ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**d-usa**

There seems to be a lot of repeating of history. Students used to walk out because they had to share facilities with other races, or shut down public services because of desegregation. We got through it then, we will get through it now.

**d-usa**

Ignorance and/or fear of something different is the same no matter what you are ignorant and/or fearful about.

**d-usa**

If people are running through the restroom with their genitals hanging out you have bigger problems then what those genitals actually are.

**d-usa**

And the story is about a restroom as she already dropped gym.

**d-usa**

Grey Templar wrote:
SilverMK2 wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
I'm well aware of that. I can still think its wrong.

Glad to see you can see the evidence, ignore it and spout rubbish all at the same time. If you keep on believing maybe one day it will be true!!!!1111pi.

Evidence doesn't make something right or wrong. I think you are a little confused.

This one sentence explains so much.

**d-usa**

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
Respect and decency should be a two way street. Unfortunately certain members of the victim class don't see it that way. No compromise is acceptable. You must accept everything about me on my terms or you are a bad person to be crushed.

So hundreds must be violated in their most private and vulnerable moments to make one a bit happier. Reasonable compromise in the form of providing an additional neutral environment available to all is unacceptable, and to propose the same is to expose one's self as a monster. All must conform in thought, word and deed. Those who do not should be second class citizens at best.

Pretending that "you are not a girl, now go to the restroom for 'things'" is a compromise is an interesting tactic.

**d-usa**

I think a third room should be an option, but it should not be mandatory IMO and then you can still end up with fights about who goes to the third bathroom as well.

I also agree that there are lots of grey areas. Do you take everyone that declares as x/y at face value? Do you start when people start to transition (although not all people choose to transition)? Do you go by when people are diagnosed (do trans people get diagnosed with gender identity disorder)? Do you go by surgery, which would exclude minors?

I do think that court is going to be the best way to resolve instead of having thousands of districts make up their own rules.

**d-usa**

You probably shouldn't begin to talk about science if your posts is making it pretty clear that you don't have a knowledge base regarding the issue.

**d-usa**

Grey Templar wrote:
Do you deny that, no matter how many hormone treatments someone has, no matter how much flesh is snipped, tucked, or sewn on, that person will always at the basic core of their genes, be what they were born as?

There is no need to deny that since I'm not pretending that a quick peek at their crotch lets me know what they are genetically born as.

**d-usa**

TheMeanDM wrote:
So genetics is not good enough of a science for you?

Are you simply trolling....?

Mmmm kay...tell that to your chromosomes.

Just because you either don't understand the science or don't know the science doesn't mean that I am trolling. It simply means that you are ignorant on the subject, which can be fixed with education if one is willing to pursue the knowledge about a particular subject.

**d-usa**

Howard A Treesong wrote:
Sometimes peoples genetics are gender ambiguous what with chromosomal abnormalities.

Gender reassignment is about altering the physical body to match the mind. The alternative is to alter the mind to match the physical body. Why is it that some feel the need to point out that when altering the body you are changing it from something genetically determined? Surely you could say the same about altering the mind. Or is it easier to forget the role of genetics in forming the mind there because it's not a physical attribute?

But that aside people change things about themselves all the time to make them something their genetics are not. Some people due their hair. My genetics have made me short sighted but I'm going to correct my vision with glasses rather than choose to hold things much closer to my face to see them, as by genetics seems to have determined I don't need to see more than 6 inches away.

Good post.

I think it may also help that there are two separate issues in the story here.

One is that people need to come to grips with their ignorance in what gender is and how genetics affects more then just the part between your legs and that gender, as developed due to your genetics, is not binary and that trans individuals are not just boys/girls acting like girls/boys the same way one might decide to be goth or any other phase that they are going through.

Separate from accepting that being transgender is a real thing, people then need to learn how to deal with the fact that transgender people exist and society will have to learn to adapt to one another.

**d-usa**

TheMeanDM wrote:
http://www.britannica.com/science/hermaphroditism

There are only a very limited # of true hermaphroditic human beings.

There are pseudo-hermaphrodites.

"Such conditions are extremely rare in humans. In true gonadal intersex (or true hermaphroditism), an individual has both ovarian and testicular tissue. The ovarian and testicular tissue may be separate, or the two may be combined in what is called an ovotestis. Affected individuals have sex chromosomes showing male-female mosaicism (where one individual possesses both the male XY and female XX chromosome pairs). Most often, but not always, the chromosome complement is 46,XX, and in every such individual there also exists evidence of Y chromosomal material on one of the autosomes (any of the 22 pairs of chromosomes other than the sex chromosomes). Individuals with a 46,XX chromosome complement usually have ambiguous external genitalia with a sizable phallus and are therefore often reared as males. However, they develop breasts during puberty and menstruate and in only rare cases actually produce sperm. In 46,XX intersex (female pseudohermaphroditism), individuals have male external genitalia but the chromosomal constitution and reproductive organs of a female. In 46,XY (male pseudohermaphroditism), individuals have ambiguous or female external genitalia but the chromosomal constitution and reproductive organs of a male, though the testes may be malformed or absent."

Just to clarify: true hermaphrodites have equally developed and equally functioning sexual organs.

Only one place I saw gave an estimated % of "true" hermaphroditic humans, and that was less than 10%....that is..... less than 10% of patients that have some kind of extra dangly bits....which is already extremely rare.

So we are talking the rarest of the already rare.

Good think that hermaphrodite doesn't equal transgender.

**d-usa**

TheMeanDM wrote:
[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - ALPHARIUS]

So much rage, hormones doing okay?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

agnosto wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
You know that most public high schools don't actually have, like, active showers and the sort, right?

I mean, there's... not group-nudity involved in schools these days, hasn't been for like 40 years.

You don't know much about high schools then or how old they are it the concept of a locker room. I'm sure there are rich schools with separate changing areas for each individual but none that I'm aware of in my state.

This particular case deals with a restroom though, not a locker room. She dropped gym to avoid the locker room issue.

**d-usa**

TheMeanDM wrote:
I graduated in 92 and we showered after gym class. *shrug*

Rage....bwahaha..aren't you cute :-D

Automatically Appended Next Post:

d-usa wrote:

This particular case deals with a restroom though, not a locker room. She dropped gym to avoid the locker room issue.

Did you read the article?

" Over 150 Missouri high school students voiced their displeasure about a transgender teen using the girls’ locker room by walking out of class.

Students at Hillsboro High School staged a two-hour walkout Monday over 17-year-old Lila Perry, a student who has identified as a female since she was 13, using the girls’ locker room during gym class.

The school offered Perry a gender-neutral bathroom, which she turned down. "

It's the last sentence:

Lila has dropped out of gym class for safety concerns, but she still plans on using the girl’s bathroom.

**d-usa**

Breotan wrote:
Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
If there is any "pretending" going on it is by the person with a penis saying he is a girl.

I must admit that this pretty much sums up my opinion. You want to use the girls locker room? Go post-op or GTFO. Otherwise it's sexual harassment pure and simple.

Someone get this published in a peer reviewed journal, we just canceled out decades of scientific research!

**d-usa**

Crablezworth wrote:
d-usa wrote:
Breotan wrote:
Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
If there is any "pretending" going on it is by the person with a penis saying he is a girl.

I must admit that this pretty much sums up my opinion. You want to use the girls locker room? Go post-op or GTFO. Otherwise it's sexual harassment pure and simple.

Someone get this published in a peer reviewed journal, we just canceled out decades of scientific research!

What are your thoughts on those who identify as gender fluid or gender queer?

as defined by google:
having an overlap of, or indefinite lines between, gender identity; having two or more genders (being bigender, trigender, or pangender); having no gender (being agender, nongendered, genderless, genderfree or neutrois); moving between genders or having a fluctuating gender identity (genderfluid); or.

My thought, based on my understanding of the research that I have been exposed to, is that while there may well be people who "choose" to be gender fluid for various reasons, the majority of people who identify as a gender other than the one represented by their external sex characteristics do so because of hormonal and genetic differences leading their brain to have an identify that is different from the gender they express. There are many factors that result in separate gender development in different parts of the body which cause a person to look like a certain gender but who has a brain that really does not match up with that gender. Those people do not choose to be a different gender anymore than a person chooses to have depression. It is not a mental illness by any means, it's just a case where the brain does not match the body.

And while I am guilty of mixing the two issues at times in this thread myself, I do think that we would make progress if people could at least accept that being transgender is actually a real thing with a biological cause even if we disagree on how the school and other parts of society should deal with it.

**d-usa**

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
@D-usa
What are you even saying? All I got from that was "yeah, no 'cause science". What exactly are you claiming science says? And what specifically is wrong about whatever thought it is that you disagree with.

See above.

There are two issues that I disagree with.

One is the "well, unless you cut of your penis you are a guy" mindset and the possible related "transgender isn't a thing" issue. There is a definite biological cause of the brain not matching up to the body and no matter how we feel about how they look or, nothing will make the brain feel different.

The other is how we should deal with transgender people as a society (as in should they be able to shower and participate in things with other members of the gender that they identify as).

**d-usa**

Crablezworth wrote:
d-usa wrote:
they be able to shower and participate in things with other members of the gender that they identify as).

The gender they identify as, today...

Like I said, while there may well be some individuals who are a "girl" today as much as they are a "goth" today or a lifelong fan of "insert random crappy band" today the vast majority identify as their gender for the same reason that you identify as yours. A combination of their physical appearance together with their lifelong exposure to hormones produced by their body due to genetics as well as the body of their mother (with some research even pointing to hormone levels at the time that sperm are produced having an impact) and maybe even environmental hormones all of which have acted on their brain and body to cause a person to form that particular identity.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheMeanDM wrote:
I am of the"separate but equal" camp opinion in this matter.

It protects all parties.

The TG student avoids opportunities for additional harassment, for example. Do you recall what it was like as a teen boy in the locker rooms....towel snapping...for example...lol.

It also protects other students from being forced to observe genitalia that they do not want to see.

On the other hand the student that just moved into the school district, who due to age and/or hormone treatment has the external appearance of the gender that they identify as except for their genitals, and who would simply go into the [gender] bathroom, close the bathroom stall, sit down and do their business, cover their genital areas with clothing, and then exit the bathroom without exposing their genitalia and without being exposed to anyone else's genitalia, is now exposed as a transgender person because he is forced to use the transgender bathroom and which creates the opportunity for harassment that wouldn't have existed if no other student would have known that the person is transgender.

Creating a transgender restroom can create more risks than it removes.

**d-usa**

TheMeanDM wrote:
I am curious to know what research you have looked at which shows that TG people are different biologically and genetically.

Honestly, lots. I know that is not a great answer and I apologize for that. It's just lots of different papers that I have come across during the past decade between school and work as well as just keeping up with various journals for professional development.

**d-usa**

TheMeanDM wrote:
There are risks and benefits to BOTH your position and mine.

Agreed.

I would be VERY curious to know the extended history of this person and what they did in the past.

Since 13 they have identified as a girl.

How have they gotten along with other students up until this point? Has there been mostly support or mostly ridicule?

I would wonder if up until 13 there really was that much difference between being a boy or a girl to her or the friends. Kids know that there are difference between boy or girls, but prior to the traditional puberty age I wonder if anyone really had much of their identify associated with it. But 13 seems prime puberty age, where sexuality and gender usually start to become an issue and things get "weird" for pretty much everyone.

Is this the first year they took gym?

Has there been a precedent of this person in the same-sex locker room over the past 4 years?

Good question.

I wish we could dig deeper.

Because of this person has been changing in the LOCKER ROOM all these 4 years...then why the fuss now?

It doesn't say in the story, but I wonder if maybe they changed schools? I would think it would mention it in the story if she did, but it seems like this could be the right age to jump from middle school to high school, or junior high to senior high. And the timing seems prime for "just started class what the hell is going on with this kid" scenarios if nobody else has ever dealt with this.

**d-usa**

CptJake wrote:
The kid is a senior, I doubt he just changed schools. More likely he needed a PE credit to graduate.

We didn't need a PE credit to graduate so I didn't think of that being a possibility.

**d-usa**

You can fix being ignorant about a subject. But when people just keep on repeating the same thing over and over again after you try to explain how something actually works it usually means that it is time to abandon the thread and let the echo chamber continue.

**d-usa**

Because fething up a person for 18 years simply because other people don't know or believe that it is not just a case of simply choosing gender like its the flavor of the month is stupid.

There are many valid discussions about how to help transgender kids and normal kids integrate together and how we deal with that as a society, and that's fine. But forcing a guy to be a girl or a girl to be a guy for 18 years because you don't believe it is a thing is not a solution, it is damaging.

**d-usa**

Ghazkuul wrote:
d-usa wrote:
Because fething up a person for 18 years simply because other people don't know or believe that it is not just a case of simply choosing gender like its the flavor of the month is stupid.

There are many valid discussions about how to help transgender kids and normal kids integrate together and how we deal with that as a society, and that's fine. But forcing a guy to be a girl or a girl to be a guy for 18 years because you don't believe it is a thing is not a solution, it is damaging.

I just specifically said they can self identify all they want, I don't feel children are mature enough to make that kind of decision yet. Researchers have said that the Human brain doesn't fully develop until around 25, we haven't even finished developing yet and people are talking about making that kind of a decision.

How can you tell me it is ok for a 8-12 year old to self identify as a female regardless of the fact that they were Born a boy, but it is not ok for them to do other tasks such as drinking/smoking/voting/military service/driving a car? We have age restrictions on everything, 99% of the time for safety or because we as a society have rules we adhere to, but these kids are ok to make decisions which could literally kill them later on (Transgender have the HIGHEST attempted suicide rate of any gender identity "41%")

Not to be an ass, but not being able to smoke or vote is not going to feth you up psychologically, but being forced to live as one gender when you are another will.

I know that it is not your intention, but a lot of your posts are very dismissive and insulting to the problems and realities of being transgender. The suicide rate is a problem, but it is fixed by helping transgender people address their problems early. Basically going "I couldn't smoke until I was 18, why do you think you should be able to choose what gender you are" isn't helping with fixing the atmosphere that contributes to suicides, especially since it ignores the reality that someone doesn't choose at 18, they lived that reality for 18 years before that.

I don't think we would argue that veteran suicides are up, so we should maybe keep people from identifying as veterans so early.

**d-usa**

Ghazkuul wrote:
d-usa wrote:
Ghazkuul wrote:
d-usa wrote:
Because fething up a person for 18 years simply because other people don't know or believe that it is not just a case of simply choosing gender like its the flavor of the month is stupid.

There are many valid discussions about how to help transgender kids and normal kids integrate together and how we deal with that as a society, and that's fine. But forcing a guy to be a girl or a girl to be a guy for 18 years because you don't believe it is a thing is not a solution, it is damaging.

I just specifically said they can self identify all they want, I don't feel children are mature enough to make that kind of decision yet. Researchers have said that the Human brain doesn't fully develop until around 25, we haven't even finished developing yet and people are talking about making that kind of a decision.

How can you tell me it is ok for a 8-12 year old to self identify as a female regardless of the fact that they were Born a boy, but it is not ok for them to do other tasks such as drinking/smoking/voting/military service/driving a car? We have age restrictions on everything, 99% of the time for safety or because we as a society have rules we adhere to, but these kids are ok to make decisions which could literally kill them later on (Transgender have the HIGHEST attempted suicide rate of any gender identity "41%")

Not to be an ass, but not being able to smoke or vote is not going to feth you up psychologically, but being forced to live as one gender when you are another will.

I know that it is not your intention, but a lot of your posts are very dismissive and insulting to the problems and realities of being transgender. The suicide rate is a problem, but it is fixed by helping transgender people address their problems early. Basically going "I couldn't smoke until I was 18, why do you think you should be able to choose what gender you are" isn't helping with fixing the atmosphere that contributes to suicides, especially since it ignores the reality that someone doesn't choose at 18, they lived that reality for 18 years before that.

I don't think we would argue that veteran suicides are up, so we should maybe keep people from identifying as veterans so early.

I am not "Dismissive" or "insulting" towards gender dysphoria, I just don't want my children going to school and being exposed to seeing the opposite gender naked in bathrooms/locker rooms until a certain age. If your ok with mixing gender bathrooms/locker rooms then just get rid of the entire semblance of segregation between the genders at schools and the work place. No more Mens rooms/womans rooms it is just the bathroom. But if your not ok with that then you need to realize that this is why people have a problem with this issue.

I know you don't mean to be insulting, that's why I even mentioned it.

But comparing gender identity to choosing to smoke or getting a tattoo does exactly that. It is dismissive and it is insulting, but I don't think that you are doing it with any mean intend.

I'm not mentioning it to criticize you for it, I'm mentioning it to help you realize you are doing it.

**d-usa**

How long ago has it been that people were sincerely arguing that it is wrong for gay guys to be in the same locker room as straight guys because they are just going to fantasize about all the naked guys and it puts the other people at risk because the gay guys might not been able to restrain themselves?

Has "gay on straight locker room sexual assault" become the pandemic that it was claimed to be?

**d-usa**

Polonius wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
I guarantee you, if I walked into a womens restroom and never looked at or did anything inappropriate I would still get arrested. Even if all I was doing was something totally legal. Like say I sat down in a corner and started reading War and Peace. I'd still get in massive trouble.

You might get arrested, but even then only if you refused to leave.

I wouldn't recommend it, but lets assume you walked into the women's restroom, dressed as a man, went into a stall, did your business, flushed, washed your hands, and left.

What, exactly, do you think would happen? Maybe somebody gets a manager or something. Odds are, they'd be happy you left.

My wife routinely drags me to some arts/crafts/whatever show at the fair park with the end result being 5,000 women and 200 men. Every single time I go there are women using the men's bathroom because it is usually empty. When I go in and use the urinal they usually look pretty embarrassed when they come out of the stall and run towards the door.

Maybe I should start demanding a police escort to the bathroom to arrest them all on sight...

**d-usa**

Ghazkuul wrote:
d-usa wrote:
Polonius wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
I guarantee you, if I walked into a womens restroom and never looked at or did anything inappropriate I would still get arrested. Even if all I was doing was something totally legal. Like say I sat down in a corner and started reading War and Peace. I'd still get in massive trouble.

You might get arrested, but even then only if you refused to leave.

I wouldn't recommend it, but lets assume you walked into the women's restroom, dressed as a man, went into a stall, did your business, flushed, washed your hands, and left.

What, exactly, do you think would happen? Maybe somebody gets a manager or something. Odds are, they'd be happy you left.

My wife routinely drags me to some arts/crafts/whatever show at the fair park with the end result being 5,000 women and 200 men. Every single time I go there are women using the men's bathroom because it is usually empty. When I go in and use the urinal they usually look pretty embarrassed when they come out of the stall and run towards the door.

Maybe I should start demanding a police escort to the bathroom to arrest them all on sight...

Now switch the genders around, woman would in fact call the cops on you for that. So whats your point?

Care to cite a single case of a guy being arrested for using the woman's bathroom?

**d-usa**

CptJake wrote:
d-usa wrote:
How long ago has it been that people were sincerely arguing that it is wrong for gay guys to be in the same locker room as straight guys because they are just going to fantasize about all the naked guys and it puts the other people at risk because the gay guys might not been able to restrain themselves?

And they all have a penis. So why can't Kid With Penis also use the locker room allocated to people with penises? Can't the other people with penises be able to restrain themselves from what ever it is that makes this particular Kid With Penis worried?

Or does the argument only work in one direction?

Because the gay guy is a boy, that's why he uses the boys locker room. And despite the fact that everyone used to think that this will lead to sexual perversions it hasn't.
And a girl is a girl, what's why she uses the girls locker room. And again everybody is thinking that it will lead to sexual perversions, which it won't.

**d-usa**

Grey Templar wrote:
I know its People of Walmart, but still. http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/man-dressed-in-skirt-arrested-in-women%E2%80%99s-bathroom/

Still waiting on a case where a man was arrested for using the woman's bathroom.