Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello dakka,

My fiance has shown some interest in 40k! (finally, hehe)

She asked to paint a model one day so i bought her Lelith and she really likes her first model. We were looking at the DE range together and I think she is interested in a small, small army with a focus on witches.

Ideally the army should center around Lelith/Succubi, Wyches, Raider chassis, and Scourges. Those are her favorite models. Other units are ok to add to make more competitive though.

So, since I only know what I've read on the internet and do not yet have a codex, could you help point me in the right direction to get a core DE army going?

Thanks in advance.

Thedarkcity.net

I find 5 Wyches in a Venom with Haywire Grenades are great little units, the Wyches can deal with vehicles with ease and the Venom is great for killing infantry.
If you are planning on running lots of Wyches, Duke Sliscus the SC is well worth a look, he can help with Wyches a lot.

The main issue with running pure Wyches is survivability. When their transports explode (which they will!) you will lose some to the blast and the rest will be killed pretty easily.

For a rough starting point I'd look at something like this:

HQ:

Duke Sliscus
150

Troops:

5 Wyches in Venom with Haywire Grenades, SC
125

5 Wyches in Venom with Haywire Grenades, SC
125

10 Wyches in Raider, Hekatrix, Agoniser, 1 x Razorflail
180

9 Kabalite Warriors in Raider with Splinter Racks, Blaster (Duke rides with these)
166

Fast Attack:

5 Scourges with 2 Heat Lances
134

Heavy Support:

Ravager with Night Shields
115

This comes in at 995pts. I've tried to incorporate everything into the list you mentioned your GF would want. Lelith is a bit too pricey for 1,000pts and I think the Duke is great. You could always free up some points by dropping the Duke
and getting a Succubus with Venom Blade but your Wyches would lose a fair bit of potency.

Hope this helps a little.

 wildboar wrote:
I find 5 Wyches in a Venom with Haywire Grenades are great little units, the Wyches can deal with vehicles with ease and the Venom is great for killing infantry.
If you are planning on running lots of Wyches, Duke Sliscus the SC is well worth a look, he can help with Wyches a lot.

The main issue with running pure Wyches is survivability. When their transports explode (which they will!) you will lose some to the blast and the rest will be killed pretty easily.

For a rough starting point I'd look at something like this:

HQ:

Duke Sliscus
150

Troops:

5 Wyches in Venom with Haywire Grenades, SC
125

5 Wyches in Venom with Haywire Grenades, SC
125

10 Wyches in Raider, Hekatrix, Agoniser, 1 x Razorflail
180

9 Kabalite Warriors in Raider with Splinter Racks, Blaster (Duke rides with these)
166

Fast Attack:

5 Scourges with 2 Heat Lances
134

Heavy Support:

Ravager with Night Shields
115

This comes in at 995pts. I've tried to incorporate everything into the list you mentioned your GF would want. Lelith is a bit too pricey for 1,000pts and I think the Duke is great. You could always free up some points by dropping the Duke
and getting a Succubus with Venom Blade but your Wyches would lose a fair bit of potency.

Hope this helps a little.

The problem here is, with the duke I'm assuming you're deep striking the venoms and wych raider. You're going to have almost nothing on the table turn 1 and the ships are fragile to boot. It wouldn't be difficult for an army to pwn this.

I'd save the Deepstriking for bigger points games. Can't really afford to lose the guns on the board from the start. The list I posted has tried to cover all the requests of the OP. There are certainly stronger builds out there but that's not what he asked for.

Yeah thanks so far everyone. Are Raiders with 10x Wyches that bad?

Don't get me wrong, I am well aware of the realities of 6th ed...

... but would a core of 2x10x Wyches in Raiders, 1x10x Warriors in a Raider, Scourge and Ravager support be so horrible?

 Deuce11 wrote:
Yeah thanks so far everyone. Are raiders with 10x Wyches that bad?

Don't get me wrong, I am well aware of the realities of 6th ed...

... but would a core of 2x10x Wyches in Raders, 1x10x Warriors in a Rader, Scourge and Ravager support be so horrible?

The only place wyches really have in 6th is a 5 man squad with haywire used for suicide. Unfortunately... And that's marginal at best...

Do DE players ever reserve a boat of wyches to come in for clean-up duty?

 Deuce11 wrote:
Do DE players ever reserve a boat of wyches to come in for clean-up duty?

No that's what splinter cannons do...

I just read a discussion about Wyches in Venoms vs Raiders here: http://www.thedarkcity.net/t8758-haywire-wyches-in-raiders-instead-of-venoms

I am thankful that the DE Dakkaites are patient with my questions since I am not (yet) a DE player and have never played against them.

Now it seems to me that although Wyches with haywire are good at delivering anti-AV, it is not really a good idea because too many penetrating hits and you could be blowing yourself up.

Now big Wych squads are good if you try to assault since there are a lot of difficulties faced in reaching CC. So what if the anti-Tank duties were handled by Ravagers and Scourges while the anti-Troop was handled by Wyches and Warriors in Raiders.

The tools seem like they are there to me... what am I missing? Keep in mind we are looking at 1000-1250 points.

 Deuce11 wrote:
I just read a discussion about Wyches in Venoms vs Raiders here: http://www.thedarkcity.net/t8758-haywire-wyches-in-raiders-instead-of-venoms

I am thankful that the DE Dakkaites are patient with my questions since I am not (yet) a DE player and have never played against them.

Now it seems to me that although Wyches with haywire are good at delivering anti-AV, it is not really a good idea because too many penetrating hits and you could be blowing yourself up.

Now big Wych squads are good if you try to assault since there are a lot of difficulties faced in reaching CC. So what if the anti-Tank duties were handled by Ravagers and Scourges while the anti-Troop was handled by Wyches and Warriors in Raiders.

The tools seem like they are there to me... what am I missing? Keep in mind we are looking at 1000-1250 points.

The problem with large squads of wyches is they really don't kill anything in CC. When the raider explodes (which it will) you'll lose half or more of the squad, and they're only str 3 and T3 with basically no AP value. If you're looking for a good CC unit, look into Incubi (which suffer from being too killy, yea that's a thing) and Grotesques. That's my advice. Wyches are really only good at being a suicide unit unfortunately...

Actually Bloodbrides are not too bad, I find a squad of 3 of them with a Hekatrix and a Haemo works rather well. You got 2 Agonisers in that Squad, plus a Liqifier Gun and if you roll well for Combat Drugs you can get +1 Strength or a bonus pain token, because the Haemo is there you assuming you get +1 Strength they are pretty decent. If you get a bonus pain token you end up with FNP & Furious Charge which isn't too bad either. Hell even +1 Attack from Drugs isnt bad as each of the Bloodbrides end up with 5 attacks on the charge, the Hekatrix ends up with 6 as well. Combat drugs are made for Bloodbrides rather than normal Wyches.

They are a bit more expensive than Witches but they are way better, higher LD and an Extra Attack in CC.

Ive actually managed to tarpit an O'Ovesa star with Bloodbrides before.

Standard Wiches in Troop are crud. Pay the extra points for Bloodbrides.

With regards to Sliscus and Lelith. Sliscus doesnt really help a Wych army, he boosts poison shooting, although Wyches have pistols he isnt really designed for that.

If you take Sliscus I would suggest you foot slot a 20 man units of Kabalite Warriors, its the only way to truly repay his points cost. If you do that though you will need a Haemo in there as Kabaite Warriors are rather squishy.


There are several ways to run a Dark Eldar list, none of them are the right or wrong way but you might have issues using Wyches as the main bulk of the army. The only way I have ever got that to work is using 3x Bloodbrides Squads as above with a Haemo in each. They can be pretty nasty.

Bloodbrides on the other hand make very good entourages for a Succubus. 6 Bloodbrides with 2 WW of choice and Hek with power spear/Agoniser make a great to run with a Succubus, they are cheap and killy and complement the Succubus or Archon well.

You need to work in a couple Ravagers with Flicker Fields and Night Shields. They're only 125 points each and carry 3 Dark Lances/Disintegrators each.
Other than that, I can't offer much help, as you're looking for a close combat army and I've never found a decent CC Dark Eldar army in the current rules set.

I could give you a damn nice Kabalite centered build, though.

Eric

Wrack centered CC army works very well, you just have to be prepared for losses on the basis you dont shoot turn 1 and turn boost your entire CC force to one side of the board and start picking them apart from there.

A beastpack with 25 Khymerae works a treat too in a list like that to adsorb shots.

Wracks are a much better choice of Troop choice in any list anyway due to T4, FNP off the bat, 2 Base Attacks and Liquifier Guns which own anything on a Jetbike.

I have actually switched away from using Ravagers pretty much at all now as they always die turn 1 because they are a target priority. I now run them with Dissies and use Blasterborn, Scourges and Reavers as my main Lance Weapon spammers due to the ablative wounds.


One thing Wyches are good for is Haywire Grenades, besides that leave them at home and take Bloodbrides.

If your Ravagers are dying early... I don't know what you're doing wrong. Maybe not providing enough threats? Maybe not deploying them in hiding well enough?

I almost never lose a Ravager before turn 2, and regularly have at least one make it to turn 5.
Are you buying FFs and & NShields? Both are imperative to a viable DE army (esp. a shooting army).

Lelith

2x5x Scourges outfitted for tank hunting

2x10x Wyches in Raiders with Upgrade characters and agonizers

2x10x Warriors in Raiders with 2x(anti-infantry heavy weapon)

2x Ravagers w/ defensive upgrades

We near 1250??? Is it on its way?

Also, venoms are cult themed and better than raiders.

 Deuce11 wrote:
Lelith

2x5x Scourges outfitted for tank hunting

2x10x Wyches in Raiders with Upgrade characters and agonizers

2x10x Warriors in Raiders with 2x(anti-infantry heavy weapon)

2x Ravagers w/ defensive upgrades

We near 1250??? Is it on its way?

The problem with kitting your Wyches and Scourges out for tank hunting is that they'll never make it there.
Turn 1, you zoom part way across the table. On your opponent's next turn, every one of your vehicles (no better than wet paper bags, really) is destroyed by bolter fire (or equivalent) and the juicy bits inside are annihilated, as well.
The only chance you have, and it really IS a tiny little chance, is to put flicker fields and Night Shields on EVERY vehicle. You need that -6" range and 5+ Invulnerable save.
Is there no chance of you talking her into a shooty DE list using all female torsos? LOL She will have a far more competetive list, then.

In case you can, here's a pretty solid 1000(ish) point list:
Note: ALL VEHICLES HAVE FLICKER FIELDS AND NIGHT SHIELDS
Ravager with 3x Disintegrator Cannons (Change to Dark Lances if you want more High S shots)
Ravager with 3x Dark Lances
Haemonculus (naked) Rides with:
3x Kabalite Trueborn (Shardcarbine, 2x Splinter Cannon)
-Venom (extra Splinter Cannon)
(3 of these):
10x Warriors with Splintercannon
-Raider with Splinter Racks
Total Points come to 1006. You can drop the Shardcarbine on the Trueborn to make it 1001 points.
For a 1250 list, I'd:
Add 1 Ravager (2 with DLances, 1 with DCannon)
give the haemonculus a Hexrifle
Bump the Trueborn up to 4 & give them 2x Blasters & 2x Splinter Cannons
Upgrade each Warrior unit to have a Sybarite (for the Ld bump) & Dark Lance

Alternatively (1251 points)
2x Ravagers (as above)
naked Haemonculus
Trueborn (3) with Blaster & 2x Splinter Cannons... and the venom
3x Kabalite Warrior units (10) in Raiders, as above, with Dark Lances (No Sybarite)
1x Kabalite Warrior unit (10) in Raider with Splinter Cannon

I know it's not what you're asking for, but I've had GREAT success with versions of each of these lists.

Happy gaming!

Eric

 MagickalMemories wrote:
If your Ravagers are dying early... I don't know what you're doing wrong. Maybe not providing enough threats? Maybe not deploying them in hiding well enough?

I almost never lose a Ravager before turn 2, and regularly have at least one make it to turn 5.
Are you buying FFs and & NShields? Both are imperative to a viable DE army (esp. a shooting army).

Yes both upgrades.

The group I play with all uses tournament lists, even with ns and ff a ravager is pathetic and dies easily.

 MagickalMemories wrote:

 Deuce11 wrote:
Lelith

2x5x Scourges outfitted for tank hunting

2x10x Wyches in Raiders with Upgrade characters and agonizers

2x10x Warriors in Raiders with 2x(anti-infantry heavy weapon)

2x Ravagers w/ defensive upgrades

We near 1250??? Is it on its way?

The problem with kitting your Wyches and Scourges out for tank hunting is that they'll never make it there.
Turn 1, you zoom part way across the table. On your opponent's next turn, every one of your vehicles (no better than wet paper bags, really) is destroyed by bolter fire (or equivalent) and the juicy bits inside are annihilated, as well.
The only chance you have, and it really IS a tiny little chance, is to put flicker fields and Night Shields on EVERY vehicle. You need that -6" range and 5+ Invulnerable save.
Is there no chance of you talking her into a shooty DE list using all female torsos? LOL She will have a far more competetive list, then.

In case you can, here's a pretty solid 1000(ish) point list:
Note: ALL VEHICLES HAVE FLICKER FIELDS AND NIGHT SHIELDS
Ravager with 3x Disintegrator Cannons (Change to Dark Lances if you want more High S shots)
Ravager with 3x Dark Lances
Haemonculus (naked) Rides with:
3x Kabalite Trueborn (Shardcarbine, 2x Splinter Cannon)
-Venom (extra Splinter Cannon)
(3 of these):
10x Warriors with Splintercannon
-Raider with Splinter Racks
Total Points come to 1006. You can drop the Shardcarbine on the Trueborn to make it 1001 points.
For a 1250 list, I'd:
Add 1 Ravager (2 with DLances, 1 with DCannon)
give the haemonculus a Hexrifle
Bump the Trueborn up to 4 & give them 2x Blasters & 2x Splinter Cannons
Upgrade each Warrior unit to have a Sybarite (for the Ld bump) & Dark Lance

Alternatively (1251 points)
2x Ravagers (as above)
naked Haemonculus
Trueborn (3) with Blaster & 2x Splinter Cannons... and the venom
3x Kabalite Warrior units (10) in Raiders, as above, with Dark Lances (No Sybarite)
1x Kabalite Warrior unit (10) in Raider with Splinter Cannon

I know it's not what you're asking for, but I've had GREAT success with versions of each of these lists.

Happy gaming!

Eric

Ummmm don't scourges have deep strike?

Don't dark lances have a 36"-48" range including the platform?

Tell me again why you assume I would get all of my paper planes in short-range danger zone if they don't need to be?

The Wyches are not being outfitted for anti-tank. I have never said that was the plan and I have gone out of my way to try and explain why they are specifically outfitted for CC. So they would be hugging cover until the targets present themselves. Further, the warrior squads are outfitted with splinter cannons to thin the herd before the Wyches launch their attack. This is my strategy.

Please correct any false assumptions I have made. Thanks all.

 Deuce11 wrote:

 MagickalMemories wrote:

 Deuce11 wrote:
Lelith

2x5x Scourges outfitted for tank hunting

2x10x Wyches in Raiders with Upgrade characters and agonizers

2x10x Warriors in Raiders with 2x(anti-infantry heavy weapon)

2x Ravagers w/ defensive upgrades

We near 1250??? Is it on its way?

The problem with kitting your Wyches and Scourges out for tank hunting is that they'll never make it there.
Turn 1, you zoom part way across the table. On your opponent's next turn, every one of your vehicles (no better than wet paper bags, really) is destroyed by bolter fire (or equivalent) and the juicy bits inside are annihilated, as well.
The only chance you have, and it really IS a tiny little chance, is to put flicker fields and Night Shields on EVERY vehicle. You need that -6" range and 5+ Invulnerable save.
Is there no chance of you talking her into a shooty DE list using all female torsos? LOL She will have a far more competetive list, then.

In case you can, here's a pretty solid 1000(ish) point list:
Note: ALL VEHICLES HAVE FLICKER FIELDS AND NIGHT SHIELDS
Ravager with 3x Disintegrator Cannons (Change to Dark Lances if you want more High S shots)
Ravager with 3x Dark Lances
Haemonculus (naked) Rides with:
3x Kabalite Trueborn (Shardcarbine, 2x Splinter Cannon)
-Venom (extra Splinter Cannon)
(3 of these):
10x Warriors with Splintercannon
-Raider with Splinter Racks
Total Points come to 1006. You can drop the Shardcarbine on the Trueborn to make it 1001 points.
For a 1250 list, I'd:
Add 1 Ravager (2 with DLances, 1 with DCannon)
give the haemonculus a Hexrifle
Bump the Trueborn up to 4 & give them 2x Blasters & 2x Splinter Cannons
Upgrade each Warrior unit to have a Sybarite (for the Ld bump) & Dark Lance

Alternatively (1251 points)
2x Ravagers (as above)
naked Haemonculus
Trueborn (3) with Blaster & 2x Splinter Cannons... and the venom
3x Kabalite Warrior units (10) in Raiders, as above, with Dark Lances (No Sybarite)
1x Kabalite Warrior unit (10) in Raider with Splinter Cannon

I know it's not what you're asking for, but I've had GREAT success with versions of each of these lists.

Happy gaming!

Eric

Ummmm don't scourges have deep strike?

Don't dark lances have a 36"-48" range including the platform?

Tell me again why you assume I would get all of my paper planes in short-range danger zone if they don't need to be?

The Wyches are not being outfitted for anti-tank. I have never said that was the plan and I have gone out of my way to try and explain why they are specifically outfitted for CC. So they would be hugging cover until the targets present themselves. Further, the warrior squads are outfitted with splinter cannons to thin the herd before the Wyches launch their attack. This is my strategy.

Please correct any false assumptions I have made. Thanks all.

As stated before wyches don't really kill anything in combat and are very fragile. If you're looking for CC Incubi and Grotesques are the way to go.

Thanks, i'll begin play-testing when I can and will let you know. Many thanks, all.

 Deuce11 wrote:


Ummmm don't scourges have deep strike?

Don't dark lances have a 36"-48" range including the platform?

Tell me again why you assume I would get all of my paper planes in short-range danger zone if they don't need to be?

The Wyches are not being outfitted for anti-tank. I have never said that was the plan and I have gone out of my way to try and explain why they are specifically outfitted for CC. So they would be hugging cover until the targets present themselves. Further, the warrior squads are outfitted with splinter cannons to thin the herd before the Wyches launch their attack. This is my strategy.

Please correct any false assumptions I have made. Thanks all.

Might just be the "can't read TONE on the internet" thing, but you're coming across to me as if you're offended.
If that's the case, I apologize. I was just giving opinions, not attacking your p.o.v.
That said...
I didn't say you were outfitting Wyches for anti-tank. I said that outfitting Wyches and Scourges as anti tank was a mistake. Many people outfit Wyches in an attempt to use them to take out tanks. It's a mistake. I was just addressing that at the same time.
Almost everything in the DE army that gets close enough to hunt tanks (say, 12" dies miserably. That's all there is to it. That which doesn't die miserably just dies regularly. LOL
Wyches in HtH die miserably, as well. Even with a HtH Invulnerable save... you can only make so many of those [5+ saves?] (presuming you don't get shot to death by AP5 bolters on the charge). IMO, a lone splinter cannon in a Wych unit will be lucky to account for 1 MEQ. That's not really a very thinned herd.

Yes. Dark Lances have a 36" range, while the Ravager can still move 12" and fire all, giving it a 48" threat range. Meanwhile... What do you consider a "short-range danger zone?" Typically (where I game), that's 24". So, with your Night Shields, your opponent needs 30" range guns to get in that zone. You should be actively moving to avoid that. You should always be >30" away from your enemy whenever firing. Anything of your opponents that moves closer should be prioritized and brought down, even if it means bringing up a Kabalite unit as a sacrificial lamb to use their Twin Linked (splinter racks) splinter weapons on it. If you're moving less than 30" away from your opponent, you're allowing Space Marines to move forward and take out your Raider with massed bolter fire. Cover isn't that important. At best, you can hope for 4+ behind Ruins. Most of the time, you should be expecting a 5+ cover save which, really, is no better than your Flickerfield. In that case, you might as well be driving brazenly, right down the middle of the field.

Granted, the Ravager armor is relatively weak at AV11, but you're already charging head-first with Wyches in even worse AV10 Raiders. So, you should be used to your wet paper bags getting shot up. In all honesty, I'd have expected you to be a fan of Ravagers, with your play style. If you're charging your Wyches up field, looking for a target, you're providing a bunch of targets of your own. Adding a few Ravagers in the backfield to the mix makes it even harder for your opponent to prioritize. Plus, if you take 3 DLances on each, you've got better shots at popping open his tin cans, so your Wyches can get to the juicy bits inside.

Clearly, we have differing opinions on the DE army. Even though that makes you unrepentantly heretical, I'm okay with that. ; )

I'm wondering if you've ever used Ravagers in your army. That's not meant as a challenge, mind you. Just a curiosity. If not, I'm thinking you should try to put 3 in your next Wych army, keep them 31=" away from the enemy when possible, and see how well they support your play style. Who knows? You could be surprised.
If you don't have them, and your local group is as cool as mine, I doubt it would be a big deal to proxy Raiders for test purposes, if you have the extras.

Eric

 MagickalMemories wrote:

 Deuce11 wrote:


Ummmm don't scourges have deep strike?

Don't dark lances have a 36"-48" range including the platform?

Tell me again why you assume I would get all of my paper planes in short-range danger zone if they don't need to be?

The Wyches are not being outfitted for anti-tank. I have never said that was the plan and I have gone out of my way to try and explain why they are specifically outfitted for CC. So they would be hugging cover until the targets present themselves. Further, the warrior squads are outfitted with splinter cannons to thin the herd before the Wyches launch their attack. This is my strategy.

Please correct any false assumptions I have made. Thanks all.

Might just be the "can't read TONE on the internet" thing, but you're coming across to me as if you're offended.
If that's the case, I apologize. I was just giving opinions, not attacking your p.o.v.
That said...
I didn't say you were outfitting Wyches for anti-tank. I said that outfitting Wyches and Scourges as anti tank was a mistake. Many people outfit Wyches in an attempt to use them to take out tanks. It's a mistake. I was just addressing that at the same time.
Almost everything in the DE army that gets close enough to hunt tanks (say, 12" dies miserably. That's all there is to it. That which doesn't die miserably just dies regularly. LOL
Wyches in HtH die miserably, as well. Even with a HtH Invulnerable save... you can only make so many of those [5+ saves?] (presuming you don't get shot to death by AP5 bolters on the charge). IMO, a lone splinter cannon in a Wych unit will be lucky to account for 1 MEQ. That's not really a very thinned herd.

Yes. Dark Lances have a 36" range, while the Ravager can still move 12" and fire all, giving it a 48" threat range. Meanwhile... What do you consider a "short-range danger zone?" Typically (where I game), that's 24". So, with your Night Shields, your opponent needs 30" range guns to get in that zone. You should be actively moving to avoid that. You should always be >30" away from your enemy whenever firing. Anything of your opponents that moves closer should be prioritized and brought down, even if it means bringing up a Kabalite unit as a sacrificial lamb to use their Twin Linked (splinter racks) splinter weapons on it. If you're moving less than 30" away from your opponent, you're allowing Space Marines to move forward and take out your Raider with massed bolter fire. Cover isn't that important. At best, you can hope for 4+ behind Ruins. Most of the time, you should be expecting a 5+ cover save which, really, is no better than your Flickerfield. In that case, you might as well be driving brazenly, right down the middle of the field.

Granted, the Ravager armor is relatively weak at AV11, but you're already charging head-first with Wyches in even worse AV10 Raiders. So, you should be used to your wet paper bags getting shot up. In all honesty, I'd have expected you to be a fan of Ravagers, with your play style. If you're charging your Wyches up field, looking for a target, you're providing a bunch of targets of your own. Adding a few Ravagers in the backfield to the mix makes it even harder for your opponent to prioritize. Plus, if you take 3 DLances on each, you've got better shots at popping open his tin cans, so your Wyches can get to the juicy bits inside.

Clearly, we have differing opinions on the DE army. Even though that makes you unrepentantly heretical, I'm okay with that. ; )

I'm wondering if you've ever used Ravagers in your army. That's not meant as a challenge, mind you. Just a curiosity. If not, I'm thinking you should try to put 3 in your next Wych army, keep them 31=" away from the enemy when possible, and see how well they support your play style. Who knows? You could be surprised.
If you don't have them, and your local group is as cool as mine, I doubt it would be a big deal to proxy Raiders for test purposes, if you have the extras.

Eric

Nice explanation. No i am not offended, I'm just a dry, sarcastic A$$. Happy we are on the same page haha

When people say Wyches are bad at CC, are they saying this because nearly everything is bad at CC in 6th or because even in this difficult phase for CC specialists, Wyches are worse than standard? They have high I, high A, low S, low T, and a poor save. So if they are pointed more than 10 points per model then they are a waste (I have no idea what points they are) because you would need the numbers to take casualties and still have a high enough number of attacks to make the odds work in your favor. Am i right?

Glad I didn't offend.

Off hand, I don't know their points cost. It's 9 or 10, though.
Where they excel is that they get an invul. save in HtH, and they have a high Init. Unfortunately, that low Strength means they need 4+ to wound measly IG and Tau. Their low T (also 3) means that they take wounds like crazy, and don't get FNP for many weapons that most/many units would.
The only decent Wych is Lelith. She can be a beast, but still has her own issues.

People are saying Wyches are bad in CC because of the above AND because 6e is no longer a CC game. CC got hit HARD with the nerf bat. In 5e, DE HtH armies STILL weren't great, but you could at least put up a decent fight with a reasonable chance that a well built list could pull out a win.

I was thinking of something else... the girlfriend likes the Wych models? You could try to talk her into a compromise... buy Wych models and Kabalite arm bits. Use the torsos and legs for Wyches, but give them Kabalite weapons. Have her run them as Kabalites.
The armor won't look exactly right, but it won't be awful.
It'll work, because the DE troop choices were made so that their parts were interchangeable.

Eric

High initiative and attacks doesn't matter when you're wounding on 5s 6s and have no armor pen. Wyches just don't do enough damage and crumble to cc and shooting.

Which is exactly why I said earlier that you take bloodbrides and shove a haemo with them with an Agoniser, add a Hekatrix with an Agoniser and upgrade one of the 3 remaining Bloodbrides to use either Hydro Gauntlets or Razorflails.

Instantly you have 2x AP3 Poison weapons, 2x 4 attacks on the charge and 1 girly with either re rolls of hits and wounds or +D6 attacks.

They will have FNP and whatever you have on combat drugs (anything from 3+ is good for Bloodbrides with a Haemo, although +1 Strength or a free Pain Token are best), plus the 4+ Invul and FNP from the Haemo makes them rather deadly in CC.

Standard Wyches suck. Bloodbrides run in the correct way are amazing. Plus you can easily convert female Haemonculus so they look the part.

MagickalMemories, I like the Wych body and Kabalite Weapon idea. Would work for Warriors, Trueborn, Helions for sure and a few other units with some modification.

If you wanted a fluffy list you could realistically make a DE Girl army (just make sure to paint them PINK!).

Shingen wrote:
Which is exactly why I said earlier that you take bloodbrides and shove a haemo with them with an Agoniser, add a Hekatrix with an Agoniser and upgrade one of the 3 remaining Bloodbrides to use either Hydro Gauntlets or Razorflails.

Instantly you have 2x AP3 Poison weapons, 2x 4 attacks on the charge and 1 girly with either re rolls of hits and wounds or +D6 attacks.

They will have FNP and whatever you have on combat drugs (anything from 3+ is good for Bloodbrides with a Haemo, although +1 Strength or a free Pain Token are best), plus the 4+ Invul and FNP from the Haemo makes them rather deadly in CC.

Standard Wyches suck. Bloodbrides run in the correct way are amazing. Plus you can easily convert female Haemonculus so they look the part.

MagickalMemories, I like the Wych body and Kabalite Weapon idea. Would work for Warriors, Trueborn, Helions for sure and a few other units with some modification.

If you wanted a fluffy list you could realistically make a DE Girl army (just make sure to paint them PINK!).

My problem with your suggestion, though, is that this unit never reaches HtH.
That is a 204 point unit with no upgrades to the Venom (which, I hope, you're putting them in. Their 4+ Invul save is only in HtH. Right?
Here's how I see it going:
Turn 1, drop a few rounds at the Venom until is is dead. Ignore whatever comes out, unless you have a few easy shots of opportunity
Turn 2, Ignore what came out, unless it's trying to get closer
Turn 3 (forward) ignore what came out until you have the spare shots or they're getting too close for comfort. Then, kill them dead. A few shots with something of high enough S as to ignore FNP will surely have a high enough AP to ignore that, too. Maybe they've got a 5+ cover save.
I just don't see them doing anything, and it leaves you (a) needing another Haemonculus for Warlord (or give you the point for Slay the Warlord) and at least 2 troops... and something to deal with Armor.

Eric

Try them out before dismissing them, theorycrafting doesn't get you anywhere.

I often run 3 squads of these in games and they work fine.