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so going through the glottkin book and the three chaos army books it looks like each army, Warriors, daemons and beastmen, can all take their own BSBs. Even looking in the BRB it has an allowance for an army to have more than a single BSBs. Anyone else run across this or can anyone find a reason this can't be done?

I do believe only one character can be upgraded to be a bsb per army but their are some characters that act like a bsb so for those instances the army would effectively have more then one but as far as the upgrade to a character i think its maxed at 1 per army.

If not that should be faq'ed because that may get silly

TinTip wrote:
Even looking in the BRB it has an allowance for an army to have more than a single BSBs.

Actually, it doesn't. The BSB rules on page 107 only refer to the BSB in the singular in every instance but one- there's a blurb about if you happen to have two BSBs in a combat, you only get the bonus once- but it goes on to say that this could only happen if you happen to be using the Allies rules.

The LoC is a unified army, and doesn't use the Allies rules.

It says allies are one way it might happen not the only way. It also says nowhere In the brb that you are limited to only one

TinTip wrote:
It says allies are one way it might happen not the only way. It also says nowhere In the brb that you are limited to only one

Doesnt it say in the armybooks under the bsb option that 1 model may be upgraded to be a bsb per army? If the legions of chaos are consindered a unified army then to me that allows only 1 bsb upgrade

To me being able to have 3 bsb's is kind of wonky. If the rules allow it i would say its ok then and they are worth an extra 100vp each.

TinTip wrote:
It says allies are one way it might happen not the only way. It also says nowhere In the brb that you are limited to only one

Permissive rules set. It doesn't tell you everything you can't do, it tells you what you can do. Your not using allies, your using a LoC army. You get one BSB.

So I am permitted to have an exalted hero take a BSB I am also permitted to have a wargor take a BSB and I am permitted to have a herald take a BSB none of which conflict with any rules

TinTip wrote:
So I am permitted to have an exalted hero take a BSB I am also permitted to have a wargor take a BSB and I am permitted to have a herald take a BSB none of which conflict with any rules

Provide rules quotes from the Glottkin book for evidence.

"You must use the the profiles, points costs, equipment, options and special rules found in the warhammer: beastmen, warhammer: daemons, warhammer: warriors of chaos."

The BSB in each book is a separate option

Your original post is faulted. As there is no premise that supports multiple bsb in the same army. It states that you might find the situation using allies. When using allies you are using separate armies allied together, each with its own BSB. The LoC is not separate armies on the battlefield but rather a brand new army that allows you to take units from any of the books. There is absolutely no evidence than the BRB supports a single army having multiple BSB,only multiple armies allied having multiple BSB.

There is no rule saying it can not take more than one BSB it is an option in each army book

Don't have my army books handy, but I believe each book says something to the effect of:

"One [insert hero choice here] in the army may be chosen to carry the army's Battle Standard." (emphasis mine)

If it indeed says 'the', that seems enough indication of singular to satisfy even RAW. Of course, this is a case where RAI is stupidly obvious and anyone trying to field more than one should be chased out of the store with bricks.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Don't have my army books handy, but I believe each book says something to the effect of:

"One [insert hero choice here] in the army may be chosen to carry the army's Battle Standard." (emphasis mine)

If it indeed says 'the', that seems enough indication of singular to satisfy even RAW. Of course, this is a case where RAI is stupidly obvious and anyone trying to field more than one should be chased out of the store with bricks.

Checked my WE book, and this is the case.

TinTip wrote:
There is no rule saying it can not take more than one BSB it is an option in each army book

Again...look up the definition of a permissive rule set. Its not going to tell you everything you cant do....it tells you what you can do. RAW your wrong as has been presented to you based on the wording of "the army" in the army books. RAI the community has so far basically said your wrong. At this point you are basically sticking your fingers in your ears, stomping your foot and screaming I WANT! IWANT! I WANT!. If you want to try it, and your opponent allows go for it. I wouldn't allow it, and no tourney is going to let you do it.

Every BSB upgrade line says something to the effect of "one X may be upgraded to carry the army battle standard."

This implicitly says you can only have one per army. LoC is one army.

If it can be upgraded then this is good

 Grey Templar wrote:
Every BSB upgrade line says something to the effect of "one X may be upgraded to carry the army battle standard."

This implicitly says you can only have one per army. LoC is one army.

Well, the DoC book says "one Herald."

The WoC book says "one something else." (can't remember the name of the hero level WoC character entry.)

The Beastmen book says "one Gorebull or Beast-whatever."

If you're playing an army that has access to all three, you can theoretically take one of each and not violate any of the rules.

Probably not what's intended, but YMDC is about what the rules say. Once we figure that out, if we don't like it, we can discuss how we believe it should be played instead.

Saldiven wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Every BSB upgrade line says something to the effect of "one X may be upgraded to carry the army battle standard."

This implicitly says you can only have one per army. LoC is one army.

Well, the DoC book says "one Herald."

The WoC book says "one something else." (can't remember the name of the hero level WoC character entry.)

The Beastmen book says "one Gorebull or Beast-whatever."

If you're playing an army that has access to all three, you can theoretically take one of each and not violate any of the rules.

Probably not what's intended, but YMDC is about what the rules say. Once we figure that out, if we don't like it, we can discuss how we believe it should be played instead.

It's not an army battle standard. It's the army battle standard. As in singular.

TinTip wrote:
It says allies are one way it might happen not the only way.

Incorrect, you're adding words that aren't there. It says "this might happen with Allied armies, see page 136". Full stop. Where in that does it give allowance for any other instance?

The BRB only applies to "The Battle Standard" in a singular way
If you field several, none of them are THE single one BSB that the BRB talks about, so none of them should provide the BSB benefits

This is just silly. BSB is clearly one per army. LoC is still a single army. I don't get why people are arguing?

IMO after going through books over and over...
You could take more than one battle standard as the rules are.
For example, the warriors of chaos book says one exalted hero per army can carry the battle standard...
Daemons of chaos says one herald can carry the battle standard...
So, yes, you can take 2. If you also included Beastmen you could have 3.
It is only one herald carrying and one exalted hero, etc, this allows you two BSB.
Now move into Glottkins book.
Pg 16 under introduction it states 'legions of chaos army refers to a combined force chosen from aforementioned army books. A legions of chaos army is considered to be a forces of destruction force for the purposes of the allied armies rules found in the warhammer rule book..
SO...into the rule book on page 137 under the 'bound by blood' heading it says 'trusted allies can use an allied battle standards hold your ground special rule, but only if they are from the same race/realm as the allied battle standard. I.e the same army book.
So your exalted heroes BSB will do nothing for your DoC and vise versa.

The 'the' and 'an' people are referring to is not singular vs. plural, it's definitive vs. nondefinintive.

i.e. an elephant (could be any elephant) vs. the elephant (specific elephant being referred to)

Now the army's uses the possessive, not the plural form. So the Battle Standard belongs to the army, that is the only distinction that needs to be made.

So what it's saying when it says: "One [insert hero choice here] in the army may be chosen to carry the army's Battle Standard."

It just means: in the specific army you choose, one hero of this entry type may be chosen to carry the army's Battle Standard.

Now the Daemons of Chaos is the only book before this which had multiple entries capable of taking the Battle Standard, which is why they use the term 'Heralds' (referring to all the Herald unit entries) otherwise you could argue that all of them could take Battle Standards.

So you could very well argue that if an army did not have a clause on each Battle Standard entry stating that only one hero could take it, then you could have multiple heroes taking the Battle Standard Bearer upgrade.

Same for Undead Legions, same for Legions of Chaos, that's RAW.

 Throt wrote:
IMO after going through books over and over...
You could take more than one battle standard as the rules are.
For example, the warriors of chaos book says one exalted hero per army can carry the battle standard...
Daemons of chaos says one herald can carry the battle standard...
So, yes, you can take 2. If you also included Beastmen you could have 3.
It is only one herald carrying and one exalted hero, etc, this allows you two BSB.
Now move into Glottkins book.
Pg 16 under introduction it states 'legions of chaos army refers to a combined force chosen from aforementioned army books. A legions of chaos army is considered to be a forces of destruction force for the purposes of the allied armies rules found in the warhammer rule book..
SO...into the rule book on page 137 under the 'bound by blood' heading it says 'trusted allies can use an allied battle standards hold your ground special rule, but only if they are from the same race/realm as the allied battle standard. I.e the same army book.
So your exalted heroes BSB will do nothing for your DoC and vise versa.

Just... no.

Starting at the end, first: Your premise that an Exalted Hero carrying a BSB would do nothing for Daemons or Beastmen in a Legion is inherently flawed as you are presuming a use of allies. It's already pretty clear that the Legion isn't allies, but rather a singular army. It is wholly possible to have a core made of just Chaos Warriors, but take all your special choices out of the Daemons book. This isn't something you can accomplish with allies.

That said, yes the Warriors book says one Exalted Hero may the Battle Standard and the Daemons book says on Herald may carry the Battle Standard. But since both books use the word 'the', we easily infer the army only has one Battle Standard, and they can't both carry it.

I'm really not seeing where people are finding ambiguity.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:


Just... no.

Starting at the end, first: Your premise that an Exalted Hero carrying a BSB would do nothing for Daemons or Beastmen in a Legion is inherently flawed as you are presuming a use of allies. It's already pretty clear that the Legion isn't allies, but rather a singular army. It is wholly possible to have a core made of just Chaos Warriors, but take all your special choices out of the Daemons book. This isn't something you can accomplish with allies.

That said, yes the Warriors book says one Exalted Hero may the Battle Standard and the Daemons book says on Herald may carry the Battle Standard. But since both books use the word 'the', we easily infer the army only has one Battle Standard, and they can't both carry it.

I'm really not seeing where people are finding ambiguity.

 Throt wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:


Just... no.

Starting at the end, first: Your premise that an Exalted Hero carrying a BSB would do nothing for Daemons or Beastmen in a Legion is inherently flawed as you are presuming a use of allies. It's already pretty clear that the Legion isn't allies, but rather a singular army. It is wholly possible to have a core made of just Chaos Warriors, but take all your special choices out of the Daemons book. This isn't something you can accomplish with allies.

That said, yes the Warriors book says one Exalted Hero may the Battle Standard and the Daemons book says on Herald may carry the Battle Standard. But since both books use the word 'the', we easily infer the army only has one Battle Standard, and they can't both carry it.

I'm really not seeing where people are finding ambiguity.

I'm not presuming allies it is in print. Like I said the Glotttkin book pg16 states that the LoC army is treated as a Forces of Destruction force for the purposes of the allied armies... Therefore each army (book) is treated as it's own army, allied with the others.
And again, the brb states how to treat BSB for allied armies.
And yes you can take all your core from chaos warriors, get a heroes and herald with a BSB from the DoC book ....and waste the points because he will not help the warriors.

Not even remotely correct. You treat it as a force of destruction for the purpose of what can ally with a LoC, not that the LoC is an allied army. So for example, if my opponent and I are playing an allied game, he brings High Elves and Empire lets say....and I bring LoC and Chaos Dwarves. Not Chaos dwarves and demons and beastmen and warriors. No where is the LoC treated as a group of allies armies, but rather as a single new army.

 quickfuze wrote:

 Throt wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:


Just... no.

Starting at the end, first: Your premise that an Exalted Hero carrying a BSB would do nothing for Daemons or Beastmen in a Legion is inherently flawed as you are presuming a use of allies. It's already pretty clear that the Legion isn't allies, but rather a singular army. It is wholly possible to have a core made of just Chaos Warriors, but take all your special choices out of the Daemons book. This isn't something you can accomplish with allies.

That said, yes the Warriors book says one Exalted Hero may the Battle Standard and the Daemons book says on Herald may carry the Battle Standard. But since both books use the word 'the', we easily infer the army only has one Battle Standard, and they can't both carry it.

I'm really not seeing where people are finding ambiguity.

I'm not presuming allies it is in print. Like I said the Glotttkin book pg16 states that the LoC army is treated as a Forces of Destruction force for the purposes of the allied armies... Therefore each army (book) is treated as it's own army, allied with the others.
And again, the brb states how to treat BSB for allied armies.
And yes you can take all your core from chaos warriors, get a heroes and herald with a BSB from the DoC book ....and waste the points because he will not help the warriors.

Not even remotely correct. You treat it as a force of destruction for the purpose of what can ally with a LoC, not that the LoC is an allied army. So for example, if my opponent and I are playing an allied game, he brings High Elves and Empire lets say....and I bring LoC and Chaos Dwarves. Not Chaos dwarves and demons and beastmen and warriors. No where is the LoC treated as a group of allies armies, but rather as a single new army.

^---This. That really shouldn't have needed to be explained.

It's pretty clear to me 1 BSB and 1 only, otherwise you also have to argue that UL also get 2 BSBs because the list comes from two separate books.

That being said, GW should have for convenience relisted the BSB option for the LoC list in the Glottkin book.

It would only have to be a short sentence or two saying the following:

"In a LoC of Chaos army, one Exalted Hero, Wargor, Gorebull or Herald may take the army battle standard for +25 points. If taken, then they take a magic standard of any points cost from their respective army book's magic standards allowance, if they do so they may not take other magic items, but may still take gifts of chaos, mutations and rewards respectively".

Something like that would have been pretty easy and makes sure there is no confusion like there is happening now.

 Krellnus wrote:
It's pretty clear to me 1 BSB and 1 only, otherwise you also have to argue that UL also get 2 BSBs because the list comes from two separate books.

That being said, GW should have for convenience relisted the BSB option for the LoC list in the Glottkin book.

It would only have to be a short sentence or two saying the following:

"In a LoC of Chaos army, one Exalted Hero, Wargor, Gorebull or Herald may take the army battle standard for +25 points. If taken, then they take a magic standard of any points cost from their respective army book's magic standards allowance, if they do so they may not take other magic items, but may still take gifts of chaos, mutations and rewards respectively".

Something like that would have been pretty easy and makes sure there is no confusion like there is happening now.

Unnecessary. The bsb is as has always been refered to as singular. 1 player=1 bsb

That is only needed for tfg. If he does not exist then that is no issue. This argument is all about who can be the biggest dbag about raw and what they can do to circumvent the system.

 namiel wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:
It's pretty clear to me 1 BSB and 1 only, otherwise you also have to argue that UL also get 2 BSBs because the list comes from two separate books.

That being said, GW should have for convenience relisted the BSB option for the LoC list in the Glottkin book.

It would only have to be a short sentence or two saying the following:

"In a LoC of Chaos army, one Exalted Hero, Wargor, Gorebull or Herald may take the army battle standard for +25 points. If taken, then they take a magic standard of any points cost from their respective army book's magic standards allowance, if they do so they may not take other magic items, but may still take gifts of chaos, mutations and rewards respectively".

Something like that would have been pretty easy and makes sure there is no confusion like there is happening now.

Unnecessary. The bsb is as has always been refered to as singular. 1 player=1 bsb

That is only needed for tfg. If he does not exist then that is no issue. This argument is all about who can be the biggest dbag about raw and what they can do to circumvent the system.

Tenets of YMDC #5: "Stick to discussing the rules, not the poster. Phrases like "Rules Lawyer", "Cheater" and "TFG" have no place in rules discussions. Don't depart from rules discussions by attaching value judgments to different interpretations."

Personally I'm of the opinion that yes, by RAW both UL and LoC can until ruled otherwise via FAQ or a new edition. It's a failure of 8th edition and the generally sloppy rules writing.

I don't see a massive benefit apart from being able to stack Frenzy Banner + Beast Banner, and even then you can simply take the Frenzy banner on the unit (for WS5 S5 w/ 4 attacks each, then again only 1 supporting attack so YMMV). There's no real logical way to really get anything more out of this.