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So was reading the Apco/Escalation book and had a few questions on D weapons before an upcomming tourney where I'm using them for the first time

1.) Firstly when you hit multiple models in a unit with a D weapon, do you roll on the D table once, or once for each model hit?

2.) (Assuming answer to #1 is roll for each model hit) When you hit a unit of multiple models but dont hit the entire unit, do the wounds done carry over to the rest of the unit? (ex. Hit 5 out or 10 with a D blast, roll 2s on the D table for 5 models 10 wounds total)

3.) (Assuming answer to #1 is one roll on the D table only for the unit) If you wound more than the number of models hit, do the wounds carry over into the rest of the unit?

Thanks

1. Each.
2. No.
3. N/A

So even if I generate 10 wounds on 5 guys hit, only the 5 guys out of the 10 man unit die?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
So even if I generate 10 wounds on 5 guys hit, only the 5 guys out of the 10 man unit die?

Correct.
1st model under the blast, roll a d6 and resolve it.
Repeat for all 5 guys.

Thanks!

Actually, nowhere in the D weapon rules does it say to use a different form of wound allocation than normal. There's a pretty good thread on BOLS about it, and I was convinced that rather than rolling results for the models actually hit by the template, you roll a number of D-table results = to the # of models hit, and allocate the results, much like wound pools, but pools of the various results.

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?41476-Strength-D-blast-wound-allocation

The D rules are so poorly written that there is really no way to actually coincide 100% RAW with normal shooting wound allocation, but that is the most fair way to do it.

1 D hit should not be able to kill more than 1 model, just like an Instant Death wound from a template can't kill more than 1 Swarms model. So totalling the # of wounds from all the D table results and then allocating those wouldn't be correct with that precedent, nor would it be fair at all. And allocating hits doesn't jive well either.

So allocating the D-table results is most fair, starting with the model closest the firer as normal....unless it's Vortex, in which case it's Barrage.

Actually, it does seem more balanced to roll on the D-table per model hit rather than generating an "ignores all saves" wound pool. If you play as per model hit, you might only lose 5 of the 10 models in the OP's example, rather than potentially the entire unit in the "wound-pool" response. As removing models without the possibility of exchange is frustrating for the person losing the models, the "per model" interpretation makes more sense from a game balance point of view. And since the actual rules are for "per model" rather than "wound pool", dealing Str D damage per model hit appears to be more correct than spreading out excess wounds to overkill the unit.

Also, if we use the "per model" rules as written for D Weapons, Str D melee weapons work without issue, wounding only those models hit by the attack rolls, rather than obliterating entire units via an overflowing wound pool. Yes, this does make D weapons less game unbalancing, which as far as I'm concerned is a good thing.

SJ

The rules really are messy when it comes to allocating.... things... from the Destroyer weapons. Reading over the Strong-Hold Assault rules I could even possibly cobble together an argument that Destroyer weapons cause no wounds at all. Having no sleep though, not sure I want to try and make that one even as a thought excise, but it is a two pronged curiosity: The unusual Timing required to allocate anything under the D weapon rules and the fact the result table does not generate a Wound pool and we can't even agree on what it does generate, let alone prove it has permission to allocate like wounds. All because the result table jumped right in and assumed something had been allocated to each individual model as the results clearly state a model, not unit, loses these Wounds.

I'm in favor of allocating the individual hits:
It has the most rule support thanks to the use of the word model
It is the most simplest solution as allocation is standard, aside from being a hit
There is possibly president, I doubt this is the first time Game Workshop wrote alternative To-Wounding method that did similar things
It would, if one becomes written in the near future that gets around the restriction, allow other Special Rules to function without even more questions

And other benefits, including this one:
Maybe I would lift my general 'don't play against them' restriction if people agreed to make them less... win on Turn 3 buttons.
I'm not the only player that doesn't like these things to the point they simply won't enter into friendly games with them, this might change their mind while still making those things a terror on the field.
It would be enough for me, I would still find these things down right terrifying but no longer 'why bother' levels of terror.

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
Actually, nowhere in the D weapon rules does it say to use a different form of wound allocation than normal.

Doesn't the line "If the attack hits, roll on the table to the right instead of rolling To Wound or for armour penetration." pretty much cover that?
You don't generate wounds via the To Wound process so there isn't an allocation procedure to follow but you do it on a model by model basis?

The only real sticking point is how you resolve non-barrage blast D-weapons, but are there any of those in the game ?

There are Melee D weapons.

D weapons specifically say you bypass rolling to wound [normal wound allocation]

And the text of the D weapon effects states the Model suffers the wound loss, so it does not generate wounds that then go to models, but it generates D hits that then are applied to models and affect that specific model with a loss of wounds.

So the RAW is clear, there is no wound pool.

if it didn't not say "the model suffers" then it would be not clear.

Yea just wanted to make sure, another discussion I read was stating that even if you hit 1 model, if you generate up to 12 wounds with a D table roll on the infantry table since I've been using that for my example, 12 wounds go into the pool for the unit even though one model was hit

Just wanted to clear that up for myself: consensus is 5 models hit, 5 rolls on the D table, regardless of wounds those 5 are the only ones that take them

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Yea just wanted to make sure, another discussion I read was stating that even if you hit 1 model, if you generate up to 12 wounds with a D table roll on the infantry table since I've been using that for my example, 12 wounds go into the pool for the unit even though one model was hit

Just wanted to clear that up for myself: consensus is 5 models hit, 5 rolls on the D table, regardless of wounds those 5 are the only ones that take them

That has been my reading on it since 6th Ed Apoc released. Didn't realize others thought differently.

SJ

Not only are those 5 models the ones that take them, but if you roll any 1's, some of those dont even die.


D weapons do not use the Str vs T chart for wounding.

If they get hit, they use the D table chart.

Its on a per model basis, so if the weapon is barrage, roll em all at once and start allocating the results from the center. If its not barrage, roll them and start allocating from the closest to the shooter of the models hit by the D blast.

No rules broken, and it works fine.

D Weapons don't work RaW. Essentially you hit units never models with shooting attacks, the only part if the only part of tge shooting process tied to models is wound allocation. Yet the results from the D weapon chart talk about effects on a model hit but it kicks in during the to wound roll which is against units.

The most sensible way to play D weapons is that they auto wound and ignore all saves. But instead of making a save roll on the chart for each wound as it is allocated. I think this is the intended way for them to function, though perhaps D Sniping is the intention with models under the template being directly and individually effected.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eihnlazer wrote:
Not only are those 5 models the ones that take them, but if you roll any 1's, some of those dont even die.


D weapons do not use the Str vs T chart for wounding.

If they get hit, they use the D table chart.

Its on a per model basis, so if the weapon is barrage, roll em all at once and start allocating the results from the center. If its not barrage, roll them and start allocating from the closest to the shooter of the models hit by the D blast.

No rules broken, and it works fine.

If you're allocating the D weapon results how are you doing that with out using wound allocation? If you are rolling for each model hit why are you rolling any dice as no models are ever hit by blast markers or indeed any normal shooting attack. Units are...

There's no hit allocation. It's just not there. If you throw out wound allocation, there's no allocation left. Now, we'll all be reasonable and assume that we'll use the standard order specified in wound allocation - but let's be clear that's not in the RaW.

Yea you roll to hit, then you roll for how many wounds since its automatically a wound with the exception of a roll of 1.

What my question was that the wounds generated only go to the models hit as you roll for each model hit to generate wounds, or a wound pool for the whole unit

And are the D hits allocated to the closest model unless barrage ?

They should be, for a normal blast/template I believe

Hits are never allocated to models only wounds are and by the wound pool.

D weapons don't work RaW. You roll to hit. Then the table requires you to apply its results to models yet we have no way of doing that. We have no way of deciding what models are effected. So we either apply the result to the unit and then use wound allocation to send them out to models. Though this results in me potentially killing 12 models with 1 hit. Or we need to create our own way of working D Weapons. Hence why I suggested a new method were you use the D table instead of saving throws and assume D Weapons auto wound with every hit.

Using hit allocation, while not somthing you do with anything else in the game, is fine with D weapons. It works quite well since you are using templates with all D weapons except for melee.


In melee, you simply assign them to models in B2B and your opponent would select which ones take the wounds first.

You mean creating hit allocation not using it. Hit allocation is not something that exists in the rules. So if you want to create that House rule it is fine but please don't post that as if it is in the rules. It is something you have entirely made up (just like my advised way of house ruling it which actually generates the exact results just by shifting the broken D Weapon rule to somewhere where it works as opposed to creating an entirely new process but in effect they are identical.)

The whole problem with calling it a house rule is that you have to use a house rule for it to work at all.


My "house rule" works consistently with the way its written to be done in the book.

There are other weapons in the game that allocate hits, and force specific models being hit to be the ones taking x effect.

Like what blaktoof?

Hit allocation is not part of the normal shooting rules nor the D Weapon rules.

Eihnlazer I'm not saying your house rule is a bad way to play and my house rule functions in a literally identical way I've just shifted the D table to wound allocation you've shifted wound allocation to the D table. But it is a house rule. RaW D Weapons don't work and there is no clear RaI so we have to create a house rule to make them work.

off the top of my head, Dark Eldar shattershard, and implosion missiles.

There's also precision shots, and many psychic powers that target a specific model in a unit from the hit, and it doesn't generate a wound pool.

RAW D weapons do work, there is nothing requiring them to generate a wound pool, as their rules specifically tell you what to do.

a D weapon has no strength, it cause a D hit.

It states you roll to hit as normal. If it hits roll on the table instead of rolling to hit or rolling to penetrate. [The only way to generate wounds for a wound pool in the BRB is shown to be from rolling to wound]

The results you can have from rolling specify RAW that the effect is applied to the model.

Therefore:
1 you are not allowed to generate a wound pool as detailed in the BRB, there is no to wound roll.

2 You must apply the Destroyer effect to the model hit.

That means if you apply the wounds to any other model, even if the model has already been reduced to 0 wounds you are breaking the RAW for the Destroyer weapon. As the wounds are specifically applied to the model hit, and not the unit hit. As there is no wound pool, you do not have to worry about emptying a wound pool.

Edit- The current rulebook does not tell us how to resolve a D weapon hit past the to hit stage, because D weapons simply are not covered in the BRB, however the rules for resolving them beyond to to hit step are contained within the books that list D weapons, ie Escalation, and Stronghold assault.

But no model is ever hit by a destroyer weapon. Read what blast weapons do they hit units by counting models. So the blast lands on 5 models the unit takes 5 hits. What models are you applying those hits to and what rules are you using to do that?

To clarify - precision hits do still follow the wound pool, as all that happens is that the wound from a precision hit, if any, has greater lassitude in being allocated than a normal wounding hit would have

 FlingitNow wrote:
But no model is ever hit by a destroyer weapon. Read what blast weapons do they hit units by counting models. So the blast lands on 5 models the unit takes 5 hits. What models are you applying those hits to and what rules are you using to do that?

according to the rules for destroyer weapons models are hit, not units. The effect you roll on the chart is for the model, not the unit.

IF the effect you rolled on the chart was applied to a unit hit, then only model in the unit would suffer the hit as RAW the chart says 'the model" which is singular.

so now if you try and apply a unit being hit and not models, you may only affect 1 model in that unit from a blast D weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
To clarify - precision hits do still follow the wound pool, as all that happens is that the wound from a precision hit, if any, has greater lassitude in being allocated than a normal wounding hit would have

That is true, but it is also true that as the D weapon has no strength value it does not generate wounds for a wound pool as per the rules for shooting or assault in the BRB.

Rather it applies an affect to models hit, similar to other things that apply affects to models hit like a dark eldar shattershard. Those specific effects cannot be allocated but are resolved on a per model hit basis.

according to the rules for destroyer weapons models are hit, not units. The effect you roll on the chart is for the model, not the unit. 

IF the effect you rolled on the chart was applied to a unit hit, then only model in the unit would suffer the hit as RAW the chart says 'the model" which is singular. 

so now if you try and apply a unit being hit and not models, you may only affect 1 model in that unit from a blast D weapon.

Sorry but you seem confused. A blast weapon with Strengty D hits a tactical squad covering the back 5 guys. By the blast weapon rules that is 5 hits on the unit. What do you think you do from here?

 FlingitNow wrote:

according to the rules for destroyer weapons models are hit, not units. The effect you roll on the chart is for the model, not the unit. 

IF the effect you rolled on the chart was applied to a unit hit, then only model in the unit would suffer the hit as RAW the chart says 'the model" which is singular. 

so now if you try and apply a unit being hit and not models, you may only affect 1 model in that unit from a blast D weapon.

Sorry but you seem confused. A blast weapon with Strengty D hits a tactical squad covering the back 5 guys. By the blast weapon rules that is 5 hits on the unit. What do you think you do from here?

Roll a d6 for each model hit, and apply the results from the D Weapon damage table to each model that received a hit.

SJ