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So I have to play tau soon and I play grey Knights now this seems like a death sentence to me if I can't get in close enough so I'm wondering about tactics as I have never played them yet I know they are a shooting army and well let's face it the grey Knights don't stand up well to heavy shooting ... And I don't know what he will be bringing so is there any advice you guys could give ?

Bring at least 2 dreadknights with hammer, heavy incinerator, and psycannons.

I also suggest using the Nemesis Strike formation for extra mobility after deepstriking units in.

As a Tau player the main thing you'll need to look out for is the riptide as it's a anti-TEQ killing machine(literally).Because its ion accelerator overcharged is str8 ap2 meaning it'll even insta-death your 2 wound termies.Also a big mistake people make when plying against Tau is that they can sometimes forget about markerlight sources.I promise you those markerlights will give you hell and they'll have to be destroyed.Now then a tactic that will win you the game is also the hardest tactic to pull off against Tau but plays off against there main weakness .You'll need to get something fast and hard to kill to run right at the Tau gunlines though not a dread knight Tau can kill them pretty easy if they focus fire(and markerlights) you'll need some thing BIGGER eg.imperial knight to get stuck in.Now it depends what gunline he has ,if it's made off FW he loses reliable anti-troop plus dakka spam if broadsides he loses high strength shots ,get the unit that was most threatened by these and move it as fast as you can .

Everything that the GK are good at is wasted on the Tau and what the GK lack is what is needed to beat Tau. GK lack good shooting which you need to chip away at the Tau and the GK are incredibly good at CC which the Tau already suck at and are fine with forfeiting units to buy time and allow for more shooting.

Fire Warrior spam obliterates GK by forcing a ton of saves, plasma crisis will tear terminators a new one even if they die in one turn, Riptides tee off on everything the GK have (and GK lack ranged AP2), and Tau markerlights are quite safe against everything except Dreadknights. Deepstriking vs Tau just results in a lot of clumped up units getting killed by interceptor fire. Invisible deathstars are fairly effective against Tau but then those units just get markered up and then some plasma crisis suits unload BS3-4 snap shots into all the terminators and half the death star is dead. Invisibility does nothing against supporting fire which can be half the Tau army shooting into the unit every time it tries to charge.

GK need to spam Dreadknights or take allies like a Knight. Anything with shunt and flamers is your friend for killing markerlights. Getting off a Vortex into the middle of the Tau gunline would be ideal as would casting cleansing flames.

Tau are an easy army to defeat as Grey Knights, if you take the right units. You need Incinerator armed Interceptors, and DreadKnights with Gatling Psilencers and Heavy Psycannons, in addition to the normal Librarian, GKT, and Draigo.

Shunt to the Markerlights, and kill them with Incinerators and Stormbolter fire. Use the Psilencer on Riptides and Broadsides. Gate in Draigo with the Libby and GKT. That's turn 1. Turn two will see you assaulting what's left. Turn 3, you finish off the remaining Tau.

SJ

My two friends play GK and Tau respectively. Both are fairly equal in winning, but I feel the GKs are actually better.

Nemesis strike force, 2 dreadknights with teleporter, sword, incinerator and psycannon, 2 librarians with terminators, 2 interceptors with incinerators, storm raven to taste. Deepstrike in if second, shunt up in their face if first.

They get one turn of response, then you win.

GKs are NOT better than Tau. Get that out of your head right now. Anyone who can plan against a drop list can plan against a shunting list. GK might a bit of an edge vs Tau, but not against the field. And those DKs die so very fast to grav. Actually, the whole army dies to grav, but the power armor guys die to regular weapons just fine, and let you save grav for the 2+ dudes.

Martel732 wrote:
GKs are NOT better than Tau. Get that out of your head right now. Anyone who can plan against a drop list can plan against a shunting list. GK might a bit of an edge vs Tau, but not against the field. And those DKs die so very fast to grav. Actually, the whole army dies to grav, but the power armor guys die to regular weapons just fine, and let you save grav for the 2+ dudes.

Guess we'll worry about that when Tau get Grav.

SJ

If both players bring a TAC list I'd have to give it to the Tau seven times out of ten.

Grey Knights biggest weaknesses are lack of long range shooting and low model count. Tau have long range in spades and will whittle down the few models GK have. Some GK lists will lack the mobility or expendable units to properly get to grips with Tau gunlines. They also don't have enough units or shooting to just ignore Tau and try to get objectives.

Now, if the GK player tailors a bit by taking a lot of teleporters in the form of interceptors and DKs, then it might swing it their favor. Personally, I dislike list tailoring, but that's up to you and your opponent.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
GKs are NOT better than Tau. Get that out of your head right now. Anyone who can plan against a drop list can plan against a shunting list. GK might a bit of an edge vs Tau, but not against the field. And those DKs die so very fast to grav. Actually, the whole army dies to grav, but the power armor guys die to regular weapons just fine, and let you save grav for the 2+ dudes.

Guess we'll worry about that when Tau get Grav.

SJ

Sounds a lot like list tailoring though when you talk about bringing the "right" weapons. As I said, against the field, Tau are better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GangstaMuffin24 wrote:
If both players bring a TAC list I'd have to give it to the Tau seven times out of ten.

Grey Knights biggest weaknesses are lack of long range shooting and low model count. Tau have long range in spades and will whittle down the few models GK have. Some GK lists will lack the mobility or expendable units to properly get to grips with Tau gunlines. They also don't have enough units or shooting to just ignore Tau and try to get objectives.

Now, if the GK player tailors a bit by taking a lot of teleporters in the form of interceptors and DKs, then it might swing it their favor. Personally, I dislike list tailoring, but that's up to you and your opponent.

I wouldn't tolerate it myself. And list tailoring is just about the only thing that would make BA viable.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Tau are an easy army to defeat as Grey Knights, if you take the right units. You need Incinerator armed Interceptors, and DreadKnights with Gatling Psilencers and Heavy Psycannons, in addition to the normal Librarian, GKT, and Draigo.

Shunt to the Markerlights, and kill them with Incinerators and Stormbolter fire. Use the Psilencer on Riptides and Broadsides. Gate in Draigo with the Libby and GKT. That's turn 1. Turn two will see you assaulting what's left. Turn 3, you finish off the remaining Tau.

I totally agree, another good thing to remember is if you can force an initiative test tau just explode off the table. This is the best bet though and one of the only reasonable ones.

I play a list normally referred to as a Shunt-Punch list, because it does great in Maelstrom. Specifically, its core is Draigo, a PML3 Librarian with Liber Daemonica, 1-2 squads of GKT, 1-2 squads of Interceptors, and 2 NDK. With good line of sight blocking terrain, this list is very strong versus most armies, and only struggles against the exact same armies everyone else struggles against, namely Grav heavy MSU Marines and Scatbike Eldar. Yet, I can handle my own versus both, it just becomes a question of which player makes less mistakes. The main strength of my play style is thet my entire army is in your face on turn 1, yet can still move anywhere on the table as needed. The only "tailoring" is that my list is tailored for Maelstrom, not any one specific army.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I play a list normally referred to as a Shunt-Punch list, because it does great in Maelstrom. Specifically, its core is Draigo, a PML3 Librarian with Liber Daemonica, 1-2 squads of GKT, 1-2 squads of Interceptors, and 2 NDK. With good line of sight blocking terrain, this list is very strong versus most armies, and only struggles against the exact same armies everyone else struggles against, namely Grav heavy MSU Marines and Scatbike Eldar. Yet, I can handle my own versus both, it just becomes a question of which player makes less mistakes. The main strength of my play style is thet my entire army is in your face on turn 1, yet can still move anywhere on the table as needed. The only "tailoring" is that my list is tailored for Maelstrom, not any one specific army.

SJ

That's fair. I'd love to run an army like that.

I wasn't accusing you of list tailoring specifically. I just don't think most GK look like that, though to be fair I only have the lists I make and see on the internet as reference so I could be way off base.

Any chance you could post your exact list? I'm curious to the exact composition and point cost.

What about without good LOS blocking terrain? Not every battlefield has a bunch of walls. Like for example a Mad Max battlefield?

Martel732 wrote:
What about without good LOS blocking terrain? Not every battlefield has a bunch of walls. Like for example a Mad Max battlefield?

If you aren't making heavy use of good terrain, you aren't playing 7th. Most of the issues with 7th people complain about are fixed via LoS Blocking terrain. People say assault is dead, until you have enough terrain to allow melee units to get close enough to charge. People complain about gunline armies dominating the game, until you have terrain to break up killing fields into covered approaches.

If you decide to play on planet Bowling Ball, that's on you. Just keep in mind that you are intentionally playing at a disadvantage, therefore have no right to complain.

SJ

Amen. And fwiw 'most' GK lists I've seen are in the shunt punch category so I would actually call this the norm, followed by draigo centstar and these are what I play as well.


Countering a shunt list is not the same as countering a drop list btw. Shunt is strictly superior in accuracy and does not trigger interceptor which is huge in this match.

Anyway the tau lists I see do not have much if any marker light units. Its usually skyrays and maybe some msu lights. Farshiit bombs and double or triple tides plus some bsides are more common around here and against this type of list GKs can have problems because of both mobility and low ap weaponry not to mention their own 2+ save units (at least their missiles are ap3 though). Assault and psych phases are where you'll beat them although getting to grips with some of their units takes a little setting up.

Vortex, for a plate of D.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What about without good LOS blocking terrain? Not every battlefield has a bunch of walls. Like for example a Mad Max battlefield?

If you aren't making heavy use of good terrain, you aren't playing 7th. Most of the issues with 7th people complain about are fixed via LoS Blocking terrain. People say assault is dead, until you have enough terrain to allow melee units to get close enough to charge. People complain about gunline armies dominating the game, until you have terrain to break up killing fields into covered approaches.

If you decide to play on planet Bowling Ball, that's on you. Just keep in mind that you are intentionally playing at a disadvantage, therefore have no right to complain.

SJ

Im not sure why you think 7th ed boards are supposed to have a huge amount of los blocking terrain. There is no guidance in the rules.

People playing shooting lists have a vested interest in keeping covered approaches rare. It sounds like you have convinced and or bullied opponents into giving your gk an optimal table. No such luck in my case. Sure I can just turn down every game until I get my way but I might as well quit at that rate.

I dont think los blocking terrain would help ba that much anyhow as they are only mediocre at assault in 7th.

Martel732 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What about without good LOS blocking terrain? Not every battlefield has a bunch of walls. Like for example a Mad Max battlefield?

If you aren't making heavy use of good terrain, you aren't playing 7th. Most of the issues with 7th people complain about are fixed via LoS Blocking terrain. People say assault is dead, until you have enough terrain to allow melee units to get close enough to charge. People complain about gunline armies dominating the game, until you have terrain to break up killing fields into covered approaches.

If you decide to play on planet Bowling Ball, that's on you. Just keep in mind that you are intentionally playing at a disadvantage, therefore have no right to complain.

SJ

Im not sure why you think 7th ed boards are supposed to have a huge amount of los blocking terrain. There is no guidance in the rules.

People playing shooting lists have a vested interest in keeping covered approaches rare. It sounds like you have convinced and or bullied opponents into giving your gk an optimal table. No such luck in my case. Sure I can just turn down every game until I get my way but I might as well quit at that rate.

I dont think los blocking terrain would help ba that much anyhow as they are only mediocre at assault in 7th.

The rulebook itself gives pretty poor guidelines on how to set up the table (I don't think it even ever recommends the table size?), but the general experience that most players have is that the game sucks when you can draw LOS to/from pretty much anywhere.

As a Tau player I love putting some more BLOS stuff on the table because it makes the game more fun, rather than me just sitting back and blasting stuff apart as it walks towards me. As a Daemon player, I love putting more BLOS stuff on the table because it makes stuff like Daemonettes or Bloodletters survive the walk across the table for a turn or two longer.


A recommendation I like is to have 25-33% of the table covered in terrain. 3 large pieces (~1 ft square) should block or completely block LOS, and another 3 pieces should severely limit LOS. A player should be able to completely hide a landraider-sized vehicle from the opponent inside his deployment zone, and there should be minimal/no places where a complete edge-to-edge line of fire is available.


As for GK vs Tau... depends what kind of Tau.
The old-school firewarrior gun line, GK can do pretty well against. The list is poor at taking objectives and puts out low damage beyond 15". Anything with shunt and flamers can be up in Tau's grill after taking only minimal damage from first round shooting, taking out their markerlights and lines of firewarriors, and preparation for a turn 2 assault that the Tau can't get away from fast enough.

The new-wave all suits all the time Farsight lists are a much bigger problem. Again, its about minimizing damage until you can get in an 'all or nothing' situation. Give the Tau player only bad options - where they have to choose whether they're going to lose their Riptide or Crisis squad the next turn. I can't remember which spells GKs have access to but lores like Telepathy (Shriek, Invisibility) can be awesome. I'm not saying its easy at all, Farsight Tau are definitely a stronger army than pure GK, but it is possible if you play smart.

Im not sure why you think 7th ed boards are supposed to have a huge amount of los blocking terrain. There is no guidance in the rules.

People playing shooting lists have a vested interest in keeping covered approaches rare. It sounds like you have convinced and or bullied opponents into giving your gk an optimal table. No such luck in my case. Sure I can just turn down every game until I get my way but I might as well quit at that rate.

I dont think los blocking terrain would help ba that much anyhow as they are only mediocre at assault in 7th.

The same could be said of of his shooty opponents 'bullying' him into having no terrain.
Honestly this is at the heart of nearly every single thread and its why advice and experience varies so much. Tournaments are notoriously barren and thus assault is dead outside of deathstars or the extreme cases like wraiths/twc. However terrain dense boards actively promote infantry and the assault phase. Its literally two different games depending on terrain density.

dominuschao wrote:

Im not sure why you think 7th ed boards are supposed to have a huge amount of los blocking terrain. There is no guidance in the rules.

People playing shooting lists have a vested interest in keeping covered approaches rare. It sounds like you have convinced and or bullied opponents into giving your gk an optimal table. No such luck in my case. Sure I can just turn down every game until I get my way but I might as well quit at that rate.

I dont think los blocking terrain would help ba that much anyhow as they are only mediocre at assault in 7th.

The same could be said of of his shooty opponents 'bullying' him into having no terrain.
Honestly this is at the heart of nearly every single thread and its why advice and experience varies so much. Tournaments are notoriously barren and thus assault is dead outside of deathstars or the extreme cases like wraiths/twc. However terrain dense boards actively promote infantry and the assault phase. Its literally two different games depending on terrain density.

My group is mostly tourney prep so I would the bully in my case. Using a lot of terrain would not be appropriate.

Is there a particular reason that tournament and tournament style games use very little terrain?

Most of the games I've played we err on side of more LOS blocking terrain. Granted this is a 4-5 person group, two of which exclusively play gunline styles. Additionally, a lot of the batreps I've seen use a pretty hefty amount of terrain.

No clue, honestly.

 GangstaMuffin24 wrote:
Is there a particular reason that tournament and tournament style games use very little terrain?

Most of the games I've played we err on side of more LOS blocking terrain. Granted this is a 4-5 person group, two of which exclusively play gunline styles. Additionally, a lot of the batreps I've seen use a pretty hefty amount of terrain.

Terrain is time conduming to make and takes up space, which makes it difficult to provide in large quantities for self-run tournaments. Ever wonder why most tournaments have entry fees? Its to help the TO recoupe financial losses and to at best break even from paying for the space, tables and terrain.

Yet, terrain is functionally free for you to craft on your own, so make some good terrain, 'kay?

SJ

Other players still have to agree to use it. Which, in my group, they won't. The excuse will be that TWC and Wraiths are broken, and they don't want them to have any more unfair advantages.

Is there a particular reason that tournament and tournament style games use very little terrain?

TOs will always prefer more entries to more terrain per board. If more people sign up less terrain to go around. And second to what Jeffersonian said. The game is obviously designed around terrain and GW used to go as far as to make it a specific rule of terrain density only now they don't and people wonder why their games are out of control. Its the most overlooked and under appreciated aspect of the hobby.

Other players still have to agree to use it. Which, in my group, they won't. The excuse will be that TWC and Wraiths are broken, and they don't want them to have any more unfair advantages.

Propagandas funny sh*t huh.

Well TWC and Wraiths ARE broken. But scatterbike broken?

The same thing that lets TWC get close also reduces the range of Scatter Bikes, and that is terrain. Proper use of terrain will greatly enhance your game, fixing the most common problems peopke have with 7th. Gunlines cannot stay static and expect to win. Melee armies have a chance to close. Vehicle heavy armies are slowed. Flyers become predictable. Tall models will not automatically have line of sight. Positioning your models will actually matter. MSU is broken up and nonlonger automatically self supporting.

Yet, gunlines can now claim objectives without worry of losing cover. Melee still needs to use their USRs to close. Tall models can be approached. Flyers have to try harder to succeed. Vehicles can actually have a cover save.

Issues get fixed.

SJ

But it makes units like TWC and Wraiths almost impossible to deal with. And some grey knight units, I might add as well. BA are just victims either way, so it really doesn't make any difference to me.

Martel732 wrote:
But it makes units like TWC and Wraiths almost impossible to deal with. And some grey knight units, I might add as well. BA are just victims either way, so it really doesn't make any difference to me.

I believe meant to say it would require some effort to kill TWC and Wraiths, because it would require to make a plan beyond pew pew, and the move you models slightly more than pivoting.

SJ