Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Does the Dark Angel codex say that we're only limited to one relic per character? As far as I know there isn't a limitation but just in case I'm misinterpreting it I just want to be sure.

It's contentious. Page 97 (the wargear list) states that "A model may replace one weapon with one of the following:" (emphasis mine). This leaves us with three options:
1) Only one relic can be taken by each character.
2) Only one weapon relic (i.e. one that replaces a weapon) can be taken by each character, plus any number that do not replace weapons (The Eye or the Shroud).
3) We try and invoke the "and/or" clause from page 96 (Datasheets - Options) even though the entry doesn't say and/or to buy any number of weapon relics.

Personally, I doubt it's (3), I'm not going to argue with anyone doing (2), but personally I'm going with (1) until we get some clarification (i.e. never).

If yoiu take two relics, have you taken one?

You can replace one weapon, but to relics does not replace weapons, so I'm going with 3 relics max.

nosferatu1001 wrote:If yoiu take two relics, have you taken one?

No, but that is not entirely the actual question or requirement.

Quanar wrote:"A model may replace one weapon with one of the following:"

This statement, assuming accurate, only has any limitation based on the number of Weapons being replaced and says nothing more. I assume that, much like Codex Marines, there are some that do not replace a Weapon? If so, then,

Quanar wrote:1) Only one relic can be taken by each character.

Is not an express limit for taking a Relic that does not replace a Weapon. At worst, it doesn't leave an avenue for purchasing a non-replacing Relic, actually.

Quanar wrote:2) Only one weapon relic (i.e. one that replaces a weapon) can be taken by each character, plus any number that do not replace weapons (The Eye or the Shroud).

Is the most sensible since this allows the purchase of non-replacing Relics, and there is no limit or other requirement listed.

Quanar wrote:3) We try and invoke the "and/or" clause from page 96 (Datasheets - Options) even though the entry doesn't say and/or to buy any number of weapon relics.

If "one weapon" is accurate, it's far more hard defined than Codex Marines "a weapon" and the "and/or" clause is not in use nor even a question. So, only one replacing Relic would qualify.

I do note that my LGS did run with the "a weapon" is more free than "one weapon" and allowed for Codex Marines to have Shield Eternal and Blinding Blade. I do not agree with this, just noting it.

Charistoph wrote:

Quanar wrote:"A model may replace one weapon with one of the following:"

This statement, assuming accurate, only has any limitation based on the number of Weapons being replaced and says nothing more. I assume that, much like Codex Marines, there are some that do not replace a Weapon?

Direct quote, only added the underlining. The list of three interpretations are just what I understand to be the three arguments normally made in threads about the question.

Charistoph wrote:
I do note that my LGS did run with the "a weapon" is more free than "one weapon" and allowed for Codex Marines to have Shield Eternal and Blinding Blade. I do not agree with this, just noting it.

So you disagree with my (1), stating it's (2), but then not agreeing with (2) when applied to the Space Marine Codex? Is the wording significantly different then?

If you do not replace a weapon, do you have permission to take a relic?

 Quanar wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Quanar wrote:"A model may replace one weapon with one of the following:"

This statement, assuming accurate, only has any limitation based on the number of Weapons being replaced and says nothing more. I assume that, much like Codex Marines, there are some that do not replace a Weapon?

Direct quote, only added the underlining. The list of three interpretations are just what I understand to be the three arguments normally made in threads about the question.

I was not trying to be dismissive of your quotes, just indirectly noting that I cannot independently confirm your quote. I have had people misquote for evidence on several occasions, and so covering my response more than anything else.

I was actually more supporting your claims and using them to respond to nosferatu1001 than anything else.

 Quanar wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
I do note that my LGS did run with the "a weapon" is more free than "one weapon" and allowed for Codex Marines to have Shield Eternal and Blinding Blade. I do not agree with this, just noting it.

So you disagree with my (1), stating it's (2), but then not agreeing with (2) when applied to the Space Marine Codex? Is the wording significantly different then?

Quite the opposite. I do not agree with my LGS' interpretation that "a weapon" allows for one to replace "a weapon" and then replace "a weapon" again, and thus gaining two replacing Relics (Shield Eternal replaced a Weapon). In point of fact, I was more agreeing that (2) is applicable in both DAngel and Codex cases.

Charistoph wrote:
replacing Relics (Shield Eternal replaced a Weapon).

Ah, this was where I got confused, assumed the Shield didn't replace a weapon.

Charistoph wrote:

Quanar wrote:"A model may replace one weapon with one of the following:"

This statement, assuming accurate, only has any limitation based on the number of Weapons being replaced and says nothing more. I assume that, much like Codex Marines, there are some that do not replace a Weapon? If so, then,

Quanar wrote:1) Only one relic can be taken by each character.

Is not an express limit for taking a Relic that does not replace a Weapon. At worst, it doesn't leave an avenue for purchasing a non-replacing Relic, actually.

This is correct. That line does not limit the number of relics per model it just says "change 1 weapon for 1 relic" just like space marine sgt's can replace the chainsword with a pistol and the bolter with a pistol to get gunslinger. As a space marine character has a bolt pistol and a chainsword. 2 weapons can be replaced 1 at a time with other relics. In addition to relics that do not replace weapons.

If we apply the rule as meaning 1 relic only then those space marine sgts with powerfists and combi-bolters are no longer possible as some of those choices also say replace one ranged weapon with X.

effreem wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Quanar wrote:"A model may replace one weapon with one of the following:"

This statement, assuming accurate, only has any limitation based on the number of Weapons being replaced and says nothing more. I assume that, much like Codex Marines, there are some that do not replace a Weapon? If so, then,

Quanar wrote:1) Only one relic can be taken by each character.

Is not an express limit for taking a Relic that does not replace a Weapon. At worst, it doesn't leave an avenue for purchasing a non-replacing Relic, actually.

This is correct. That line does not limit the number of relics per model it just says "change 1 weapon for 1 relic" just like space marine sgt's can replace the chainsword with a pistol and the bolter with a pistol to get gunslinger. As a space marine character has a bolt pistol and a chainsword. 2 weapons can be replaced 1 at a time with other relics. In addition to relics that do not replace weapons.

If we apply the rule as meaning 1 relic only then those space marine sgts with powerfists and combi-bolters are no longer possible as some of those choices also say replace one ranged weapon with X.

You seem to have missed where the Ranged Weapon and Melee Weapons list say "boltgun, bolt pistol and/or Melee weapon". Which as the codex tells us means you can trade, one, or the other, or both (or all three if a model comes with all three).

 Happyjew wrote:

effreem wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Quanar wrote:"A model may replace one weapon with one of the following:"

This statement, assuming accurate, only has any limitation based on the number of Weapons being replaced and says nothing more. I assume that, much like Codex Marines, there are some that do not replace a Weapon? If so, then,

Quanar wrote:1) Only one relic can be taken by each character.

Is not an express limit for taking a Relic that does not replace a Weapon. At worst, it doesn't leave an avenue for purchasing a non-replacing Relic, actually.

This is correct. That line does not limit the number of relics per model it just says "change 1 weapon for 1 relic" just like space marine sgt's can replace the chainsword with a pistol and the bolter with a pistol to get gunslinger. As a space marine character has a bolt pistol and a chainsword. 2 weapons can be replaced 1 at a time with other relics. In addition to relics that do not replace weapons.

If we apply the rule as meaning 1 relic only then those space marine sgts with powerfists and combi-bolters are no longer possible as some of those choices also say replace one ranged weapon with X.

You seem to have missed where the Ranged Weapon and Melee Weapons list say "boltgun, bolt pistol and/or Melee weapon". Which as the codex tells us means you can trade, one, or the other, or both (or all three if a model comes with all three).

Does the codex actually tell us...

"codex tells us means you can trade, one, or the other, or both (or all three if a model comes with all three"

EDIT: Does that mean it can be done multiple times? If you have a bolt pistol, can you replace it with a XXX and still replace your chainsword with XXX?

If so, then I see no reason not to allow the 1 weapon for 1 relic multiple times. Its essentially saying the same thing.

P.S. Sorry Ghaz, ninja edited on you. :(

Yes it does. Check out where they explain the components of a Datasheet, particularly point 13 'Options'.

 Ghaz wrote:
Yes it does. Check out where they explain the components of a Datasheet, particularly point 13 'Options'.

Options is number 11 in the DA Codex, before someone gets confused (presume Ghaz is referencing the SM codex, wonder what the other two are...), this is where they explain the "and/or" terminology, which is what gives the sergeant to make more than one swap.

Nope. Codex Dark Angels (ePub edition).

1. Faction
2. Battlefield Role
3. Points Cost
4. Unit Name
5. Unit Profile
6. Unit Type
7. Unit Composition
8. Wargear
9. Warlord Traits
10. Special Rules
11. Relics of Caliban
12. Unit Description
13. Options

That's... bizarre. Print copy is:
1. Faction
2. Battlefield Role.
3. Unit Name.
4. Unit Description.
5. Points Cost
6. Unit Profile
7. Unit Type
8. Unit Composition
9. Wargear
10. Special Rules
11. Options
12. Warlord Traits
13. Relics of Caliban

Why would they order it differently? Why wasn't it just a copy & paste job? My mind is boggled!

We're talking about Games Workshop. Nothing they do boggles my mind any more, unless it make sense

EDIT: It could be due to formatting. It refers to three different datasheet illustrations. 1 through 10 on the first illustration, 11 and 12 on the second illustration and 13 on the last illustration.

I read replace one weapon with one if the following as replacing one of my weapons per selection, 2 weapons can be replaced with 2 relics, as I've replaced one weapon for one weapon, then replaced one other weapon for one other weapon.

Just the way I see it.

That would be "Replace a weapon..." or "Replace any weapon..." One still means one.

G'day battle brethren

I've got my DA codex in front of me, not sure if my interpretation is correct being a noob again and still getting my head around all the rules and such, but on the 'relics of caliban' page (p155/also says on the wargear page) it says "Only one of each of the following relics may be chosen per army"

However none of the named characters options allow them to take them, guessing it's because they already have their own relic of caliban, and no options, on their data sheets?, but for the libby/termy libby, interrogator-chaplain (not regular chappy) and chapter master/termy chapter master it says "May take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Relics of Caliban lists"

I'm not sure if I missed something along the way, but to me it seems any of the above mentioned that are allowed to take them can, hypothetically, take any/all if they wanted to spend the points.

Again this could just be misinterpretation on my behalf though as I'm still learning but I haven't come across anything personally to say otherwise

Only one of each relic may be taken per army. A model may replace one weapon with one of the following:
- Relics of Caliban, war-gear list

While very annoying to have the Rules are split up over multiple locations, the Restriction in question is found in the list of prices.

My bad haha I missed that bit...I'll blame tired eyes for that one


Automatically Appended Next Post:
These rules would be a lot easier to work out if they weren't scattered all over the place, or at least mentioned in both sections, I have only played one game...against myself...just to give it a crack so haven't really taken notice of the relics yet just thought I'd chime in since the book was in front of me at the time

Well I don't know about dark angels but imperial knight basic cad only allows one relic but 2 formation allow all to be taken. One of which allows one knight to take as many as you want.

 Ghaz wrote:
That would be "Replace a weapon..." or "Replace any weapon..." One still means one.

I have followed the rule, I have replaced one weapon with one weapon, sorry but I don't see a limitation on replacing one other weapon with one other weapon, if it said "you may only take one relic per character, it replaces a single weapon" I'd agree with you.

Just how I play it.

No you have not. You have replaced more than one weapon. One plus one does not equal one.

 Ghaz wrote:
No you have not. You have replaced more than one weapon. One plus one does not equal one.

I have replaced one with one, a chainsword for a mace, that's one for one, I have replaced a bolt pistol for lions roar, one for one, again I see no limitation, can you cite it or is it just your opinion?

I understand this isn't how you play it, but it's how we play it here, your house rule is no different from ours, you come here, you play it our way, I go to yours, I play it your way.

No. You have replaced two for two. Just because you're claiming that you're doing it one at a time doesn't make one plus one equal one.

 Formosa wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
No you have not. You have replaced more than one weapon. One plus one does not equal one.

I have replaced one with one, a chainsword for a mace, that's one for one, I have replaced a bolt pistol for lions roar, one for one, again I see no limitation, can you cite it or is it just your opinion?

I understand this isn't how you play it, but it's how we play it here, your house rule is no different from ours, you come here, you play it our way, I go to yours, I play it your way.

So you play it where I can have 6 storm bolters added to any of my vehicles(provided I pay the 30 points)?

"You can take up to one each of any of the following" I use you method to revisit that list 6 times paying for a storm bolter each time and have 7 total storm bolters on my BA rhino.

Or better yet, from the Tactical Squad entry in Codex Space Marines:

If the squad numbers less than ten models, one Space Marine may take one item from either the Special Weapons or Heavy Weapons list.

So a nine man Tactical Squad can have nine Lascannons (or any combination of special and/or heavy weapons)?

After some thought I would agree with Ghaz, only one weapon would be allowed to be traded, but you could take the eye of the unseen and the shroud of heroes aswell as they don't replace one of the characters weapons, correct?