Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

does it take away the invun when it hits or after it wounds?

It states that when a wound is allocated to a model it immediately loses an invun save etc etc

So is it after you hit the opponent and then you allocate the wound to that model or is it after you have wounded?

Wounds are allocated before rolls are made. When you fire at a guy and say something like "Okay, it hits this guy because he's the closest model to my squad," that is allocating the wound.

At least as I understand it. Which, mind you, half the reason I post in YMDC is to learn because discussion and making mistakes is a good way to make sure you get it right in the future.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Wounds are allocated before rolls are made. When you fire at a guy and say something like "Okay, it hits this guy because he's the closest model to my squad," that is allocating the wound.

At least as I understand it. Which, mind you, half the reason I post in YMDC is to learn because discussion and making mistakes is a good way to make sure you get it right in the future.

Tht is the way I read it as well, as soon as I hiot and I allocate the wound it strips the invun save and then I roll to see if the wound hurts him. I just want to double check because that seems so powerful as the assassin hits on a 2+ with a 4+ re roll.

You allocate wounds, not hits .

 SRSFACE wrote:
Wounds are allocated before rolls are made. When you fire at a guy and say something like "Okay, it hits this guy because he's the closest model to my squad," that is allocating the wound.

False. Well, unless I misunderstood you.
Roll to hit. Invul not gone.
Decide which wound pool to allocate. Invul not gone.
Allocate wound. Invul gone.

Out of curiosity, why is this relevant? The only gun in the game that can fire the shield breaker is on the Vindicaire who can pick his victim...

When I said "rolls," I meant "saving throw rolls."

Which is what you're saying, right?

 SRSFACE wrote:
When I said "rolls," I meant "saving throw rolls."

Which is what you're saying, right?

Right. Normally when I shoot, before I even roll to hit I say "this model is closest, agreed?" To remove bias that may be there from results of the roll.

Hence why your statement confused me :-)

rigeld2 wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
Wounds are allocated before rolls are made. When you fire at a guy and say something like "Okay, it hits this guy because he's the closest model to my squad," that is allocating the wound.

False. Well, unless I misunderstood you.
Roll to hit. Invul not gone.
Decide which wound pool to allocate. Invul not gone.
Allocate wound. Invul gone.

Out of curiosity, why is this relevant? The only gun in the game that can fire the shield breaker is on the Vindicaire who can pick his victim...

so the invun is gone before i roll to wound? roll to hit, and that is all that is needed?

No, I missed a step. You have to roll to wound after rolling to hit.

Sorry

rigeld2 wrote:
No, I missed a step. You have to roll to wound after rolling to hit.

Sorry

has there been faq as to whther he adds 3 to armour pen?

I would like to point out that a unit that dots not use mixed saves (such as a warlock council, or terminator squad without a sergeant) would still get an invuln save against shield breaker.

Faq not needed, all weapons with the Sniper special rule are strength 3 vs vehicles.

 Happyjew wrote:
I would like to point out that a unit that dots not use mixed saves (such as a warlock council, or terminator squad without a sergeant) would still get an invuln save against shield breaker.

Faq not needed, all weapons with the Sniper special rule are strength 3 vs vehicles.

why would they get an invun?

Without mixed saves, you take saving throws before wounds are allocated. So if you had a squad of terminators with a sarge, the order is:
1. Roll to hit.
2. Roll to wound.
3. Allocate wound.
4. Take applicable save.

Where as without a sarge:
1. Roll to hit.
2. Roll to wound.
3. Take saves.
4. Allocate wounds.

 Happyjew wrote:
Without mixed saves, you take saving throws before wounds are allocated. So if you had a squad of terminators with a sarge, the order is:
1. Roll to hit.
2. Roll to wound.
3. Allocate wound.
4. Take applicable save.

Where as without a sarge:
1. Roll to hit.
2. Roll to wound.
3. Take saves.
4. Allocate wounds.

vindicre has deadshot so he gets to choose which model is allocated the wound, so the wound is allocated before any saves are made eg he vindicare can choose to shoot at the heavy flamer terminator so he deadshots him and rolls to hit him etc etc

The vindicare doors get to allocate the wound, however, you still follow the order for shooting, and this would not allocate until after saves are taken.

 Happyjew wrote:
The vindicare doors get to allocate the wound, however, you still follow the order for shooting, and this would not allocate until after saves are taken.

it says in the codex ;wounds caused by a vindicare's shooting attacks are always allocated by the vindicare's controlling player'.

That highlights that you are wrong because it says roll to hit, roll to wound, and that wound is given to any model the vindicare wants, then make saves.

Which doesn't override the shooting sequence. It only overrides wound allocation.

 Happyjew wrote:
Which doesn't override the order. It only overrides wound allocation.

Before we debate anymore why don't you post the rules of what you are saying. So post the rules and then the page so I can checkand then we can debate it some more. But even if what you are saying is correct as in the order, the codex overrides the rulebook and the codex says wounds are chosen by the vindicator, so the vindicator hits, then wounds, then chooses the target.

shield breaker says when a wound has been allocated that model loses any invun immediately. So if your whole squad has the same invun then even if the order you are saying is correct it doesn't matter because the model that is chosen by the vindicre is the allocated model and loses the invun.

Page 15 of the BRB. Note that we are discussing a unit that is not using mixed saves (such as one with a character, or one with FNP).

 Happyjew wrote:
Page 15 of the BRB. Note that we are discussing a unit that is not using mixed saves (such as one with a character, or one with FNP).

Just went on google and could not find anything that agrees with you, not one thing. I don't agree with you and neither did my google search.

As the codex says, roll to hit, roll to wound, allocate that wound to a model of your choice, saves can then be taken.

The codex specifically states that the wound from shield breaker is made before any saves are taken. iot states that when a wound from shield breaker is allocated to a model that model loses any invun saves, remaining saves (if any) can then be taken.

The codex states that shield breaker is allocated and strips the invun save before saves are taken.

You keep insisting that the codex overrides the whole shooting sequence. It doesn't. It overrides exactly one thing in the shooting sequence - how the wound is allocated.

 Happyjew wrote:
You keep insisting that the codex overrides the whole shooting sequence. It doesn't. It overrides exactly one thing in the shooting sequence - how the wound is allocated.

I'm telling you that the codex states that the invun save is lost before any saves are taken. You can't take an invun save against shield breaker because it removes the invun save before saves are made. You can't make an invun save and then allocate because of 2 reasons. The first being deadshow which allocates after wounds but BEFORE saves are made. and secondly because of the wording in the shield breaker rule which states that all invun saves are lost before any saves are taken.

you are wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
The vindicare doors get to allocate the wound, however, you still follow the order for shooting, and this would not allocate until after saves are taken.

you allocate wounds before saves are made so that model that has been allocated the wound loses any invun saves immediately

Except you have to allocate the wound before a model loses the invuln save. How are you allocating a wound before you have permission to allocate the wound? The GK codex was written for an edition where all wounds were allocated before saves. 6th edition changed it.

 Happyjew wrote:
Without mixed saves, you take saving throws before wounds are allocated. So if you had a squad of terminators with a sarge, the order is:
1. Roll to hit.
2. Roll to wound.
3. Allocate wound.
4. Take applicable save.

Where as without a sarge:
1. Roll to hit.
2. Roll to wound.
3. Take saves.
4. Allocate wounds.

you have even said that wound allocation is before saves because you put

1. Roll to hit.
2. Roll to wound.
3. Allocate wound.
4. Take applicable save.

so if the squad has the same invun save and the vindicare deadshot allocates a wound then that means tht the wound allocation from the vindicare is before saves are made (something you even said).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
Except you have to allocate the wound before a model loses the invuln save. How are you allocating a wound before you have permission to allocate the wound? The GK codex was written for an edition where all wounds were allocated before saves. 6th edition changed it.

Your arguments are all over the place now and don't make sense. You already gave an example yourself where wound allocation is made before saves when there is mixed saves......

The first quite has two examples. Example 1 uses a unit with mixed saves, as it contains a character. Example 2 uses normal wound allocation as everyone has the same save and no character, or special rules forcing you to use mixed saves.

My argument has been consistent. Non-mixed save unit? Per the rules saves are taken before allocation.

Happyjew is correct in what he is saying. No one plays it that way though. Its a clear case of Raw vs RAI with the edition switch.

 Happyjew wrote:
The first quite has two examples. Example 1 uses a unit with mixed saves, as it contains a character. Example 2 uses normal wound allocation as everyone has the same save and no character, or special rules forcing you to use mixed saves.

My argument has been consistent. Non-mixed save unit? Per the rules saves are taken before allocation.

you're wrong and this argument is getting boring. The rules state that deadshot means vindicare gets to allocate the wounds. You already posted that allocation of wounds is before saves. Shield breaker says the invun save is lost before any saves can be made.

End of debate. The rules are clear and you even admiotted allocation of wounds is before saves hence why a squad of terminators cannot take their invun save from shield breaker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
Without mixed saves, you take saving throws before wounds are allocated. So if you had a squad of terminators with a sarge, the order is:
1. Roll to hit.
2. Roll to wound.
3. Allocate wound.
4. Take applicable save.

.

Very nice, you can bold, underline, and change the size for an example that does not apply.

I recommend you read the part right before I posted the sequence. Focus on "squad of terminators with a sarge".

 Happyjew wrote:
Very nice, you can bold, underline, and change the size for an example that does not apply.

I recommend you read the part right before I posted the sequence. Focus on "squad of terminators with a sarge".

You're wrong. End of debate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

champagne_socialist wrote:


End of debate. The rules are clear and you even admiotted allocation of wounds is before saves hence why a squad of terminators cannot take their invun save from shield breaker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
Without mixed saves, you take saving throws before wounds are allocated. So if you had a squad of terminators with a sarge, the order is:
1. Roll to hit.
2. Roll to wound.
3. Allocate wound.
4. Take applicable save.

.

No, he is right. Pg 15.

Allocate wounds and remove casualties.

[For now, we're going to assume that all the models in the target unit have the same saving throw. If this is not the case, the method is slightly different, but we'll come to that later (see Mixed Saves below).]

1. Take Saving Throws.
2. Allocate Unsaved Wounds&Remove Casualties
3. Random Allocation
4. Emptied Wound Pool

..is the procedure for same save models without a Character or IC.