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Simple thing.
I deep strike an Assault vehicle (lets say a storm eagle) as it has the deep strike rule
the unit inside DID NOT take it as a dedicated transport
Can the unit inside disembark/charge?
(the reason i am asking this is that the unit themselves didnt deep strike as they were in a vehicle at the time

Rulebook, p157 wrote:Assault Vehicle
Passengers disembarking from Access Points on a vehicle with this special rule can charge on the turn they do so (even in a turn that the vehicle was destroyed, or in the following turn) unless the vehicle arrived from Reserve that turn.

Your unit inside still counts as arriving from DSR/OGR while in a transport. So no, unless otherwise stated.

This is why formations like Skyhammer are so nasty now. You get to assault out of Reserve/Deep strike.

barnowl wrote:
This is why formations like Skyhammer are so nasty now. You get to assault out of Reserve/Deep strike.

Only the Assault Squads do. The Devastator Squads cannot Charge the turn they arrive. They do get Relentless, though, which is better for a unit with a plethora of Heavy Weapons intended to shoot things.

Same with the Fist of Khorne Formation, rules specifically within the formation allow the unit inside to Assault out of Reserves from the Kharybdis Assault Claw. Which is hilarious because "Oh noes, Khorne Berzerkers!" At least the champion can take an Axe of Khorne at Initiative for AP2.

They can disembark, but not charge.

Except the hungry for blood rule specifically allows them to charge upon disembarking.

 mjl7atlas wrote:
Except the hungry for blood rule specifically allows them to charge upon disembarking.

But does not specifically allow them to do so on the turn they arrive from reserve

You basically have two restrictions here:

Units can't charge on the turn in which they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves/Ongoing Reserves.

Units can't charge when disembarking from a vehicle.

You need to overcome both restrictions to charge from reserves. Assault Vehicle only overcomes the second restriction. The first is still in place.

I know ICs dont benefit from unit rules now due to the faq, but what happens when lets say Dante in his own private pod drops in next to skyhammer buddies and joins them in the movement phase turn 1. Can they stil assault?

Can Dante assault on the turn he arrives from reserve?

peirceg wrote:
I know ICs dont benefit from unit rules now due to the faq, but what happens when lets say Dante in his own private pod drops in next to skyhammer buddies and joins them in the movement phase turn 1. Can they stil assault?

No, the FAQ specifically said that Formation benefits do not confer to any IC's that join them.

 Imateria wrote:

peirceg wrote:
I know ICs dont benefit from unit rules now due to the faq, but what happens when lets say Dante in his own private pod drops in next to skyhammer buddies and joins them in the movement phase turn 1. Can they stil assault?

No, the FAQ specifically said that Formation benefits do not confer to any IC's that join them.

Exactly. The FAQ closed any and all ways for an IC to benefit in any way from a Detachment or Formation other than his own. That even includes stubborn when granted by a Formation. Not the best ruling as it leads to inconsistent rules behaviour, but at least it is a clear ruling with no room for loopholes that I know of.

 jokerkd wrote:

 mjl7atlas wrote:
Except the hungry for blood rule specifically allows them to charge upon disembarking.

But does not specifically allow them to do so on the turn they arrive from reserve

Except it does.

 mjl7atlas wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:

 mjl7atlas wrote:
Except the hungry for blood rule specifically allows them to charge upon disembarking.

But does not specifically allow them to do so on the turn they arrive from reserve

Except it does.

No, it says nothing (iirc) about being allowed to assault after deepstriking RAW, simply that they CAN assault after disembarking (i.e. if they deepstruck turn 1, then disembarked on turn 2). RAI? Sure, I think it's obvious that it was intended.

Like jokerkd said, nothing is allowing them to assault despite arriving from reserve AND out of a vehicle, just allowing them to assault out of a vehicle.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 mjl7atlas wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:

 mjl7atlas wrote:
Except the hungry for blood rule specifically allows them to charge upon disembarking.

But does not specifically allow them to do so on the turn they arrive from reserve

Except it does.

No, it says nothing (iirc) about being allowed to assault after deepstriking RAW, simply that they CAN assault after disembarking (i.e. if they deepstruck turn 1, then disembarked on turn 2). RAI? Sure, I think it's obvious that it was intended.

Like jokerkd said, nothing is allowing them to assault despite arriving from reserve AND out of a vehicle, just allowing them to assault out of a vehicle.

the rules state that they "prohibit you from assaulting the turn you arrive via deep strike. It does not, however, prohibit you from disembarking the turn you arrive. The 'fist of khorne' formations 'hungry for blood' special rule supercedes the 'can not assault the turn you arrive' restriction. Convoluted explanation but there ya go. 'Hungry for blood' is worded just about the only way it can be worded to make sense."



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Because what would be the purpose of giving them a rule that allows them to assault after disembarking from an assault vehicle when the assault vehicle already gives them that ability?

 mjl7atlas wrote:
the rules state that they "prohibit you from assaulting the turn you arrive via deep strike. It does not, however, prohibit you from disembarking the turn you arrive. The 'fist of khorne' formations 'hungry for blood' special rule supercedes the 'can not assault the turn you arrive' restriction. Convoluted explanation but there ya go. 'Hungry for blood' is worded just about the only way it can be worded to make sense."

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Because what would be the purpose of giving them a rule that allows them to assault after disembarking from an assault vehicle when the assault vehicle already gives them that ability?

Good question, but it still does not state anything about Reserves. If it forced the Disembark upon arrival, you may have had a point, but without it...

 mjl7atlas wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 mjl7atlas wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:

 mjl7atlas wrote:
Except the hungry for blood rule specifically allows them to charge upon disembarking.

But does not specifically allow them to do so on the turn they arrive from reserve

Except it does.

No, it says nothing (iirc) about being allowed to assault after deepstriking RAW, simply that they CAN assault after disembarking (i.e. if they deepstruck turn 1, then disembarked on turn 2). RAI? Sure, I think it's obvious that it was intended.

Like jokerkd said, nothing is allowing them to assault despite arriving from reserve AND out of a vehicle, just allowing them to assault out of a vehicle.

the rules state that they "prohibit you from assaulting the turn you arrive via deep strike. It does not, however, prohibit you from disembarking the turn you arrive. The 'fist of khorne' formations 'hungry for blood' special rule supercedes the 'can not assault the turn you arrive' restriction. Convoluted explanation but there ya go. 'Hungry for blood' is worded just about the only way it can be worded to make sense."



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Because what would be the purpose of giving them a rule that allows them to assault after disembarking from an assault vehicle when the assault vehicle already gives them that ability?

Right, but where specifically does it give permission to assault from reserves, in addition to the ability to disembark and assault? (keep in mind this IS GW and they've never been the best at writing rules) Obviously you can disembark from deepstrike, or drop pods would be useless. And it can obviously be worded far better, I.e. "units from this formation can assault the turn they arrive from reserves, including deepstrike and treat all transports as assault vehicles."

And yes, they really do have a rule that is useless because the transport has the assault vehicle USR.

From Forge World.
"Hi Matthew,

Well This is a case of looking at the written rules and following them. Special rules override rules in the rule book. What do the specific rules say?

Thanks"

The hungry for blood special specifically states that they can assault in the turn they disembark. The spear of sicarius also allows for this type of charge. Or are loyalist marines only allowed to do cool things?

 mjl7atlas wrote:
From Forge World.
"Hi Matthew,

Well This is a case of looking at the written rules and following them. Special rules override rules in the rule book. What do the specific rules say?

Thanks"

The hungry for blood special specifically states that they can assault in the turn they disembark. The spear of sicarius also allows for this type of charge. Or are loyalist marines only allowed to do cool things?

See, that'd be the specific permission I'd be looking for, but that's not always true about codex > BRB (i.e. firing at invisible units with a bonus to BS that doesn't specifically say it grants the bonus to snap shots)

And RAW, you really still only have one permission granted when you need two (disembark AND arriving from reserve). HIWPI is yes, allowed to assault after coming in, but imo RAW says otherwise unless it gets FAQ'd.

 mjl7atlas wrote:
From Forge World.
"Hi Matthew,

Well This is a case of looking at the written rules and following them. Special rules override rules in the rule book. What do the specific rules say?

Thanks"

The hungry for blood special specifically states that they can assault in the turn they disembark. The spear of sicarius also allows for this type of charge. Or are loyalist marines only allowed to do cool things?

From totally-Forgeworld
"Hi Daniel,

Well This is a case of shut the feth up, don't you DARE to waste our time with this kind of question again. Go eat poison?

Thanks"

Technically you can argue it lets you run and assault, or fire a special weapon (if they could get one...) and assault.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Technically you can argue it lets you run and assault, or fire a special weapon (if they could get one...) and assault.

not really. its says you can disembark and assault. so if it wouldnt be an assault vehicle you could still assault because the codex rule give you permission to do it (assault after disembarkation). but if you run or fire a heavy weapon then the rulebook forbids you to charge, because the codex rule doesnt mention any of it (so it doesnt override the rulebook).

and dont get me started on useless rules... i mean dok grotsnik from the ork kodex confers his unit (and himself) a 5+ fnp while having a wargear piece that give him a 6+ fnp...

RedNoak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Technically you can argue it lets you run and assault, or fire a special weapon (if they could get one...) and assault.

not really. its says you can disembark and assault. so if it wouldnt be an assault vehicle you could still assault because the codex rule give you permission to do it (assault after disembarkation). but if you run or fire a heavy weapon then the rulebook forbids you to charge, because the codex rule doesnt mention any of it (so it doesnt override the rulebook).

and dont get me started on useless rules... i mean dok grotsnik from the ork kodex confers his unit (and himself) a 5+ fnp while having a wargear piece that give him a 6+ fnp...

But going by the logic mjl7atlas is using, the permission granted by being allowed to disembark and assault overrides everything, which is what nosferatu1001 was saying there.

Well it would seem that Gamesworkshop 40k seems to think they CAN assault 1st turn.

 mjl7atlas wrote:
Well it would seem that Gamesworkshop 40k seems to think they CAN assault 1st turn.

But, RAW they cannot. GW isn't known for their stellar rules writing anyways.

There are no RAW that prohibit it.

 mjl7atlas wrote:
There are no RAW that prohibit it.

The fact the the formation failed to lift the restriction on assault from reserves is RAW prohibiting it

We know what they intended to do with it but they wrote the rule wrong

 mjl7atlas wrote:
There are no RAW that prohibit it.

Where does it SPECIFICALLY say you can charge after deepstriking/entering from reserves? Nowhere. Notice how (i.e.) SKyhammer specifically says they can assault after deepstriking.

(No, being able to charge after disembarking doesn't count, that's basically making every vehicle for them an assault vehicle.)