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 bitethythumb wrote:

sarcastro01 wrote:
But can I field 5 copies of Nagash in KoW like I can in AoS? My super creative narrative depends on it and it' not broken at all!

if you own only 5 nagash models and want to use them I say GO FOR IT... there is a really good scenario for one player you could play in the corner of your club whilst everyone else plays against someone else.

This kind of mentality seems to be what led us to AoS in the first place.

I call it the 'no one be a d*ck' mentality.

And I consider it absolutely ing toxic for a game.

The idea is the game isn't in charge of keeping things fair, you and your opponent are. If you feel your opponent does something unfair then the rules don't help you, you simply don't play that person. And that is ing stupid as people WILL be d*cks. It leaves you having a bad time and killing enthusiasm for the game.

It also encourages a bunch of really horrible situations, like when you don't get a game because the only other guy at the club/store looking for a game is someone you don't want to play. What if you don't think bringing a pair of bloodthirsters is wrong but your opponent sees you put them on the table and decides you aren't playing fair and decides he doesn't want to play you.

That kind of gak is how you get poor communities where people are excluded or chased off by people who should be excluded. Alternatively you can have the game rules do their job and keep things fair so that when a d*ck does show up he can't ruin everyone else's fun.

I think it is unfair to say KoW is there to appeal to the people who are unhappy with fantasy.

Rather it was a ruleset made to appeal to the game designers who made fantasy but didn't like what GW twisted it into.

So you're all saying I can bring my KoW models to play AoS at an official GW event in a GW store?

 bitethythumb wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
So you're all saying I can bring my KoW models to play AoS at an official GW event in a GW store?

nope... Gw has strict preference on using's its own models, as the leading manufacturers in miniatures and the only company with world wide stores it needs to maintain its upper hand in the market, its very stupid as a business model to let you use models from other competitors... Unless you play at a none gw store tournament in a nine gw store where they so not care... But this has nothing to do with AoS and everything to do with GW

None of that matters to me, the consumer.

KoW allowing other companies models does open up options, regardless of personal opinion on which models are better.

It is a point for KoW/against AoS that you can use other companies models.


Going off on a tangent too, are GW the leading miniature manufacturer? I'd have thought it would be someone like Reaper, Bandai or Tamiya. And the point about GW having worldwide stores is hilarious, as those stores are costing more than half their yearly revenue to keep open. Other companies are simply working with FLGSs, which helps small businesses and the local communities. That is good for the customers.

A quick google suggested Tamiya only made 80 million Euro in 2014, so definitely lagging behind GW there but they have been around since 1946 according to Wikipedia and you can by their stuff in a lot of toy stores, giving them a much broader distribution network than GW.


Sorry that's probably really off topic, but I adamantly stand by my point that GWs reasoning for doing something (like banning 3rd party models) is completely irrelevant if that thing potentially detracts from someone's hobby experience (like banning 3rd party models).
And that it being GWs policy does impact AoS, since any GW policy is enforced on any GW game in a GW controlled environment regardless of if it is an AoS policy or not..

 MWHistorian wrote:
"Play both games and see what you like."
"You're clearly anti-GW."

Did I miss something?
:/

Apparently the most recent AoS fanclub meeting. A shame too, the cool aid was apparently delicious.



**Note: the above is a joke, not an attack on anyone or any games they might like, I apologize in advance for any offence I may cause.**

 455_PWR wrote:
There is not one completely positive thread on dakka for aos because of the naysayers

I know right, it's almost like people have opinions and are entitled to share them here on Dakka. As I said above, it was a joke, I'm sorry if you took offence at it.


And irrelevant of how many people play in their FLGS it is still official GW policy not to use 3rd party minis. There are a great deal of people this rule will not effect, but there are some it will and it is a point against AoS because of that.

Again, you can give a perfectly good explanation as to why GW have that policy in place, but it is still a policy that is bad for us, the customers.

Quality of the models themselves is a purely subjective thing. Personally I think a lot of Mantic's range looks a lot better than the Sigmarines.

Regardless, if you prefer GW minis then you are entirely welcome to use them in KoW. The opposite is not true.

Seaguard start at 20 man in KoW, but using them as spearmen they are 170 points.
Swordmasters and white lions kinda fill the same role and would both be counted as palace guard, at 105 points each.
The 5 reavers are 145.
The mage starts at 75 but has extra spells that can be bought, for +45, +30, +10 and +15.
Griffons don't appear to be a thing but you can use the dragon rules for them easy enough so that's 310.

All up that's a 1000 point list if you add an item or two to the lord and a spell or two to the mage. The game supposedly doesn't work the best under 1000, but 1000-2000 is a solid, if on the smaller side, game.

RoperPG wrote:
People are implying GW are somehow ethically corrupt for wanting people to use GW minis to play GW games in GW stores and events

No, they are ethically corrupt for trying to IP bully 3rd party manufacturers out of business by claiming they own the rights to use Roman Numberals or arrows on models. Not allowing people to use other models is simply a policy that is restrictive to us, the consumers, and therefore bad.

RoperPG wrote:
Mantic aren't even trying to hide the fact they are in a massive grab for disillusioned WFB players right now.

Of course they are, they are the people who made Warhammer Fantasy originally and WHFB is now dead. KoW is in every sense it's spiritual successor and they are running with that.

RoperPG wrote:
Enforcing any kind of 'Mantic minis only' rule would sabotage that.
It's not philanthropic, it's as entirely bottom-line driven as any accusation levelled at GW's attitudes.

Regardless of what the reasoning behind it is (and I would argue the reason is because Mantic is a company run by hobbyist and gamers for hobbyists and gamers, rather than a company of accountants run for shareholders) it is a policy that allows a lot of freedom for us, the consumers, and is therefore good.

Smellingsalts wrote:
Kings of War is a blatant rip off of Warhammer Fantasy Battle...

Holy

Ok, I'd like to say this only once so let me be super clear about it.

Kings of War was designed, developed, and written by the same people that made Warhammer Fantasy Battles into what it was.

Smellingsalts wrote:
It has a few rules changes that speed up play, but you sacrifice a great deal of depth

Complexity =/= depth. This is is a damn good thing, the game is nowhere near as slow and bloated as 8th ed was.

Smellingsalts wrote:
The background to KOW is really sad.

Your subjective opinion, don't state it as a fact.

Smellingsalts wrote:
Every new release by Mantic is crowd funded which shows that they do not have the capacity to manufacture things when they want or need to.

No it doesn't. Not at all. They ARE manufacturing the things they want and need quicker because of it.

Smellingsalts wrote:
The models for KOW are terrible.

Again, opinion. GW has some real crap too.

Smellingsalts wrote:
Just about no one I know uses them, so you end up using GW models to play.

Somehting you are allowed to do even in official events because Mantic don't see us, the customers, as walking wallets who's favourite part of the hobby is handing them out money.

Smellingsalts wrote:
So when you have a company whose models are god awful, who can't design anything on their own, who can't write or produce beautiful books, who's background is copied from a game that is no longer being developed (there won't be anything new for them to steal), who has to use crowd funding to produce anything, I just don't see a future for KOW.

And yet there must be one because the US masters voted almost unanimously across their 8 regions to switch to it rather than stay with 8th or move to AoS.

Smellingsalts wrote:
Since they aren't the flgs target market, stores will end up supporting AOS because it will bring new blood, new players, and sales. KOW won't.

Maybe, but KoW seems to be a game that is currently growing, GW are currently shrinking so AoS has an uphill battle if it is going to actually bring in new customers in the long term, because right now even 40k can't.

If you're comparing KoW to AoS fluff be fair and compare it to AoS fluff, not WHFB fluff.

KoW has better elf fluff imo because GW won't tell me crap all about my elves in AoS, the fluff just keeps following the sigmarines around.

But GW did make very sure to explain to us all that AoS is not WHFB 9th edition. It is a whole new game.

It also picks up right where WHFB left off... then skips over a few thousand years doesn't it? In which time anything that might have resembled the Old World is torn down and trampled into dust. As it stands in AoS the Fantasy world might as well be a myth, it and none of the attached fluff to it have any relevance in AoS other than being a quick origin story for some of the gods.

In AoS fluff are Dark Elves led by their bitter King in raids across the ocean and attempt to invade the High Elf homeland?

Do the High Elves have their own island in the middle of the ocean where they are containing the winds of magic?

Is there an empire of humans holding itself together despite corruption and cowardice through the sheer determination and courage of a few great leaders?

Is there a knightly nation of nobles who refuse to adopt modern military tactics because heavy cav charges are cool?

Is Kislev a thing? Tilea?

So very little of the Old World remains, it doesn't matter that the fluff is technically continuing on from the Old World, we are not playing there and it is different.



As for the argument that you can play the battle for Skull pass in AoS, you can do so with KoW rules too

You seem to be fundamentally missing the difference between a couple of years timeskip continuing directly off the same plot points with the same characters and a couple of thousand years timeskips with a new main character (Sigmar was not an active player in WHFB) and a few other characters still along for the ride (but overall only a fraction of the ones that existed).

Because AoS doesn't get to piggy back off the success of WHFB's fluff after having just destroyed it all.

TrollSlayerThorak'Khun'Na wrote:
When starting a new universe I'm not surprised they began with a very macro view. We've got all the time in the world to get into the micro with individual army books/fluff books/Black Library.

Personally I think it is the dumbest thing they could have done in regards to fluff short of not including any.

When releasing a new game with a new setting the very first thing you should be trying to do is give people an overview of the setting to draw them in. Instead, as another poster pointed out, you have people like me disinterested because I have no idea if my dark elves exist anymore, all I know is that they are being sold as a force of order, and that worries me.

Does end times explain somewhere if the Dark Elves exist within the magical realms of Age of Sigmar?

Meowstalker wrote:
If you want official word... just wait then.

That's what I keep getting told by GW employees if I ask about them.

That is a TERRIBLE way to do business.



Seriously, the other stuff you just said is literally three or four sentences more than I have gotten out of any official GW representative's mouth. I might have known that myself if I bought the books, but when people just tell me to wait and see what else gets released i have 0 incentive to buy anything

I dunno, I've had redshirts try to tell me that that is worse than death and all but it feels more like bad writing to me.

Not.. you know... bad bad but saturday morning cartoon kinda bad. 'Immature' bad I suppose.

 Swastakowey wrote:

Meowstalker wrote:

Such dumb writing.

You read any AOS book?

You know when you read the blurbs on the back of books and DvDs? And they say things like "Sigmar learns that weapons are for war" or "Sigmarine fears losing a little bit of himself when he dies for 18th time" and you think to yourself... "hmmm, not really what I want to waste my time on... this?"

So no I have not wasted time on these books.

Yeah I have to agree here. It may well be written better, but from all I have heard I am not going to spend time or money seeing for myself.

It just doesn't seem worth it.

Rihgu wrote:
This is a trope that has been used everywhere, from Superman and Batman and all sorts of comic books, to anime, and even mythology.

The protagonist must choose between winning the easy way and losing a part of himself (Batman or Superman could, for instance, just kill their arch-nemeses and be done with it), or do it the hard way, retaining yourself while also being victorious (sending their enemies to Arkham or space or whatever)

Sigmar represents the Good Guy, and Good Guys don't do the kind of thing like steal individuality, etc. Good Guys don't use mindless drones.

Imagine Sigmar standing over the forge, about to strip the last bit of thought and personality from a Sigmarine. Suddenly, Robin bursts into the room, "No! Sigmar! Don't do this! If you take away all of that warrior's humanity, you're no better than Lex Luthor!". Sigmar pauses (in a comic book, there would be about 4 panels of narrator box describing Sigmar's internal conflict) before resolving himself to win the "right" way - with warriors, not drones.

I can't remember the specific trope "name", but it's a variation of this one: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IfYouKillHimYouWillBeJustLikeHim and this one http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeWhoFightsMonsters

That's a fair explanation but if true then the setting has clearly lost a lot of the darkness and shady morality that made WHFB different from your more typical fantasy world.

I would never expect a GW character, across any of their settings, to choose the morally right path over victory. That's kinda what defines their settings.


I also have to agree that given how samey the sigmarines already seem going the extra step further seems like no big deal and an army of emotionless superhumans is probably the ideal fighting force.

I highly doubt we will ever see a Stormcast outside of their armour. They seem very deliberately designed to me to mimic humanity, not to be a part of it. Sculpted faces on the helmets makes them look human, but at the same time you can see they are sculpted, those are not the sigmarines' faces, they are a mimicry or a parody.

If we look at Space Marines GW give you the option for helmet less with every squad leader and every officer. Most of the important characters are helmet less by default and would need to be converted to add a helmet.

We have seen unit leaders, characters, officers and even the leader of the sigmarines all only with the option for helmets though haven't we?

Where could GW add the helmet less option now?

See, that just feels like a 12 year old's attempt at being dark to go along with the 12 year old's attempt at being deep with the sigmarines death thing.

GW just feel like they are at a point were they don't know if they are parodying themselves anymore. There was some good old goofy stuff in the fluff, and some stuff taken super seriously, and I don't think the current writers know what of the old stuff was serious and what was lighthearted tongue in cheek.

Meowstalker wrote:You should read the lore yourself, not reading the pieces on forum and twisting into your flavor.

Stormcast lose part of their soul every time after reforge, change in personality, memory... etc, are nothing but side effect. The truth is Stormcast ain't Eternal, they will die eventually(or instantly). However, you focus on the side effect of reforge but not the true matter, Stormcast are nothing but expendable wardog. I know that sound like Space Marine, but Stormcast live under the illusion of Eternal.

The fluff of Old World is so rich and fun to read, in different style.

See:

jonolikespie wrote:
Yeah I have to agree here. It may well be written better, but from all I have heard I am not going to spend time or money seeing for myself.

It just doesn't seem worth it.

It just don't excite me or interest me enough to spend $20 to find out if it is good. If Abbnett wrote one I'd probably give it a try but AoS just is doing nothing to entice me right now.

Meowstalker wrote:
Everyone can express their opinion on internet, but not twist other comment into their flavor? Whining every(almost) thread about their opinion, turn the forum into 3 month of whinefest? it is f**king damage to the community.

And you know what, you're right, that is our right to do so if we want to.

We are giving opinions on the game.

If you think we are breaking rules, please use the report button, the mods are very good on this forum and will clean up anything that should not be here. But other than that your opinion that people criticizing AoS is bad is no more valid than the opinion that AoS is bad. If so many people are criticizing AoS that it is turning away new players and damaging real gaming communities then maybe you need to ask yourself why so many people dislike it.


I'd just like to point out though that you are accusing others of twisting comments in their favour, but it was you who posted:

>>Posts on warseer/dakka asking a question
>>F**KING ********S OUT OF NO WHERE "S**T GAME" "F**KING GW SHILL" "IDIOT FOR PLAYING"

No one is insulting you for liking the game. If you see that, report it.

 Mymearan wrote:
I have yet to see AoS fans go to the KoW forum to crap on that game from their high horses.

Read the title of this thread.

This discussion has been from the start EXACTLY the place for someone to criticize AoS in favour of KoW.

As for 'damaging the community', I can't help but think dismissing other posters opinions is more damaging, at least to dakka itself. I really enjoy dakka, I think it has great moderators and a solid community BECAUSE diverse opinions are allowed. I would never want that to change.