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Basically, are there any? It never describes how the Primarchless Legions ever felt about the Codex Astartes at least I never saw any but as far as I know the Iron Hands went to found more chapters but what about the Salamanders? I know they are like the Space Wolves in they like to help the average Imperial citizen over following an order that would doom a planet so does that mean they were like the Space Wolves and totally rejected the Codex as well? I just haven't seen anything that would say one way or another and that there are some rumors of Chapters sharing a gene-seed ready but anything in the actual SM codex that I missed or maybe in a bit of Fluff from BL? I mean the Codex obviously shows that a Chapter could share the same tactics as the Salamanders but not that there are any in their lineage.

There are no confirmed successors, but there are a few chapters that are believed to be successors such as the Storm Giants and Black Dragons.

afaik, the Salamanders do not really adhere to the codex, but neither do they reject it to the extent of the Space Wolves.
There are no confirmed successors chapters of the Salamanders. The legion was utterly decimated in the Horus Heresy and did not found any new chapters in the Second Founding.
It is possible however that later on, new chapters have been created using Salamanders geneseed such as abovementioned Storm Giants and Black Dragons, who are suspected to be successors of the Salamanders.

So the Salamanders took to recovering their legion vs. trying to start new successor Chapters instead but didn't the same thing happen to the Raven Guard and Iron Hands? They still went on to go found other chapters. There doesn't happen to be a piece of fluff that explains the Salamanders disposition of why they continue to choose not to found more chapters does it?

 Envihon wrote:
So the Salamanders took to recovering their legion vs. trying to start new successor Chapters instead but didn't the same thing happen to the Raven Guard and Iron Hands? They still went on to go found other chapters. There doesn't happen to be a piece of fluff that explains the Salamanders disposition of why they continue to choose not to found more chapters does it?

Not in so many words, but the basic idea is that they've never been able to recover their numbers enough to even make a 1000 marine codex chapter. That is how badly they were beaten at Isstvan.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
So the Salamanders took to recovering their legion vs. trying to start new successor Chapters instead but didn't the same thing happen to the Raven Guard and Iron Hands? They still went on to go found other chapters. There doesn't happen to be a piece of fluff that explains the Salamanders disposition of why they continue to choose not to found more chapters does it?

Not in so many words, but the basic idea is that they've never been able to recover their numbers enough to even make a 1000 marine codex chapter. That is how badly they were beaten at Isstvan.

It is a bit odd that they have not - although the novels do show that their selection process is perhaps overely harsh..................

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
So the Salamanders took to recovering their legion vs. trying to start new successor Chapters instead but didn't the same thing happen to the Raven Guard and Iron Hands? They still went on to go found other chapters. There doesn't happen to be a piece of fluff that explains the Salamanders disposition of why they continue to choose not to found more chapters does it?

Not in so many words, but the basic idea is that they've never been able to recover their numbers enough to even make a 1000 marine codex chapter. That is how badly they were beaten at Isstvan.

It is a bit odd that they have not - although the novels do show that their selection process is perhaps overely harsh..................

After a few centuries it probably started to become more tradition than anything. They got used to having everything organized in a specific manner, so they probably just fell into a routine of maintaining that organization.

So there are certain traditions and rituals that keep them from getting up to the normal 1000 troops? Like what? I thought these guys were the "By the people, for the people" kind of Space Marines.

The current status of a given Chapter has nothing to do with whether or not it has any successors. All Chapters are required to tithe geneseed to the AdMech, and it is from these stocks that new Chapters are founded.

 Psienesis wrote:
The current status of a given Chapter has nothing to do with whether or not it has any successors. All Chapters are required to tithe geneseed to the AdMech, and it is from these stocks that new Chapters are founded.

Then there would be Salamander successor Chapters. Do the First Foundings know about which Chapter is there's or do they just do it without much thought?

Can go either way. It is not the Chapter that calls for a Successor being made, but the High Lords of Terra. Sometimes the Founding Chapter is told. Sometimes it is not.

 Envihon wrote:
So there are certain traditions and rituals that keep them from getting up to the normal 1000 troops? Like what? I thought these guys were the "By the people, for the people" kind of Space Marines.

No, what I meant is that after the Heresy they organized their chapter into something befitting their reduced numbers. After a time that organization would start to be ingrained into their minds, and so it became the norm for them.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
So there are certain traditions and rituals that keep them from getting up to the normal 1000 troops? Like what? I thought these guys were the "By the people, for the people" kind of Space Marines.

No, what I meant is that after the Heresy they organized their chapter into something befitting their reduced numbers. After a time that organization would start to be ingrained into their minds, and so it became the norm for them.

True, the Salamanders only have 7 companies instead of the 10 companies maintained by codex chapters. Even before the Heresy, the Salamanders were already the smallest of all legions, so I guess it is somewhat of a tradition for them.

Technically the Raven Guard were the smallest legion going into Istvaan, at only 80,000 marines to the Salamander's 89,000.

And in fact their organization models their pre-heresy organization, which revolved around the seven realms of Nocturne, the largest organizational units within the legion. Those seven became the seven companies after they broke down into chapters.

IMHO, the reason why the Salamanders' gene-seed had been passed by the AdMech was due to their gene-seed's rampant mutation and instability


Ok, I get that that was supposed to be a piece of old fluff, and it has been retconned (?) - I seem to remember someone here once linked to another chart that shows SW's gene-seed to be most unstable in some other thread. Still, that could be an explanation why no known successor chapter was ever been written about.

 lcmiracle wrote:
IMHO, the Salamanders' gene-seed have been passed for a "donor" was because their gene-seed's rampant mutation and instability


Ok, I get that that was supposed to be a piece of old fluff, and it has been retconned (?), I believe someone here linked to another chart that shows SW's gene-seed to be most unstable in another thread. Still, that could be an explanation why no known successor chapter was ever been written about.

Salamander geneseed is actually among the most stable and rampant horrible defects have never been mentioned. It just doesn't produce golden haired angelic heroes, but guys with coal black skin, sometimes even resulting in scales, glowing red eyes, and ridiculous radiation tolerance.

In the most recant SM codex it say's that there are no known Salamander successors because Vulkan asked Guilliman if he could not split his legion up in to chapters because he was concerned that his legion was already too depleted.
It also says that the Black Dragons Chapter and the Storm Giants chapters are likely Salamander's successors

After heresy they where nigh destroyed as a legion. They took some of the biggest loss,s of all legions. They had it rough, the loss,s they took at the betrayal where brutal.

I understand the Drop Sight Massacre hit them hard but as Psinesis pointed out, they give their gene-seed to the Ad Mech and it has been 10k years since that happened with the Iron Hands and Raven Guard recovering enough to found chapters. The only explanation is that they do have an unstable gene-seed but that may have been ret-conned and now they might have the most stable. A whole lot of questions just perk up.

 lcmiracle wrote:
IMHO, the reason why the Salamanders' gene-seed had been passed by the AdMech was due to their gene-seed's rampant mutation and instability


Ok, I get that that was supposed to be a piece of old fluff, and it has been retconned (?) - I seem to remember someone here once linked to another chart that shows SW's gene-seed to be most unstable in some other thread. Still, that could be an explanation why no known successor chapter was ever been written about.

That chart is a piece of gak. There have never been any mentions of mutations or unstability with the Salamanders geneseed, yet FFG made it more unstable than the notoriously unstable BA and RG geneseeds, and even worse than the SW, whose geneseed is so unstable that it will produce naught but horrible mutations in any non-fenrisian. It is just another example of FFG messing up fluff (not that such things are unique to FFG )
The reason why there are no more Salamanders successors is probably because Salamander geneseed is very rare, because there have always been so few Salamanders.
More accurate it would have been to put Salamanders at 10% like the other stable geneseeds, and Space Wolves should be left out entirely because SW successors are not possible, but otherwise it should have been put at 100%. Raven Guard should have been 50% like BA.

 Envihon wrote:
I understand the Drop Sight Massacre hit them hard but as Psinesis pointed out, they give their gene-seed to the Ad Mech and it has been 10k years since that happened with the Iron Hands and Raven Guard recovering enough to found chapters. The only explanation is that they do have an unstable gene-seed but that may have been ret-conned and now they might have the most stable. A whole lot of questions just perk up.

The Salamanders were devastated much more heavily than the Raven Guard, let alone the Iron Hands who only lost their Primarch and a single company in the Drop Site Massacre. The Salamanders were almost entirely wiped out, fewer than a 1000 marines survived. While the Salamanders undoubtedly also give gene-seed to the AdMech, the amount of geneseed they can spare is probably so small that it is not enough to found many new chapters. After all, creating new geneseed takes a really long time.

We may not have a confirmed successor Chapter of the Salamanders.
But it was never a list of successors you could look up. The chart almost everyone knows is a incomplete representation of the successors and the Legions, based upon an apocrypha.
The important bit there is : known successors. Not all of them are known in M40.
2nd founding had hundreds of Chapters. ( more than 400 if C: GK 5th ed can be trusted ). The millenia since then saw 25+ foundings of Chapters .
A 1000 chapters usually, the Names of some known, but the heritage of so many isn't shown, so IMO a successor based on Salamander geneseed is possible.

The very special dark skin - red eyes thing is maybe just the influence of Nocturne and a successor in a different environment may not look like them.
To claim to be a succcesssor of one of the Legions is maybe not easy to confirm. The Ad Mech involved in the process may know.
But if they were a bit creative ( and mixed a few things to correct deficancies ).... the reply may take a few thousand years...

Uh... the Salamanders are *defined* by a mutation in their geneseed! It is this mutation that causes the red eyes, the coal-black skin and the high radiation tolerance. The mutation causes problems with a few of their implants, which leads to the above-mentioned mutations.

This, apparently, happens in almost every Salamander, thus a 90% mutation rate.

Mutations are more than tentacles and a flaming skull head.

 Psienesis wrote:
Uh... the Salamanders are *defined* by a mutation in their geneseed! It is this mutation that causes the red eyes, the coal-black skin and the high radiation tolerance. The mutation causes problems with a few of their implants, which leads to the above-mentioned mutations.

This, apparently, happens in almost every Salamander, thus a 90% mutation rate.

Mutations are more than tentacles and a flaming skull head.

Except the problem is that chart is for gene seed instability. And Salamanders are among the most stable and all their gene seed organs are fully functioning, if not overly so.

 Psienesis wrote:
Uh... the Salamanders are *defined* by a mutation in their geneseed! It is this mutation that causes the red eyes, the coal-black skin and the high radiation tolerance. The mutation causes problems with a few of their implants, which leads to the above-mentioned mutations.

This, apparently, happens in almost every Salamander, thus a 90% mutation rate.

Mutations are more than tentacles and a flaming skull head.

This is what I thought but if these gene-seed mutations happen quite frequently yet have no Chaotic mutagen effect on the Marine itself, would the Ad Mech still be hesitant to start chapters with it? Some of those mutations are superficial and I would think the high radiation tolerance would be a good thing but we know how the Imperium is and despite how something might be advantageous if it is a mutation it must be bad.

Is it really a mutation in their geneseed? Considering the fact that the the two rumored successors don't have red eyes, the coal-black skin, and don't have high radiation tolerance, I'm not quite sure if that would be all that logical. It's not the best source but Lexicanum elaborates claiming that their geneseed is stable and the mutations are merely superficial.

Add to that, if that was a claim for mutation, wouldn't it be arguable that SW would need a 100% chance considering how drastically the genes mutate their looks coupled with only working with one planet, all IF have lost two of their organs, Raven Guard should be drastically high considering their Mucranoid and Betcher's Gland are missing and their Melanchromic Organ is mutated in a way that every single Raven is pale white with coal-black hair. Then toss on BA having only 50% mutation despite the blood thirst and black rage.

The chart could definitely be wrong, make no mistake, I'm just pointing out that the Salamander gene-seed is "stable" in that its flaws happen pretty much all the time, in the exact same way, every time.

 Psienesis wrote:
Uh... the Salamanders are *defined* by a mutation in their geneseed! It is this mutation that causes the red eyes, the coal-black skin and the high radiation tolerance. The mutation causes problems with a few of their implants, which leads to the above-mentioned mutations.

This, apparently, happens in almost every Salamander, thus a 90% mutation rate.

Mutations are more than tentacles and a flaming skull head.

This is not a flaw in their geneseed, this is due to the influence of the environment on their homeworld, Nocturne. If the Salamanders had a different homeworld, it would likely not happen.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Uh... the Salamanders are *defined* by a mutation in their geneseed! It is this mutation that causes the red eyes, the coal-black skin and the high radiation tolerance. The mutation causes problems with a few of their implants, which leads to the above-mentioned mutations.

This, apparently, happens in almost every Salamander, thus a 90% mutation rate.

Mutations are more than tentacles and a flaming skull head.

This is not a flaw in their geneseed, this is due to the influence of the environment on their homeworld, Nocturne. If the Salamanders had a different homeworld, it would likely not happen.

Which, if the two rumored Salamander successors are really just that, one of them is entirely normal in looks and only guessed to be a successor due to their care for humans and then there's Black Dragons that seemingly have a high rate of bone mutations but no other signs. Overall, it seems it is more due to the planet than anything else.

The regular people of Nocturne are not noted for similar appearances, so it cannot entirely be an environmental effect. There must be some interaction between it and the geneseed/implants, which makes sense as response to environmental factors is what causes evolutionary mutations in living organisms.

The FW HH book makes mention that while there was some pigmentation and reddening of the eyes asking Terrans prior to Vulkan's discovery, it wasn't until Nocturne became a recruitment world that the Salamanders became pitch black with red eyes. It's definitely an interaction of the geneseed and the home world.

As for the table above, it's a game mechanic, not something that was intended to justify lore. It's the equivalent to saying all S4 units are exactly the same amount stronger than all S3 units. It's just an abstraction for the purposes of a die roll.