Dark eldar. Starting fresh.

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**Irubius**

Greetings.

I have made the bold (or foolish) decision to start over with Dark eldar. I picked them up when they got their last book in 2011(?)
and I am about to start over from scratch. So I would like to get as much advise as I possibly can because I just hate when you jump
in and buy stuff that you wont use in the end. So please. Feel free to leave the knowledge you have in a comment below. Thank you.

**Champion of Slaanesh**

Good choice on choosing the dark kin. First of all do you want to play competitive or casual? If you want to play competitive the strong dark Eldar lists general revolve around reaver jet bikes and 5 man warrior squads in venoms alongside true born in venoms. Add fliers and haemonculi coverns to taste. If you plan to play casually then pretty much everything is usable

**Irubius**

I would like to play both but more heavy on the casual side for now until I have more experience with them.

**Champion of Slaanesh**

Well then the only thing I would suggest avoiding is Wych cult units with the exception of the succubus and the jet bikes as Wych units are kinda weak :(

**Irubius**

I will keep that in mind. Thank you!

**vipoid**

Personally, I'd advise steering clear of the following units (by slot):
HQ - Haemonculi (when not from the Coven supplement), Drazhar, Lelith
Elites - Bloodbrides, Mandrakes, Wracks
Troops - Wyches
FA - Hellions, Beast Packs
HS - Cronos (outside of Coven formations), Voidraven

Units I'd recommend most (again, by slot):
HQ - Lhamaean (out best HQ-filler by far), otherwise a shooty-archon or melee succubus
Elites - possibly Grotesques (though I'd recommend taking them from the Coven supplement if at all possible - so that they actually benefit from a useful PfP table)
Troops - Warriors
FA - Reavers, Scourges, possibly Razorwings
HS - Ravager
Transports - Venoms or Raiders are both good

Also:
- Sergeants aren't worth it outside of melee units (and, even then, probably only if you plan to put a character in the unit)
- I'd advise against any Soulfright weapons as most armies are outright immune to them
- I don't think we have a single piece of wargear that isn't abysmal, overcosted, or both. So, 'boys before toys' is particularly adept. Take only what you really need.

Obviously this is advice from a competitive standpoint, so feel free to ignore parts of it for more casual play. Though, be advised that even the best units in our army are still barely above average - so if you start taking a lot of bad units/wargear, you can't rely on other units to pick up the slack. If you see what I mean.

**Irubius**

From what you are writing I feel rather good about what
I would want in my army. Feel very excited about this project!

**Jimsolo**

From the other thread in tactics:

Jimsolo wrote:
Warriors in raiders vs warriors in venoms is a debate that will rage eternally.

Wyches are abysmal in this edition, do NOT pick them up.

Here's a breakdown of my own (subjective) opinion on what's good and what's not:

Optimal Choices (If I leave these units out of a list, I feel like I'm missing out on something.)
HQ- None
Troops- Warriors in Venoms
Elites- Grotesques
Fast Attack- Reavers, Venoms, Scourges
Heavy Support- None
Formations- Scalpel Squadron, Grotesquerie

Reasonable Choices (Useful. I'm not going to cry if I can't take them, but I might still take them.)
HQ- All
Troops- Warriors in Raiders
Elites- Trueborn, Mandrakes, Incubi
Fast Attack- Raiders, Razorwing
Heavy Support- Talos Engines, Ravagers
Formations- Raiding Party, Scarlet Epicureans, Corpsethief Claw, Dark Artisan

Sub-par choices (If I have to take these, I'm handicapping myself.)
HQ- None.
Troops- Wyches
Elites- Bloodbrides, Wracks
Fast Attack- Beast packs, Hellions
Heavy Support- Voidraven Bombers, Cronos Engines
Formations- Covenite Fleshcorps

I strongly prefer fielding units of five warriors with a blaster, riding in a venom, as my troop tax. Four to five of those is very cheap, and hard for opponents to handle with their quantity.

**vipoid**

I'll just echo that I also favour troop squads of 5 warriors with a blaster in a venom (with extra splinter cannon).

Although, these days, I rarely field more than minimum troops.

**Irubius**

I want to use my Archon (Lord Irubius) What would be to join him? In the last book I used Sslyth and Incubi.

**vipoid**

Are you thinking of using a melee or a shooty Archon?

If shooty (probably best, sadly) then I'd recommend Blasterborn in a Raider, though Sslyth and/or Medusae are also possible (the latter are probably the riskiest).

For a melee Archon, I'd recommend Grotesques.

**Irubius**

I always go melee in casual games.

**vipoid**

In that case, I'd recommend Grotesques - preferably coven ones.

With 3-wounds each, T5 and FNP they're the most resilient bodyguard he can get. Also, their lack of AP2 synergises better with the Archon than the Incubi.

If you use the Coven supplement, then they're Fearless from turn 2 onwards, have IWND from turn 4 onwards, and Zealot on turn 5 (which they also confer to the Archon).

**anticitizen013**

There's a formation that consists of 5 Talos in the Haemonculus Coven supplement... it's basically the Dark Eldar version of a death star since it's so brutal. Give them all the item that gives them ID on 6's to wound and even MC will think twice about smashing into combat with them. Their downside is that they are slow (with the formation bonus they have scout, however, so they get a bonus movement at the beginning of the game). Other downsides are ID (although they are T7 so that helps alleviate all but special rules) and mass poison attacks which basically = other DE or Plaguebearers, haha.

Probably not a good idea to bring that along to casual games though; it's rather frustrating to deal with.

**zerosignal**

Dark Eldar are very hard to build competitively - the codex is largely underwhelming.

My housemate bought a new army last year - emphasis on MSU, lots of transports, and a couple of the fliers.

We played three games - once with my necrons and twice with my Imperial Fists - and he hasn't played them since, or bothered painting them. I suspect they'll get sold eventually. It's a shame, as my IF army isn't *too* filth, and I have Tyranids as a weaker list too.

As long as your group is casual, DE are a nice choice - great models.

**Irubius**

Yeah I based my choice mostly on the models. I was asking people around different forums what I should base my choice on and almost everyone said models.

**vipoid**

People always say that.

At least they'll look nice on the shelf.

**Lynkon_Lawg**

I agree with all of the the other posts in this thread, however I have played my DE army in local tournaments, and I have to say, don't count the Wyches out completely. Yes, I agree that in this version, Hellions are utterly and completely useless, however 8 Wyches (NO Wych weapon), a Hekatrix with Haywire grenades and an Agonizer, and a Succubus with Haywire grenades and an Archite Glave in a Raider with Nightshields and Enhanced Aethersails makes for a very fun and effective unit. Is it the be-all - end-all CC monster? no, certainly not, but I've made some significant kills with the S4 AP2 Archive Glave and AP3 poisoned Agonizer, not to mention killing armor with the haywire and plasma grenades. The other 8 Wyches are basically ablative wounds, or horde clearers, and the 4++ in CC is a beautiful thing. Just don't get stuck in the open. Not to mention I think the models are top notch.

**Jayden63**

I'm just going to add that DE are tough to learn. You will probably loose your first 10 games or so with them. It just takes time to learn the distances and what units synergize with what other units the best way. The problem is your so fragile that these early miscues become very debilitating as you take casualties. DE are not a come from behind type army.

However, I'll also add that once you get an army with models you like. Stick with it win or lose and eventually it will become more wins than losses. It just takes time to get a DE army to work and switching out units willy nilly just doesn't work. They are not like SM or Orks where you can change half the units out for others and still have the same record.

**dominuschao**

I feel Jimsolo's assessment is pretty accurate although I'd move beasts to the middle slot personally having used them pretty extensively in various forms. I feel they are not sub par as much as require greater tailoring to include.

In general not much has changed from the last time you played DE I imagine.. i.e. its primarily a mechanized force with very specialized weaponry that doesn't do functional overlap very well.

Raiders and venoms are both excellent and you'll want several of each minimum. Raiders are better for transporting units due to greater durability to all but cover ignoring (3 hp vs 2 hp and access to night shields). Also having weapons that force jink is key in this edition so disi cannons hold greater value than in the past.
Venoms are better as cheap anti infantry platforms and the smaller footprint can matter.
Which is better in a vacuum is a debate without end but the core of a DE army usually revolves around some number of venom warriors as above, or else gunboats of 10 warriors in raiders as another viable alternative. From there the lists diversify to include blasterborn sometimes WWP'd by an IC or grotesques including the formation but other options like incubi are also viable inside transports. Reavers are worth building an entire army around and scourges are good enough to be taken in multiples although each have their nuances.
As someone who has found success with nearly every unit in the book I cannot honestly recommend wyches, hellions or wracks. They are barely warm bodies. Everything else I've had good the great success with.

Ravagers are still solid but slightly more expensive and now other units like scourges can fill niche rolls to take pressure off the HS slot so your army should be more diverse than previously, all things considered.

Razorwing JFs are also solid and one of the role players of the book along with mandrakes. I wouldn't count mandrakes out btw simply for this reason as they are meant to push back scouting armies or deny DS landing zones plus they can help enable strategies like reserve heavy lists in conjunction with other units.

It's worth noting if you play with terrain dense boards DE become much better as so much of the book is assault oriented and relies on cover. Either way though the army punishes weak misplays which is why so many people have not found success with the army IMO. That and tournament play which tends to be ultra lite on proper terrain.

Anyway I love my dark eldar above all my other armies. Very rewarding in all aspects of the hobby.

**Jimsolo**

Very true. Dark Eldar are an exceptionally unforgiving army.

**Tinkrr**

It's so weird hearing that Wyches are now bad, when I think they were the best thing in the codex ten years ago.

As for what's good, I personally hear a lot of good things about the Corpse Thief Claw formation, and reading the stats it seems very powerful. Not to mention the models are rather awesome.

**Jimsolo**

Shoot, two years ago wyches were awesome.

As to the CTC: It's wonderful, but it's like the Titanic. When it goes down, it goes down hard. My first game with one I lost the entire thing in one round of melee combat. I prefer to run it with psychic support, either something to give it a legit cover save, or better still, Invisibility.

**marcman**

Are raiders and ravengers built from the same box kit?

**Jimsolo**

Ravagers/Raiders? No. The Ravager is it's own box, which contains all the Raider sprues, plus one additional sprue with the Ravager bit. (So you can build a Raider from a Ravager, but not the other way around.)

**marcman**

Oh lolXD thanks

**Ignatius**

Dark Eldar, despite being one of my favorite looking armies is one of my least played so I'm not quite the expert as Jimsolo or vipoid are, but I've had some success.

I generally go overboard on Ravagers (3!) and a big group of warriors (20!) as a firebase. I drop in more warriors in Raiders with Splinter Racks behind the enemy if they are advancing, or to their sides if they are static. I have some Scourges for haywire and anti armor redundancy. I add some Wyches in a Raider as well as a Succubus and Incubi in a Venom for reactionary assaulting. Generally though, I play shooty Dark Eldar.

**Tinkrr**

Jimsolo wrote:
Shoot, two years ago wyches were awesome.

As to the CTC: It's wonderful, but it's like the Titanic. When it goes down, it goes down hard. My first game with one I lost the entire thing in one round of melee combat. I prefer to run it with psychic support, either something to give it a legit cover save, or better still, Invisibility.

I wouldn't know, last time I played was like ten years ago :p. Though now that I think about it the codex was basically either Wyches or super fast movement units with a bunch of guys in Transports, and everything else was terrible. I can't remember if the dudes on hover boards were good or bad back then.

**Jimsolo**

Didn't play them back then, so I'm not sure either.

Last edition's dex, though, they were pretty sweet.

**flamingkillamajig**

I too would like to start dark eldar.

I am quite another that didn't quite get to use the hoverbike 'zoom, head chop' feature and am sad to see it go even without playing with it.

That said I'm curious about everything. I want bikes, grotesques, wracks, warriors, trueborn and possibly even the wyches. I hear wyches are bad now but somehow I feel if another unit took the overwatch fire or you pinned an enemy unit (in 40k this is supposedly unlikely) that you were going to charge then they might not be so bad. In warhammer fantasy before it died 'stand and shoot' was more accurate than overwatch and was just as likely to fry dudes. Sometimes you'd have to send another unit to take the 'stand and shoot' attack for the other guys that couldn't. I'm not sure how valid this is for 40k but it seems valid enough that wyches might still be ok esp. against some armies that aren't armed with guns or aren't armed with anything likely to hit much (charge a heavy weapons team squad made for killing vehicles).

Again I am very new and don't even know all the 7th edition rules or even close yet.

From what I've seen so far grotesques (all have flesh gauntlets now holy crap!) and medusae are amazing now. I kind of want to make a squad of medusae and load em into a venom and just launch templates all over MEQ armies for laughs.

I'm curious about the way bikes work now but the models are still beautiful and the wracks look great and I've heard good things on their new weapon despite not being too sure about it or the best way to use it yet (might prefer to find out with some play time). I kind of want to use the wrack champion's hex rifle and spam minimum sized units of wracks on foot but I hear this is a bad idea and as time goes on the hex rifle seems less and less effective at doing most things. The likelihood it hits a specific model is rare and everything on its own probably has a ridiculously good save and wounds anyway. It's a shame too. It sounds like such a promising item that falls flat on its face these days.

All this said I hear dark eldar are very hard to play as and some have trouble recommending them to me. I used to play imperial guard back in 5th edition though (for about 2 and a half years) and the totally different flavor is exciting to me. I just wish wyches were still effective supposedly.