Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This came up in a different thread, but I didn't want to hijack it too much since it's already seen more hijacking than downtown Chicago. So I'm posting it here.

Someone said "Blast weapons follow Line of Sight rules, so you wouldn't be able to wound any models you couldn't see [even if they were under the template]."

As far as I know, you need line of sight to target a unit, but line of sight does not impact wound allocation. Under that reading of the rules, if you're under the template, if doesn't matter if the firing unit can see you or not, since the munition has left their control and is now flailing around the battlefield, free to wound anyone it likes. Gimme your two cents' worth, I guess.

Check the rules for allocating wounds and removing casualties, the 'Out of Sight' section in particular. You will see that the rules for template weapons provide no exception to these rules.

EDIT: Are you talking about templates (the flamer template is the only 'template' in the game) or Blast Markers?

 TehGonzalez wrote:
This came up in a different thread, but I didn't want to hijack it too much since it's already seen more hijacking than downtown Chicago. So I'm posting it here.

Someone said "Blast weapons follow Line of Sight rules, so you wouldn't be able to wound any models you couldn't see [even if they were under the template]."

As far as I know, you need line of sight to target a unit, but line of sight does not impact wound allocation. Under that reading of the rules, if you're under the template, if doesn't matter if the firing unit can see you or not, since the munition has left their control and is now flailing around the battlefield, free to wound anyone it likes. Gimme your two cents' worth, I guess.

Its appears that the quote is using a incorrect term. Replace Template with marker. But blasts can hit and wound out of los.

Fragile wrote:

 TehGonzalez wrote:
This came up in a different thread, but I didn't want to hijack it too much since it's already seen more hijacking than downtown Chicago. So I'm posting it here.

Someone said "Blast weapons follow Line of Sight rules, so you wouldn't be able to wound any models you couldn't see [even if they were under the template]."

As far as I know, you need line of sight to target a unit, but line of sight does not impact wound allocation. Under that reading of the rules, if you're under the template, if doesn't matter if the firing unit can see you or not, since the munition has left their control and is now flailing around the battlefield, free to wound anyone it likes. Gimme your two cents' worth, I guess.

Its appears that the quote is using a incorrect term. Replace Template with marker. But blasts can hit and wound out of los.

Blast markers can hit and wound models out of line of sight, but models out of line of sight of any models in the firing unit can not have wounds allocated to it.

Blast markers can hit and wound models out of line of sight, but models out of line of sight of any models in the firing unit can not have wounds allocated to it.

Wrong

RB wrote:hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight (or even your own units, or models locked in combat).

and

RB wrote:Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit

U can wound out of sight and out of lane

Mr.T wrote:

Blast markers can hit and wound models out of line of sight, but models out of line of sight of any models in the firing unit can not have wounds allocated to it.

Wrong

RB wrote:hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight (or even your own units, or models locked in combat).

and

RB wrote:Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit

U can wound out of sight and out of lane

But the wound pool would still be empty at that point.

"If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost." (The Shooting Phase chapter, Out of Sight section).

 DeathReaper wrote:

Mr.T wrote:

Blast markers can hit and wound models out of line of sight, but models out of line of sight of any models in the firing unit can not have wounds allocated to it.

Wrong

RB wrote:hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight (or even your own units, or models locked in combat).

and

RB wrote:Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit

U can wound out of sight and out of lane

You can not allocate wounds to models that are out of Line of Sight of any models in the firing unit, so I was actually correct, and not wrong.

This quote backs up why my statement is correct.

"If none of the firing models can draw a line of sight to a particular model in the target unit, then Wounds cannot be allocated to it, and must instead be allocated to the nearest visible model in the target unit." (The Shooting Phase chapter, Out of Sight section).

The underlined contradicts the general rule and is more specific. Therefore you were incorrect.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Mr.T wrote:

Blast markers can hit and wound models out of line of sight, but models out of line of sight of any models in the firing unit can not have wounds allocated to it.

Wrong

RB wrote:hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight (or even your own units, or models locked in combat).

and

RB wrote:Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit

U can wound out of sight and out of lane

You can not allocate wounds to models that are out of Line of Sight of any models in the firing unit, so I was actually correct, and not wrong.

This quote backs up why my statement is correct.

"If none of the firing models can draw a line of sight to a particular model in the target unit, then Wounds cannot be allocated to it, and must instead be allocated to the nearest visible model in the target unit." (The Shooting Phase chapter, Out of Sight section).

The underlined contradicts the general rule and is more specific. Therefore you were incorrect.

That is why I amended my post rig.

 DeathReaper wrote:
That is why I amended my post rig.

Which you did after I posted so...

And your statement was still false - you can absolutely have wounds allocated to models that are out of line of sight.
You'd just have an empty wound pool if the entire unit was out of LoS.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
That is why I amended my post rig.

Which you did after I posted so...

And your statement was still false - you can absolutely have wounds allocated to models that are out of line of sight.
You'd just have an empty wound pool if the entire unit was out of LoS.

As I said, that is why I amended my post, because you can allocate to models out of line of sight if they are the closest model and at least one model in the unit was in Line of Sight of at least one firing model.

(I was editing as you were posting, don't be so quick).

So if the Blast scatters such that it hits models in a unit that is completely out-of-sight of all models in the firing unit, can wounds be allocated to them?

Snapshot wrote:
So if the Blast scatters such that it hits models in a unit that is completely out-of-sight of all models in the firing unit, can wounds be allocated to them?

Only if there is a model in the unit that is in Line of sight.

If none of the models in the target unit are in Line of Sight then the wound pool empties.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Snapshot wrote:
So if the Blast scatters such that it hits models in a unit that is completely out-of-sight of all models in the firing unit, can wounds be allocated to them?

Only if there is a model in the unit that is in Line of sight.

If none of the models in the target unit are in Line of Sight then the wound pool empties.

Which is the same RAW that making Homing weapons useless.

So if the Blast scatters such that it hits models in a unit that is completely out-of-sight of all models in the firing unit, can wounds be allocated to them?

Weapons with general permission to hit and wound out of LOS can indeed allocate wounds to them.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Snapshot wrote:
So if the Blast scatters such that it hits models in a unit that is completely out-of-sight of all models in the firing unit, can wounds be allocated to them?

Only if there is a model in the unit that is in Line of sight.

If none of the models in the target unit are in Line of Sight then the wound pool empties.

Which is the same RAW that making Homing weapons useless.

True, but that is the RAW.

I think someone got problem with understanding readed text, so one more time:

Rulebook wrote:hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight (or even your own units, or models locked in combat)

you can hit and wound out of sight and out of line, srsly you got problem with understanding that?

It even states, specifically, that you allocate Blast wounds to the closest model in the unit, even if they are out of LOS

 DeathReaper wrote:
"If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost." (The Shooting Phase chapter, Out of Sight section).

This states "remaining", so it would apply once some casualties have been removed.

In the case of a blast scattering onto a fully out-of-sight unit (or Homing weapons), there was no line of sight to begin with, and as nos & rigeld point out:

Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit

Is more specific and the weapon resolved as a unique item. There can be no "remaining" wounds.

Mr.T wrote:
I think someone got problem with understanding readed text, so one more time:

Rulebook wrote:hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight (or even your own units, or models locked in combat)

you can hit and wound out of sight and out of line, srsly you got problem with understanding that?

Wounding units is not the same as wounding models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
"If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost." (The Shooting Phase chapter, Out of Sight section).

This states "remaining", so it would apply once some casualties have been removed.

That's an interesting assertion. It has no basis in how language is used, but it's interesting.

Let me see if I have the logic train right....

1. Blast weapon scatters
2. Count the number of hits, including models out of LOS
3. Work out Wounds as normal
4. Allocate Wounds...
4a. If at least one model in the target unit is visible to at least one model in the firing unit, allocate the Wound to the closest model, even if it is out of LOS (Blast rule override of basic rule).
4b. If there are NO models in the target visible to any model in the firing unit, the Wound pool empties with none being allocated (regular Out of Sight rule).

Is that correct?

In 4a and 4b, is it sufficient for ANY model in the firing unit to see a target model, or does it need to be FIRING model?

Correct. Any model in the firing unit.

Rigeld - how are you negating the specific language requiring you to allocate wounds from thw wound pool regardless of line of sight? Its the same wording, near as, t othe FAQ frmo 6th edition.

One of the steps of Allocate Wounds is Out of Sight. Out of Sight has this rule:

If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost.

Nothing in the Blast rules counter/override that rule. It's exactly like post-FAQ 6th. RAW for homing weapons doesn't make sense so I play those as if the quoted rule doesn't exist. For blast weapons, however, I play it as written.

rigeld2 wrote:
One of the steps of Allocate Wounds is Out of Sight. Out of Sight has this rule:

If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost.

Nothing in the Blast rules counter/override that rule. It's exactly like post-FAQ 6th. RAW for homing weapons doesn't make sense so I play those as if the quoted rule doesn't exist. For blast weapons, however, I play it as written.

Which makes no sense. The permission to ignore LOS is clear for allocating wounds. Ignoring all but a small part of that subsection is hypocritical.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
One of the steps of Allocate Wounds is Out of Sight. Out of Sight has this rule:

If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost.

Nothing in the Blast rules counter/override that rule. It's exactly like post-FAQ 6th. RAW for homing weapons doesn't make sense so I play those as if the quoted rule doesn't exist. For blast weapons, however, I play it as written.

Which makes no sense. The permission to ignore LOS is clear for allocating wounds. Ignoring all but a small part of that subsection is hypocritical.

Hypocritical? Please elaborate on what you mean. What beliefs am I pushing that I don't practice?

Blast clearly gives permission to allocate to models out of LOS, but I can't see how it overrides the emptying of the Wound pool when no models in the target are visible.

You give Homing permission to not empty the wound pool and allocate on units completely out of LOS based on..

Impaler cannons can be fired at targets out of the unit's line of sight."

You do not give permission for blasts to do the same based on..

"Note that it is possible, and absolutely fine, for a shot to scatter beyond the weapon’s maximum or minimum range and line of sight. This represents the chance of ricochets, the missile blasting through cover and other random events. In these cases, hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight(or even your own units, or models locked in combat)...........each unit suffers one hit for each of their models which is fully or partially
beneath the blast marker, even if those models are not within the firer’s line of sight

Which is far more specific permission to allocate wounds to that unit that is out of LOS. Your interpretation also makes Barrage interesting as it covers both of your permissions.

rigeld2 wrote:
One of the steps of Allocate Wounds is Out of Sight. Out of Sight has this rule:

If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost.

Nothing in the Blast rules counter/override that rule. It's exactly like post-FAQ 6th. RAW for homing weapons doesn't make sense so I play those as if the quoted rule doesn't exist. For blast weapons, however, I play it as written.

Apart from where it tells you to allocate wounds to models out of LOS if they are closest, which would also cover when there are no models at all in LOS? (the degenerate case, essentially)

How are you complying with the rule to allocate wounds by emptying the wound pool, and not allocating any wounds?

Fragile wrote:You give Homing permission to not empty the wound pool and allocate on units completely out of LOS based on..

Impaler cannons can be fired at targets out of the unit's line of sight."

You do not give permission for blasts to do the same based on..

"Note that it is possible, and absolutely fine, for a shot to scatter beyond the weapon’s maximum or minimum range and line of sight. This represents the chance of ricochets, the missile blasting through cover and other random events. In these cases, hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight(or even your own units, or models locked in combat)...........each unit suffers one hit for each of their models which is fully or partially
beneath the blast marker, even if those models are not within the firer’s line of sight

Which is far more specific permission to allocate wounds to that unit that is out of LOS. Your interpretation also makes Barrage interesting as it covers both of your permissions.

So you meant "contradictory" and not "Hypocritical". That's fair, but remember that words mean things. The latter is rather insulting but I didn't believe you meant it that way, which is why I asked for clarification.
And yes - HIWPI is contradictory because GW writes poor rules. I see that you're attacking my HIWPI argument rather than the RAW one so I'll just stop there.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
One of the steps of Allocate Wounds is Out of Sight. Out of Sight has this rule:

If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost.

Nothing in the Blast rules counter/override that rule. It's exactly like post-FAQ 6th. RAW for homing weapons doesn't make sense so I play those as if the quoted rule doesn't exist. For blast weapons, however, I play it as written.

Apart from where it tells you to allocate wounds to models out of LOS if they are closest, which would also cover when there are no models at all in LOS? (the degenerate case, essentially)

How are you complying with the rule to allocate wounds by emptying the wound pool, and not allocating any wounds?

I enter the Allocate Wounds step. I have permission to allocate wounds, which contradicts and overrides the first half of Out of Sight.
What rule contradicts and overrides the requirement to empty the wound pool? Please cite it.

If you empty the wound pool, have you allocated a wound to a model? Yes or no.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If you empty the wound pool, have you allocated a wound to a model? Yes or no.

No. But I am following a rule that requires me to empty the pool. You've (again) refused to cite a rule contradicting the one I'm following.