Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok. So. I just found out about how D-Cannons work. I know that the fortunate ones are torn to pieces. But if not, the target is sucked completely into warp space.

WHAT HAPPENS IN WARP SPACE? Basically, do the events of Event Horizon happen to them?

If so, dear sweet god. That weapon is awful. Terrifying. The worst thing to do to a living being with conscious thought. >_<

You might live in relative peace on some obscure Daemon World happily worshipping Nurgle. You might be torn to shreds by angry Daemons. It's like rolling a dice to decide your fate.

That's how I've understood it at least.

As I've understood it, you die. Very quickly. Entering the Warp unshielded without being a Mary Sue (lol Draigo) is like walking into a nuclear reactor.

Those things are horrible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I always imagine it like this



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Especially since they are deployed on turbulent places like war zones already lurking with deamons and must be sort of invisible deamon feeding machines dropping out snacks at regular time intervals.

They're pulled into a psychic maelstrom of infinite size and infinite complexity, that changes every microsecond and faster still, but somehow remains constant throughout. To enter it is to be torn apart instantly or, worse still, be made into a plaything of laughing gods. It is a realm whose very nature, not to mention its appearance, drives a man insane without hesitation. It is every emotion, possible and impossible, experienced all at once. It is a realm where time, existence, logic, reason, sanity, and conscious thought is nothing but petty jokes to be laughed at. It is a realm where tomorrow does not follow upon today, nor today upon tomorrow, for the concept of both implies meaningless causality. It is a realm where sensation and emotion replaces matter and reason. It is the realm where your every nightmare becomes omnipotent, and you are not even an insect before them.

It is by far worse than the Event Horizon, because while those men faced a conscious evil that sought their horrifying demise, the Warp seeks no such thing. It is not sentient. It is beyond sentience. It is everything and nothing, all at once. It is all of your fears, pains, horrors and demises, not content with limiting itself to just a few, and that fact alone will shred your sanity like precious paper.

The Warp is death.

 Ashiraya wrote:
They're pulled into a psychic maelstrom of infinite size and infinite complexity, that changes every microsecond and faster still, but somehow remains constant throughout. To enter it is to be torn apart instantly or, worse still, be made into a plaything of laughing gods. It is a realm whose very nature, not to mention its appearance, drives a man insane without hesitation. It is every emotion, possible and impossible, experienced all at once. It is a realm where time, existence, logic, reason, sanity, and conscious thought is nothing but petty jokes to be laughed at. It is a realm where tomorrow does not follow upon today, nor today upon tomorrow, for the concept of both implies meaningless causality. It is a realm where sensation and emotion replaces matter and reason. It is the realm where your every nightmare becomes omnipotent, and you are not even an insect before them.

It is by far worse than the Event Horizon, because while those men faced a conscious evil that sought their horrifying demise, the Warp seeks no such thing. It is not sentient. It is beyond sentience. It is everything and nothing, all at once. It is all of your fears, pains, horrors and demises, not content with limiting itself to just a few, and that fact alone will shred your sanity like precious paper.

The Warp is death.

Completely contradicted and undermined by the jaunty adventures of Kaldor Draigo.

Am I the only one who thinks Kaldor Draigo is fine?

I mean

1. He is a member of the absurdly OP Grey Knights, who are even more absurdly OP than the already absurdly OP Space Marines, a very mighty psyker with the best gear there is and enough psychic wards to kill most Administratum sections from writing them all down. He is not a normal person. He is probably the single greatest warrior in the entire Imperium (short of the sleeping Primarchs), for all intents and purposes, and he has the gear to back that up, all of it designed to repel the Warp with technology so mighty it is greater than even that of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

2. He fights through the maelstrom of insanity, but he achieves nothing. Every twisted madness he strikes regrows behind him. His solo campaign is an exercise in futility. He is a paragon, a shining dot of light in the impossible darkness, but he is incapable of illuminating anything beyond himself. He is utterly doomed.

I love Draigo. He is a symbol of grimdark - he shows you just how utterly trivial mere humans like you and me are in the setting compared to the gods of war that walk the battlefields, and they in turn fear what is to them gods of war, and above them stands Draigo. And yet even he can't really do anything lasting.

I like Draigo too.

Thanks for all of the feedback. This is a really terrifying weapon to realize is used against living, thinking beings in the setting.

On the slightly positive side, not all of the warp is a deamon infested hell storm. There are relative calm places and there are lots of non deamon inhabitants ( not that those are any better ) so they could be less nasty if used as defensive weapon in a peaceful place. But warzones tend to be attract deamons on the other side so It will most of the time not be nice at all.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks Kaldor Draigo is fine?

I love Draigo. He is a symbol of grimdark - he shows you just how utterly trivial mere humans like you and me are in the setting compared to the gods of war that walk the battlefields, and they in turn fear what is to them gods of war, and above them stands Draigo. And yet even he can't really do anything lasting.

The problem with Draigo, overpowered though he is, is that he is still mortal, finite if you will. Whereas the warp should (and is supposed to) represent the infinite. Physical prowess, will power and morality shouldn't really matter at all compared to the unknowable empyrean. These concepts should be irrelevant, abstract concepts in the warp relevant only to the physical universe. By having a mortal (or finite being) who can be measured and therefore has limitations overcoming the undefinable and the unknown is similar to a mortal beating a god in a fist fight (or game of chess). It undermines and ultimately trivializes something that should be beyond such a thing. I don't mind draigo's fluff, but it certainly shows the warp isn't as terrible or as unsurvivable (or even as alien) as you make it out to be. Just by having physical descriptions, and linear perspectives through the warp makes it out to be somewhat comparable to our reality. A dimension where time, space and thought is irrelevant, should make any physical being instantly cease to exist by becoming a contradiction. Draigo's fluff completely contradicts this concept. Draigo may be the imperium's greatest warrior, but in the warp (the infinite) that should be as relevant as being the worlds biggest termite, or the universes toughest amoeba.

 chalkobob wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks Kaldor Draigo is fine?

I love Draigo. He is a symbol of grimdark - he shows you just how utterly trivial mere humans like you and me are in the setting compared to the gods of war that walk the battlefields, and they in turn fear what is to them gods of war, and above them stands Draigo. And yet even he can't really do anything lasting.

The problem with Draigo, overpowered though he is, is that he is still mortal, finite if you will. Whereas the warp should (and is supposed to) represent the infinite. Physical prowess, will power and morality shouldn't really matter at all compared to the unknowable empyrean. These concepts should be irrelevant, abstract concepts in the warp relevant only to the physical universe. By having a mortal (or finite being) who can be measured and therefore has limitations overcoming the undefinable and the unknown is similar to a mortal beating a god in a fist fight (or game of chess). It undermines and ultimately trivializes something that should be beyond such a thing. I don't mind draigo's fluff, but it certainly shows the warp isn't as terrible or as unsurvivable (or even as alien) as you make it out to be. Just by having physical descriptions, and linear perspectives through the warp makes it out to be somewhat comparable to our reality. A dimension where time, space and thought is irrelevant, should make any physical being instantly cease to exist by becoming a contradiction. Draigo's fluff completely contradicts this concept. Draigo may be the imperium's greatest warrior, but in the warp (the infinite) that should be as relevant as being the worlds biggest termite, or the universes toughest amoeba.

But he is. He is not overcoming anything in the Warp. The very stuff of the Warp itself is toying with him. You are a sadistic god. An ant poses no threat to you, and you stomp on it for amusement. A super-ant takes up a tiny sword and a shield and tries to strike you, doing absolutely nothing, but you find its attempts amusing. You let it continue to live because its futile resistance is not even enough to irritate you.

It is also worth keeping in mind the nature of Draigo's powers and armour - he essentially has a small semi-Gellar field around himself.

 Ashiraya wrote:


But he is. He is not overcoming anything in the Warp. The very stuff of the Warp itself is toying with him. You are a sadistic god. An ant poses no threat to you, and you stomp on it for amusement. A super-ant takes up a tiny sword and a shield and tries to strike you, doing absolutely nothing, but you find its attempts amusing. You let it continue to live because its futile resistance is not even enough to irritate you.

It is also worth keeping in mind the nature of Draigo's powers and armour - he essentially has a small semi-Gellar field around himself.

I could accept this if he was not exiting the warp periodically to save the day in the physical universe. If he truly was trapped and helpless and never did anything meaningful in the physical universe it would be very grim, but that just isn't the case. Also, if I was a sadistic god I would be doing more than merely wasting Draigo's time, and doing things that are incomprehensibly disturbing and cruel. The devil isn't too frightening if all he does is ring the doorbell of you're house and run away.

Without psyker powers to preserve your physical body, the favor of the Gods, or shields that preserve the physics of the materium- you dissolve.

 chalkobob wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:


But he is. He is not overcoming anything in the Warp. The very stuff of the Warp itself is toying with him. You are a sadistic god. An ant poses no threat to you, and you stomp on it for amusement. A super-ant takes up a tiny sword and a shield and tries to strike you, doing absolutely nothing, but you find its attempts amusing. You let it continue to live because its futile resistance is not even enough to irritate you.

It is also worth keeping in mind the nature of Draigo's powers and armour - he essentially has a small semi-Gellar field around himself.

I could accept this if he was not exiting the warp periodically to save the day in the physical universe. If he truly was trapped and helpless and never did anything meaningful in the physical universe it would be very grim, but that just isn't the case. Also, if I was a sadistic god I would be doing more than merely wasting Draigo's time, and doing things that are incomprehensibly disturbing and cruel. The devil isn't too frightening if all he does is ring the doorbell of you're house and run away.

He cannot escape the warp by himself. When a large Daemon force breaks into the material universe, he is sometimes sucked with them, as helpless as a leaf in a flood. When the Daemons are banished, he is returned with them. In the Warp, there really is nothing he can do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Without psyker powers to preserve your physical body, the favor of the Gods, or shields that preserve the physics of the materium- you dissolve.

Strong psychic powers, specifically. A Wyrdvane psyker would be torn apart, whereas a Librarian can not only travel solo through the warp a short distance but he can even risk taking allies with him.

Keep in mind Psykers wield the Warp. They wield that impossibility against itself.

The Warp bends to the will of the psyker and those of the Materium.

Is it really so far-fetched that the greatest of all the Grey Knights who eclipses Janus himself, has the strongest will and strength of mind to believe the Emperor protects and no harm will befall him in his duty, has the power to turn the rules of the Warp upon itself?

The Warp is what you believe, if you are a psyker even moreso. If Draigo believes the Emperor protects the will makes it so in the Warp.

If his presences halts you, oh well, he will move on eventually and the Warp will return to as it was without his being in the vicinity.

You all make good points, but Draigo's tale is one of the bits of fluff that IMO take away from the setting. If the warp (specifically the domains of the chaos gods) is meant to be viewed as analogous to hell, no living mortal (regardless of how powerful) should be able to exist in it without going completely insane, or being destroyed. Furthermore while Draigo may be psychic, devout and have something comparable to a geller field, none of these things are full proof, and by being stuck in the warp forever they would eventually fail. Due to the non-linear nature of the warp this failure would have already happened (while simultaneously not happened) and unless we assume the silver knight that succumbs to Slaanesh in the daemon codex is Draigo (which seems to be a highly disputed belief) than there really is no evidence to suggest it has. (though I agree it would be very grimdark if it did)

The Warp is not analogous to hell though. If time does not matter in the warp that means Draigo's faith is as strong as when he went in.

If it isn't Draigo, then who would it be?

 Krivvin wrote:
Ok. So. I just found out about how D-Cannons work. I know that the fortunate ones are torn to pieces. But if not, the target is sucked completely into warp space.

WHAT HAPPENS IN WARP SPACE? Basically, do the events of Event Horizon happen to them?

Basically, yes.

 chalkobob wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:


But he is. He is not overcoming anything in the Warp. The very stuff of the Warp itself is toying with him. You are a sadistic god. An ant poses no threat to you, and you stomp on it for amusement. A super-ant takes up a tiny sword and a shield and tries to strike you, doing absolutely nothing, but you find its attempts amusing. You let it continue to live because its futile resistance is not even enough to irritate you.

It is also worth keeping in mind the nature of Draigo's powers and armour - he essentially has a small semi-Gellar field around himself.

I could accept this if he was not exiting the warp periodically to save the day in the physical universe. If he truly was trapped and helpless and never did anything meaningful in the physical universe it would be very grim, but that just isn't the case. Also, if I was a sadistic god I would be doing more than merely wasting Draigo's time, and doing things that are incomprehensibly disturbing and cruel. The devil isn't too frightening if all he does is ring the doorbell of you're house and run away.

Thats part of the curse on him. He can only return to the physical realm for a short period of time.

Its a well established trope of heroic tragedy. Futile existence broken by short periods of accomplishing some small thing. Draigo is basically the hero in a Greek tragedy.

Sure, D-weapons are horrific, but you know what else is?

Flamethrowers.

You see, despite what the tabletop game says, most people hit by flamers don't die. They are simply burned horribly - so horribly that moving, breathing, living is torture as every nerve ending sends back a pain response at the slightest stimulus. It's pain so persistent that pain starts to lose meaning, so intense that the Dark Eldar don't use it because it cuts off the chance to escalate.

I see a lot of talk about the warp being impossible for any mortal being to exist in, the very fact that gellar fields are a thing is evidence that is comprehensible enough for people to work out a way to survive within it.

AtraUnam wrote:
I see a lot of talk about the warp being impossible for any mortal being to exist in, the very fact that gellar fields are a thing is evidence that is comprehensible enough for people to work out a way to survive within it.

Geller fields allow what would normally be impossible to be possible. They essentially bring a bubble of reality with them.

AtraUnam wrote:
I see a lot of talk about the warp being impossible for any mortal being to exist in, the very fact that gellar fields are a thing is evidence that is comprehensible enough for people to work out a way to survive within it.

Gellar Fields create a bubble of stable Reality around a ship entering the Warp. It's a sort of "cheat" in that, as long as your Gellar Field is functional, you aren't actually in the Warp. If your Gellar Field fails, however, you generally die. Horrifically. Like Event Horizon style horrific.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks Kaldor Draigo is fine?

I mean

1. He is a member of the absurdly OP Grey Knights, who are even more absurdly OP than the already absurdly OP Space Marines, a very mighty psyker with the best gear there is and enough psychic wards to kill most Administratum sections from writing them all down. He is not a normal person. He is probably the single greatest warrior in the entire Imperium (short of the sleeping Primarchs), for all intents and purposes, and he has the gear to back that up, all of it designed to repel the Warp with technology so mighty it is greater than even that of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

2. He fights through the maelstrom of insanity, but he achieves nothing. Every twisted madness he strikes regrows behind him. His solo campaign is an exercise in futility. He is a paragon, a shining dot of light in the impossible darkness, but he is incapable of illuminating anything beyond himself. He is utterly doomed.

I love Draigo. He is a symbol of grimdark - he shows you just how utterly trivial mere humans like you and me are in the setting compared to the gods of war that walk the battlefields, and they in turn fear what is to them gods of war, and above them stands Draigo. And yet even he can't really do anything lasting.

See, I agree, and I like the basic idea of Draigo and what he represents, but I just think the stories are badly written. At times it really oversteps the whole "tragic hero" thing and enter comic book territory. That seems to be common with Ward. Great ideas, poor execution.

If D-Cannons open up the warp, then a daemon or chaos space marine sent into the warp should be perfectly fine. If anything, when D cannons are used where ever daemons and chaos marines are already lresent, each use of a D cannon should summon Slaanesh Daemonkin to fight Eldar.

 Filch wrote:
If D-Cannons open up the warp, then a daemon or chaos space marine sent into the warp should be perfectly fine. If anything, when D cannons are used where ever daemons and chaos marines are already lresent, each use of a D cannon should summon Slaanesh Daemonkin to fight Eldar.

It's a one way opening as far as I know. Stuff in the Materium gets shoved into the Warp but nothing comes out the other way. Daemon would be fine but unable to continue that battle. A Chaos Marine would likely be torn to shreds; only those with powerful pacts or potent Psychic powers would be capable of surviving.

I don't think the immaterium is as inhospitable as people are making it out to be. Yes, if you go in unprotected you'll very likely be torn to shreds, but it's not like that always happens instantly, and it's not like there's nothing you can do to defend yourself. There are all kinds of stories of marines fighting in the immaterium, there are space hulks which drift unprotected through the warp with all kinds of stowaways (from orks, to genestealers, to other xenos life forms) and when the space hulk pops back into real space they're just fine half the time.

Is the immaterium dangerous? Yes.

Is it as dangerous to a marine as it is to you and me? No.

Are some places in the warp more dangerous than others? Absolutely.

Will you die if you can't find a way back to real space? Without a doubt - even if there are no demons in the immediate vicinity, you'd eventually starve or die of dehydration.

 Ashiraya wrote:
If it isn't Draigo, then who would it be?

I always assumed it was some other GK, probably the same one that had a sliver of doubt from that story of the changeling.

One thing that supports your opinion that Draigo is being played with though, is in WHFB during The End Times, some of the heroes were in the warp, and they met a Giant Knight in gleaming silver armor.
He went to defend them from an incoming tide of daemons while they did something in a orrery I think, and after they left they saw him impaled on spears. So the Knight was clearly Draigo, and it came down to the Chaos Gods putting him on hiatus while they actually went and did things.

Another potential is that Draigo is actually a Demon/Warp Prince of the Emperor.

Why is the warp only filled with horrible stuff? If sentient beings and their emotions make up most of the crap in there isnt it possible to be thrown into a sorta heaven? You could get sent to candy land with rainbows, unicorns, and gumdrop towers!! Or a buncha nude b****** that want nothing but your c***!! D-cannon me away baby!!

Draigos full of s***, I know the real reason he spends so much time in the warp