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Decurion flow charts are now in two army books and I feel now that we are at this stage I think we need to discuss the elephant in the room. Their practical value. Now from gw's perspective these are awesome your now basically providing a "my first army list" for new players helping them to build an expansive shopping list of units to acquire to expand their armies. It also compresses formations. You no longer need 12 pages for 12 formations you can print them on maybe 3-5

The problem is that these formations are tied to the flow chart and can't be extracted. Your tied down to them unless you go back to traditional army building but then gw offers you no formations. It's flow charts of linearity or bust.

Formations used to be a fun way of Lego setting your army. You could take a few units you wouldn't normally take; pop them into your army and bam cool new flavours like the reclusiam command squad or the forgotten knight. The idea behind army building in the first place was pick and choose what you want. And formations were a way of adding in unique elements to your army that could do cool things to make it even more awesome. Now it's follow this list.. Or be a joe average and that's a bit insulting.

Imagine how this will work for marines. Its literally going to be taking the concept of unique army lists and standardizing them. What if I want formations on my cad? I now have to pay out the arm for them? No that's stupid. Dark Angels are going to be an absolute joke if they get this stupid flowchart of death should you follow it in any sort of way. And going cad is denying yourself special rules you could otherwise make use of (and let's be honest here in the next da book they need all the pickups you can stuff into their land raider if you catch my drift).

Gw has painted themselves into a corner in my eyes with these foolish ideas you rob players of army customization which is something they ve puahed for whole editions now and only widend the gap between armies that need a total overhaul and those already well off.and penalized players for trying to have fun with their army lists.

You can take a formation and a CAD. The only thing you can't take is the auxiliary stuff like the wraith constructs. In the eldar book for example nothing is stopping you from doing a CAD and wraith host, you just get the wraith host benefit but not the war host benefit. I use CAD because I play competitively and tax units are not worth the minor formation buff and loss of obsec. However if you're building a fluffy army there's no reason you can't take CAD + formation.

 Toofast wrote:
You can take a formation and a CAD. The only thing you can't take is the auxiliary stuff like the wraith constructs. In the eldar book for example nothing is stopping you from doing a CAD and wraith host, you just get the wraith host benefit but not the war host benefit. I use CAD because I play competitively and tax units are not worth the minor formation buff and loss of obsec. However if you're building a fluffy army there's no reason you can't take CAD + formation.

The tax is worth it if you can spam Jump Gargantuan Creatures with 36" D shots.

 Toofast wrote:
You can take a formation and a CAD. The only thing you can't take is the auxiliary stuff like the wraith constructs. In the eldar book for example nothing is stopping you from doing a CAD and wraith host, you just get the wraith host benefit but not the war host benefit. I use CAD because I play competitively and tax units are not worth the minor formation buff and loss of obsec. However if you're building a fluffy army there's no reason you can't take CAD + formation.

and if your building a fluffy army these formation groups are your friend anyway. the Necron Deucrion (I can't speak on the Eldar warhosts yet) are EXTREMELY good in terms of building up a Necron army that matches the fluff

 Xerics wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
You can take a formation and a CAD. The only thing you can't take is the auxiliary stuff like the wraith constructs. In the eldar book for example nothing is stopping you from doing a CAD and wraith host, you just get the wraith host benefit but not the war host benefit. I use CAD because I play competitively and tax units are not worth the minor formation buff and loss of obsec. However if you're building a fluffy army there's no reason you can't take CAD + formation.

The tax is worth it if you can spam Jump Gargantuan Creatures with 36" D shots.

Spamming 300 point, 2 shot single models is not efficient, especially when you get no bonus for taking multiples like the ad lance provides. I doubt we will see more than 1 WK in 1850 tournament lists. 1 is needed for that big threat, any more and you're better off spending the points somewhere else.

Three army books...

And I don't think the OP has quite grasped how it works... All of the formations can be taken without using the special detachment.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Three army books...

And I don't think the OP has quite grasped how it works... All of the formations can be taken without using the special detachment.

Only the ones with data sheets. In eldar, the outcasts, engines of vaul, wraith constructs, heroes and living legends cannot be taken without a core formation. The rest of the formations can be taken on their own.

Those aren't formations... They are just units.

I am not a huge fan of these "flowchart" things, but I don't quite see how they "rob players of army customization".

They haven't removed a single previous option or method to customize your army any way you see fit (incl, ... well ... unbound). It is simply (yet another) additional way to build your army. If you don't like it, don't use it. Nothing lost.

It's not really a flowchart. It's a list of units and formations, and then an alternative to the Combined Arms Deatchment (the Decurion).

I am jealous of new Necron players, this codex gives you so many viable angles to choose from that any one of them should work. The last codex was bland and under-powered in comparison, and this one makes Necrons so much tougher and more "The Terminator"-like.

 ionusx wrote:
The problem is that these formations are tied to the flow chart and can't be extracted. Your tied down to them unless you go back to traditional army building but then gw offers you no formations. It's flow charts of linearity or bust.

But you can take them out. The only ones which can't be are single unit formations which give no benefits and can be taken in a CAD as normal anyway.

Formations used to be a fun way of Lego setting your army. You could take a few units you wouldn't normally take; pop them into your army and bam cool new flavours like the reclusiam command squad or the forgotten knight. The idea behind army building in the first place was pick and choose what you want. And formations were a way of adding in unique elements to your army that could do cool things to make it even more awesome. Now it's follow this list.. Or be a joe average and that's a bit insulting.

They still are. The only difference is now you can take multiple formations in one detachment. That's a good thing from your perspective, surely. It's not like good armies are going to be hard to build without them (except maybe Necrons who gain a ton from the 4+ rp, whereas the 6" Eldar run is quite skippable IMO).

Imagine how this will work for marines. Its literally going to be taking the concept of unique army lists and standardizing them. What if I want formations on my cad? I now have to pay out the arm for them? No that's stupid. Dark Angels are going to be an absolute joke if they get this stupid flowchart of death should you follow it in any sort of way. And going cad is denying yourself special rules you could otherwise make use of (and let's be honest here in the next da book they need all the pickups you can stuff into their land raider if you catch my drift).

Why would they suffer from this? Every one of the detachments shown so far has been more powerful and fluffy, not less. If anything, DA need one of these to be competitive now.

Gw has painted themselves into a corner in my eyes with these foolish ideas you rob players of army customization which is something they ve puahed for whole editions now and only widend the gap between armies that need a total overhaul and those already well off.and penalized players for trying to have fun with their army lists.

You've just not read the rules. They've not restricted anything at all. What you now have is the old system to build armies, plus formations, or a chart which is pretty much guaranteed to make your competitive list also fluff accurate whilst preventing some of the more abusive combos. They are very good inventions IMO, and I much prefer them to CADs. I've always thought fluffy players should be rewarded, and now there's a system in place to do that.

The original poster has completely misinterpreted how the decurion and formations work. Nothing stop you taking both a CAD and formations. You can take nothing but formations. You can take a decurion and a CAD and formations if you have enough points. The only thing the new system has done is given an incentive to taking certain combinations of units.

I do wonder if Space Marines will get a Decurion. The CAD was said to be based on the organization of the Space Marines anyway. I don't remember where I read that though, it has been a while.

As to the Decurion formations, I like them so far. I just wish they had started it earlier, so that my Dark Eldar had one.

I believe from this point forward every codex will bring them.

At least for Tau they make a lot of sense.

It's gonna be hilarious seeing them try to fit Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines into a Decurion.

 Vector Strike wrote:
I believe from this point forward every codex will bring them.

At least for Tau they make a lot of sense.

You think so? You know there's going to be a mandatory Vespid squad, right?

 Vector Strike wrote:
I believe from this point forward every codex will bring them.

At least for Tau they make a lot of sense.

They should come out with a formation that gives troops 30" S5 AP5 Rapid Fire, and build from there.

Maybe Sniper troops???

I like the concept of formations. It’s the execution that bugs me. Classic GW by the way.

With the new warhost, a lot of it makes sense, but parts don’t. Like the mandatory viper tax on all three of the core guardian formations. The windriders I totally get, but the two foot ones? That’s just GW pushing kits. I’m not up on Necrons, but I suspect the tomb blades are similar to that.

I will field one crimson hunter, I wouldn’t be opposed to two in a larger game (If I owned more) buy now GW is dangling a carrot in front of me. Buy three and get awesome bonuses! Get that third falcon for zero risk precision deepstrike! They are promoting spammy play styles. I read the fluff section of the codex and there were a number of references to the Eldar liking the concept of three which I didn’t recall being there in the past.

I like the concept of formations rewarding a fluffy, but often a little sub-par build. But do solid units need that reward? I’m probably going to field 3 squads of aspect warriors. They’ve improved some of the weaker ones, and I think they are all quite playable these days. But with a little paperwork, suddenly they are all BS5 and get to re-roll most Ld tests. Why?

Formations, as implemented, are more of a tool to sell more models then to promote good game play. You see the cool bonuses and figure out what else you need to buy to get them.

Looking to the future, How would they make one for marines? The CAD already represents the SM very well, you can fit a whole battle company on one. What new kit will GW be pushing at the time? What old stock are they trying to move? How will units be broken up into packets/formations? I don’t see a lot of easy answers there. But I would not be surprised if we saw more Land Speeders or Dreadnoughts being required.

My guess for Space Marines? Formations! and Chapter Tactics! and Formations within the Chapter Tactcis!

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
I believe from this point forward every codex will bring them.

At least for Tau they make a lot of sense.

You think so? You know there's going to be a mandatory Vespid squad, right?

Let's hope they improve Vespids...

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
I believe from this point forward every codex will bring them.

At least for Tau they make a lot of sense.

You think so? You know there's going to be a mandatory Vespid squad, right?

Let's hope they improve Vespids...

Fact: 99% of Tau players don't own a single Vespid model.
Fact: Making Vespids OP would necessitate that Tau players owned Vespid models.
Fact: If you have nothing and need a lot, you buy more than if you have some and need a lot.
Fact: MONEY.

 Toofast wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
You can take a formation and a CAD. The only thing you can't take is the auxiliary stuff like the wraith constructs. In the eldar book for example nothing is stopping you from doing a CAD and wraith host, you just get the wraith host benefit but not the war host benefit. I use CAD because I play competitively and tax units are not worth the minor formation buff and loss of obsec. However if you're building a fluffy army there's no reason you can't take CAD + formation.

The tax is worth it if you can spam Jump Gargantuan Creatures with 36" D shots.

Spamming 300 point, 2 shot single models is not efficient, especially when you get no bonus for taking multiples like the ad lance provides. I doubt we will see more than 1 WK in 1850 tournament lists. 1 is needed for that big threat, any more and you're better off spending the points somewhere else.

I ran 4 in an 1850 list and completely stomped every opponent. and they are only 2 shots if you run them naked. I stacked on 2 Star cannons on each wraithknight which allowed me to whittle away infintry at range while i was blowing up their vehicles/high toughness models with D. The only thing that tied e up was necron wraiths and the C'tan which rolled his D weapon on the random C'Tan power chart and one shotted one of my knights on his first turn.

Remember when 40k and apoc were different games? I do, it was better.

 Crablezworth wrote:
Remember when 40k and apoc were different games? I do, it was better.

It was a lot easier to ignore it and keep it out of my enjoyable games back then.

I wouldn't have minded the formations and decurions, the S: D however is a bit much, my land raiders were poor enough as it was.

I imagine that the Astartes Decurion formations are basically going to replace chapter tactics.

Another possibility is the various Decurion formations representing "company specialties" instead, I.E. scout company formations, 1st company terminator formations etc.

 Purifier wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
Remember when 40k and apoc were different games? I do, it was better.

It was a lot easier to ignore it and keep it out of my enjoyable games back then.

Now it is more enjoyable for those of us who collected all the units from our army rather than just the ones that were played in the little version of 40k. D weapons just make sense. Distortion weapons being STR D even make sense from a fluff standpoint. Just because the IOM has been held back by their lack of technology doesn't mean the rest should be held back too. This is the future and weapons that just erase things from existance should exist and the distortion weapons fit that description. Why bring a knife to a knife fight when you can bring a gun instead and gain a clear advantage? before you say it is the honorable thing to do or some such line that isnt fair or balanced just remember that war is never fair or balanced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and if you say you'll just bring however many points to the fight over my not as many points, I have met very few people who have more points into a single army than I do.

 Xerics wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
Remember when 40k and apoc were different games? I do, it was better.

It was a lot easier to ignore it and keep it out of my enjoyable games back then.

Now it is more enjoyable for those of us who collected all the units from our army rather than just the ones that were played in the little version of 40k. D weapons just make sense. Distortion weapons being STR D even make sense from a fluff standpoint. Just because the IOM has been held back by their lack of technology doesn't mean the rest should be held back too. This is the future and weapons that just erase things from existance should exist and the distortion weapons fit that description. Why bring a knife to a knife fight when you can bring a gun instead and gain a clear advantage? before you say it is the honorable thing to do or some such line that isnt fair or balanced just remember that war is never fair or balanced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and if you say you'll just bring however many points to the fight over my not as many points, I have met very few people who have more points into a single army than I do.

So I'm guessing we should bring back vortex grenades that could be launched from standard IG grenade launchers, Maelstroms created by Chaos should be able to rip half the field away in a storm of chaos and daemons...

Let's put it this way, what you said could apply for every single army ingame, to paint it for one army alone is basically just admitting you want it only for yourself.

I really which they made 3 separate game systems. Skirmish/killteam level, normal 40k and apocalypse level (and Epic after thatt I suppose).

They could reuse the same models but I'm really really not keen on seeing apocalypse blasts and D spam in a normal game. Or titans and superheavies for that matter. You could pretty much lose in the first turn already. Now you could be spewing out several apocalypse blasts in 1000 points games. It's entirely possible to cover the other guys entire army....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You could end a kill team game on turn one...

I, for one, welcome this way of doing army building. IT gives players more choices, not the opposite. You have the CAD, you can add in formations, and then you can build your custom detachment, which you still customize with formations. I've played mostly Decurion out of sheer love for the fluff behind it and the feel of the army (It actually now feels like metallic robots relentlessly walking towards you).

So, it's not the end of the world. Just use a CAD and take a formation of your liking. Problem solved.