make/remake. On the flip side there are some terrible ones too. If it comes from Russia or China then you have a 50/50 of getting what you want. In particular I like NotFailCast or Kromlech. Takes awhile and its hard to get ahold of them but good stuff so far.

 Peregrine wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I've seen differing opinions on a lot of these, but I'm having trouble discerning the important difference.

The important difference is that ebay and third-party models are legal, while recasting isn't. It's the difference between getting some cheap clothes from walmart because you can't afford the expensive big-name stuff, and going to the high-end store and stealing some clothes off the shelf.

You still pay, its like buying stolen goods is a better example. Except they only stole the idea not the product.

I'll happily grab 3rd Party when possible, many of the alternative suppliers (Anvil, Mantic, WGF) either rival GW or are cheap enough to justify the slight difference in quality.

Similarly with Ebay, if the deal's good there's no point not going for it. Perfectly legal, the only reason you'd avoid it is if you wanted to support a local stockist.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I've seen differing opinions on a lot of these, but I'm having trouble discerning the important difference.

The important difference is that ebay and third-party models are legal, while recasting isn't. It's the difference between getting some cheap clothes from walmart because you can't afford the expensive big-name stuff, and going to the high-end store and stealing some clothes off the shelf.

You still pay, its like buying stolen goods is a better example. Except they only stole the idea not the product.

I'd say it's more like buying bootleg copies from flea markets. (Like 'Gussi' handbags or 'Nicke' sneakers.) Unlike 'Stolen property,' nobody is losing money or inventory, just business. As far as GW profits are concerned, recasts and ebay are no different.

Cant beat Ebay prices.

If GW ever had a sale in its history would be different

D'oh!

I think I never bought anything besides a couple of paint pots in a GW store.

GW models are strictly ebay ware for me.

As for third parties - If I ever see something I'd love to have, I'd buy. So far there were only a couple of comparatively expensive Kromlech cybork legs that caught my eye, but if I see something I love - why not.

Recasts - don't know how much you are allowed to touch this point without catching one with the banhammer. Let's just say that there are some interesting tutorials around on youtube for the interested person.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I've seen differing opinions on a lot of these, but I'm having trouble discerning the important difference.

The important difference is that ebay and third-party models are legal, while recasting isn't. It's the difference between getting some cheap clothes from walmart because you can't afford the expensive big-name stuff, and going to the high-end store and stealing some clothes off the shelf.

You still pay, its like buying stolen goods is a better example. Except they only stole the idea not the product.

I'd say it's more like buying bootleg copies from flea markets. (Like 'Gussi' handbags or 'Nicke' sneakers.) Unlike 'Stolen property,' nobody is losing money or inventory, just business. As far as GW profits are concerned, recasts and ebay are no different.

Exactly, counterfeit is the best and only way to describe it.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Except they only stole the idea not the product.

No, that isn't true at all. Third-party "we swear these aren't space marine melta guns" and similar things use the basic idea, but are still their own design. Recasts, on the other hand, are a literal copy of the existing model. It's the difference between making your own music that is very similar to a band you love, and selling copies of your favorite band's latest album.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Waaaghpower wrote:
As far as GW profits are concerned, recasts and ebay are no different.

No, it's very different. A model on ebay was bought legitimately from GW at one point. A recast was not.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Except they only stole the idea not the product.

No, that isn't true at all. Third-party "we swear these aren't space marine melta guns" and similar things use the basic idea, but are still their own design. Recasts, on the other hand, are a literal copy of the existing model. It's the difference between making your own music that is very similar to a band you love, and selling copies of your favorite band's latest album.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Waaaghpower wrote:
As far as GW profits are concerned, recasts and ebay are no different.

No, it's very different. A model on ebay was bought legitimately from GW at one point. A recast was not.

No recasts stole the idea.

The "not bolter bolters" are inspiration not stolen ideas. difference.

Hence why one is legitimate and the other is not.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Except they only stole the idea not the product.

No, that isn't true at all. Third-party "we swear these aren't space marine melta guns" and similar things use the basic idea, but are still their own design. Recasts, on the other hand, are a literal copy of the existing model. It's the difference between making your own music that is very similar to a band you love, and selling copies of your favorite band's latest album.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Waaaghpower wrote:
As far as GW profits are concerned, recasts and ebay are no different.

No, it's very different. A model on ebay was bought legitimately from GW at one point. A recast was not.

Thing is, no matter whether someone buys from Ebay, third party or recasts, no new money falls in GWs pockets.

Of course, I think discussing recasts is not legal. So... Lock thread?

 Swastakowey wrote:
No recasts stole the idea.

No, they stole the exact model. Recasters don't look at a model and make their own that's as close a match as possible, they get the real model, make molds from it, and start producing their own copies. That's not just stealing some abstract "idea" for a product, it's making literal copies of it.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Except they only stole the idea not the product.

No, that isn't true at all. Third-party "we swear these aren't space marine melta guns" and similar things use the basic idea, but are still their own design. Recasts, on the other hand, are a literal copy of the existing model. It's the difference between making your own music that is very similar to a band you love, and selling copies of your favorite band's latest album.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Waaaghpower wrote:
As far as GW profits are concerned, recasts and ebay are no different.

No, it's very different. A model on ebay was bought legitimately from GW at one point. A recast was not.

How is that important? A model bought on Ebay makes no more money for GW than a recast. GW wants all purchases to sit in your basement forever when not in use.
Regardless of source, any instance where someone aquires models but does not give GW money is exactly the same.

As for your music comparison, it's closer to selling copies of the band's CD and selling your own cover of the songs. It's the same song, just performed by someone else.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Thing is, no matter whether someone buys from Ebay, third party or recasts, no new money falls in GWs pockets.

Again, no, it is not the same. An ebay sale might not directly put money in GW's pockets, but that ebay sale only happens because someone did buy it from GW in the past. And the ebay market creates new sales for GW, since people are more willing to buy new models if they know there's good re-sale value on ebay if they don't want them anymore. Neither of those things are true for recasts, which just take sales away from GW without offering anything in return.

Gw does care about the difference, but that is because it's illegal to buy recasts but not the other options.

So they can actively stop it in the former case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Thing is, no matter whether someone buys from Ebay, third party or recasts, no new money falls in GWs pockets.

Again, no, it is not the same. An ebay sale might not directly put money in GW's pockets, but that ebay sale only happens because someone did buy it from GW in the past. And the ebay market creates new sales for GW, since people are more willing to buy new models if they know there's good re-sale value on ebay if they don't want them anymore. Neither of those things are true for recasts, which just take sales away from GW without offering anything in return.

But you can sell recasts on ebay as well, you know.

That point is sorta moot.

Supposedly, in the case of FW stuff, the quality is sometimes indiscernable... And often superior in finecast matters! Apparently.

But don't ask me about that, not my speciality.

I've never ordered from GW directly, but I usually try and buy things from my FLGS as much as I reasonably can. It's worth it for me to pay a little bit more on something that's already expensive if it means that I can keep my gaming store open.

I've purchased from eBay a few times, especially for things I can't get (or can't get easily) in a store, like bitz. The reason I don't use eBay that much is because of eBay. It's great for sifting through a massive pile of krill for several weeks looking for a fish, but it's not very good for "I want this, so I'd like to buy it now" kinds of situations.

I've never purchased recasts from an ethics standpoint, nor do I intend to do so. I don't want to be the kind of person who contributes to driving up prices and closing down stores for everyone else. I'd much rather the content creators get compensated than a base forger who is only capable of copying what others have already created.

As for third party models, I've never bothered, myself. Honestly, the biggest problem I have with non-GW models is that they're just not as good. Those rare people who can do things of the same quality or better are also absurdly more expensive. I have GS skills, but fixing a big pile of crappy models (especially if the scale isn't quite right) to make them look good enough isn't worth my time, and buying nicer models when I could buy the regular ones and spruce them up a bit isn't worth my money.

Waaaghpower wrote:nobody is losing money or inventory, just business

Umm... what do you think business is?

Last I checked, the definition of business was trading money for inventory. Not getting money and not giving inventory is the opposite of business. As such, losing business IS losing money and inventory, just like losing money and inventory IS losing business.

The difference between Ebay and Recasting is that if you're selling something on Ebay, somewhere along the line that product has been sold by GW in some capacity, so they have profited from it. Whatever you're selling, GW has already gained from it.

Recasters buy one copy of the model to cast, but then anything produced by them is never seen by GW and they don't make any money from it. Hence, it's theft.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Regardless of source, any instance where someone aquires models but does not give GW money is exactly the same.

Sigh. Why is this so hard to understand? Sales of used models still involve models that were legally purchased from GW. Sales of recasts do not. The ebay sales of legal models generate new sales directly from GW because people are more likely to buy new stuff directly from GW if they know it's a low-risk purchase because ebay exists. Recasts, on the other hand, will never under any circumstances produce profit for GW at any point.

It's the same song, just performed by someone else.

No, because a cover is still not the same. It might have a lot of the same elements, but it's still a different song. With recasts the only difference is whether you're buying a legal product, or supporting IP theft and slave labor.

Ailaros, please don't intentionally misunderstand what I'm saying. Obviously, losing business is bad. I never said it wasn't. However, which is worse:
Losing inventory, money, AND business,

or just losing business?

I'm sure you can go to dozens of forums and find pages upon pages of arguing whether or not copyright infringement is theft, lol.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
But you can sell recasts on ebay as well, you know.

Yes, which just generates more illegal sales. The point is that ebay sales of real models still benefit GW, while recasts don't.

Unfortunately in the free market, when there is only one retailer of a good, others pop up to fill in that void of competition.

FW is pretty much a monopoly on those models.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm sure you can go to dozens of forums and find pages upon pages of arguing whether or not copyright infringement is theft, lol.

It's definitely theft, but it's not as severe as directly taking the product from its owner.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm sure you can go to dozens of forums and find pages upon pages of arguing whether or not copyright infringement is theft, lol.

Well yeah, there's always an endless horde of sociopaths who want to turn their desire to get games/movies/whatever without paying for them into some kind of moral high ground. That doesn't make them right.

 Peregrine wrote:
No, because a cover is still not the same. It might have a lot of the same elements, but it's still a different song. With recasts the only difference is whether you're buying a legal product, or supporting IP theft and slave labor.

But a lot of covers aim to be the same and the differences come from how badly they failed. Kind of like recasting something and introducing flaws?