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These were discussed a bit when they first came out. But now that they are ITC legal, they deserve a new discussion rather than rezzing the old thread.

Chaos Knights can be found here: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Chaos_Knight.pdf
The Kytan Daemon Engine here: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Kytan_Daemon_Engine_of_Khorne.pdf

Obvious interactions include the Grimoire of True Names to buff the daemon inv, cursed earth for the same, and of course Invisibility.

Others are also pointing out the ability for Chaos Knights to take a Legacy of Ruin from IA13. Something that ITC is also allowing if comments made in the poll thread are any indication. However it should be noted that in order to take a legacy, the vehicle must be part of a CSM CAD as per IA 13.

I would say the most points efficient would be the Chaos Knight with Mark or Khorne (reroll stomp, +D3attacks) followed by Nurgle (IWND). But some people are loving the Kytan I hear.

What are some strategies/lists you guys have found work?

I've been running the Chaos knight in my Khorne Daemonkin lists and the mark of khorne is quite awesome. 50 points well worth it. The added invul saves in CC and on all sides is nice and the D3 attacks plus reroll stomps pay for itself easily. Much better than Loyalist knights for sure. The grimore and cursed earth stuff is something I am avoiding just because it is so foolish to think a knight can have a 2++ on all facings both in CC and shooting. Not to mention making it invisible. This game doesn't need more broken units in my opinion. i think the khorne mark is a no brainer. Blood for the blood god is also nice for Daemonkin to add to the tally faster.

Kytan Daemon Engine rules in regards to who may select one:

" In addition, it may be selected instead of a Khorne Lord of Skulls in
any Detachment where such a war machine is available."

...so meaning it may be taken as a Lord of War choice in a Renegades and Heretics army (Imperial Armour 13) if the Arch Demagogue is a Bloody Handed Reaver?

Intercessor wrote:
Kytan Daemon Engine rules in regards to who may select one:

" In addition, it may be selected instead of a Khorne Lord of Skulls in
any Detachment where such a war machine is available."

...so meaning it may be taken as a Lord of War choice in a Renegades and Heretics army (Imperial Armour 13) if the Arch Demagogue is a Bloody Handed Reaver?

No. Detachments can only be comprised of units from the same faction and since its not a LoW for renegades you would be breaking that rule.

Very cool news. I was actually just contemplating what competitive lists with Chaos Knights would look like the other day. My first hack at it is here: ScreamerStar + Knight + Renegade Artillery

I didn't, however, contemplate what legacies would work best on one, or if it would be worth shuffling points to get one. The current incarnation of that list uses an Ordnance Tyrant Demagogue to allow the two units of Field Artillery to fire into units clumped up in combat, and there's not really room for a Kytan so it would have to go without legacies.

Death of Kasyr Lutien on a Khorne Knight running alongside a ScreamerStar (so so so unfluffy lol) seems pretty awesome too. You probably get at least a turn or two of rerollling 6 summoning dice which could be a huge boon to pumping out enough summons to make a meaningful impact on the game. I feel the strength of the list would come down to maximizing what you get out of the CSM CAD though. Even the bare minimum tax of 2 units of Cultists and a Sorc is pretty hefty for what you're getting.

1st War of Armegeddon seems good for KDK armies at a glance, but since the FW rules writing is preditably wonky it may not be that great. From the wording it seems like the +1 to the Invuln save is on a model by model basis so you'd have to be pretty clumped up to make good use of it. Not to mention, you'd lose out on your Knight racking up BftBG points in addition to the CSM tax.

I'm definitely looking forward to see what competitive Chaos players do with this.

Yeah I definitely want to pick one up. The 1st war of Armageddon relic definitely works, giving you a 4++ on all sides and a 3++ with your shield facing. Give that bad boy cursed earth and go to town. Don't even need grim or invis in most situations.

Obviously this helps CSM a great deal but the real bread and butter is with a Daemon primary CAD. Grab Fatey and heralds of your choosing. It'll do some serious nasty. Need to revamp my Daemons 1850 for sure.

 luke1705 wrote:
Yeah I definitely want to pick one up. The 1st war of Armageddon relic definitely works, giving you a 4++ on all sides and a 3++ with your shield facing. Give that bad boy cursed earth and go to town. Don't even need grim or invis in most situations.

Obviously this helps CSM a great deal but the real bread and butter is with a Daemon primary CAD. Grab Fatey and heralds of your choosing. It'll do some serious nasty. Need to revamp my Daemons 1850 for sure.

I doubt 1st War of Armegeddon will be played that way at many (or any for that matter) large competitive events. In typical fashion, FW has written rules that make for muddy interactions with the GW codices. At the end of each entry describing the rules for the Daemon Knight upgrades it reads, "A Daemon Knight of X counts as being a Daemon aligned with X" which RAW, doesn't mean anything. Until an FAQ from FW explicitly gives them the benefits of being a "Daemon of X" that corresponds to the respective entries in Codex: Chaos Daemons, that last line might as well not exist. In the (somewhat unlikely) event that they do issue a statement saying just that, then all I can say is "Whoa." Shrouded Nurgle Knights w/ IWND, or 2++ rerollable Tzeentch Knights would be pretty insane. That said a Khorne Knight that benefits from 1st war is pretty much as tough and a lot killier.

I think the intent is that you get to be a Daemon with a specific alignment, but not the benefit of "daemon of X". Maybe it won't be played out that way at big events, but I thought FW had released a statement to that end. I'll dig it up if I can

EDIT:

No luck on the FW response; however a daemon aligned with Khorne must be a Daemon of Khorne. Check out the page of the daemons codex that speaks to daemonic alignment:

Not sure if this is ok to post (mods please let me know if not and I can remove it)

I'm happy with a 'daemon aligned with khorne' counting as a 'daemon of khorne' for rules interactions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Less happy with the concept that a daemon knight isn't a 'daemon engine', as they cannot take legacies. I know 'daemon engine' isn't defined, but it's hard to argue it's not an engine with the daemon rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Where did the bit about legacies only being allowed in a CSM CAD come from? I took it as anything with the CSM faction. Oh and there are some detachments that allow multi faction.

Yeah it's pretty clear that a "Daemon aligned with X" counts as a "Daemon of X" as detailed in the Daemonic Alignment rules that Luke posted. And yes FW did clarify this in an email response.

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/chaos-knight-question-answered.html

Captyn_Bob wrote:

Where did the bit about legacies only being allowed in a CSM CAD come from? I took it as anything with the CSM faction. Oh and there are some detachments that allow multi faction.

First paragraph in Appendix 1 under purchasing Legacies of Ruin rules in IA13. You can only take them for vehicles chosen for chaos space marines or one of their supplemental codexes.

 luke1705 wrote:
Yeah I definitely want to pick one up. The 1st war of Armageddon relic definitely works, giving you a 4++ on all sides and a 3++ with your shield facing. Give that bad boy cursed earth and go to town. Don't even need grim or invis in most situations.

1st war of Armageddon only increases "daemonic saves" of daemons of Khorne. So I do not believe it effects the shield, only the daemon inv.

 WhiteDevil wrote:


First paragraph in Appendix 1 under purchasing Legacies of Ruin rules in IA13. You can only take them for vehicles chosen for chaos space marines or one of their supplemental codexes.

Yeah, but it doesn't restrict it to a Combined Arms Detachment. I would say any chaos faction detachment could take it (e.g a hellbrute formation).

One possible rules grey area would be the noise marine Rhino in a Renegades list. Still a chaos marine unit, but with the renegade faction.. hmm


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On topic: I would buddy a knight/kytan with Belakor for invisibility, and just let them go to work.

 WhiteDevil wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Yeah I definitely want to pick one up. The 1st war of Armageddon relic definitely works, giving you a 4++ on all sides and a 3++ with your shield facing. Give that bad boy cursed earth and go to town. Don't even need grim or invis in most situations.

1st war of Armageddon only increases "daemonic saves" of daemons of Khorne. So I do not believe it effects the shield, only the daemon inv.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Yeah it's pretty clear that a "Daemon aligned with X" counts as a "Daemon of X" as detailed in the Daemonic Alignment rules that Luke posted. And yes FW did clarify this in an email response.

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/chaos-knight-question-answered.html

Well game on then, that's even better. Makes the Khorne option slightly less of an auto take but it still feels like the best one.

Yeah I think I'd take the Khorne over tzeentch. It's going to be tough to actually obscure him for shrouded and slaanesh is...well...slaanesh. Basically you can make him 4++ at all times even when the shield isn't facing the right way with the khornate relic, whereas tzeentch will be more potent when combined with the grim and/or cursed earth (aka unkillable outside of the D itself). I think Khorne's offense is worth the sacrifice in durability, since you can still CE him or grim him if you care, and that will be plenty durable. I'm just glad that chaos gets these bad boys. Honestly, this is better than the loyalist version by far

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 WhiteDevil wrote:


First paragraph in Appendix 1 under purchasing Legacies of Ruin rules in IA13. You can only take them for vehicles chosen for chaos space marines or one of their supplemental codexes.

Yeah, but it doesn't restrict it to a Combined Arms Detachment. I would say any chaos faction detachment could take it (e.g a hellbrute formation).

One possible rules grey area would be the noise marine Rhino in a Renegades list. Still a chaos marine unit, but with the renegade faction.. hmm


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On topic: I would buddy a knight/kytan with Belakor for invisibility, and just let them go to work.

Be'lakor feels too squishy for what he brings these days. He's basically a really expensive upgrade to another expensive unit that has a few very situational uses outside of providing Invis. I think between certain legacies and other more easily attainable combos (Cursed Earth, Grimoire) the Knights are going to plenty durable without Be'lakor and that those points could be spent better somewhere else.

luke1705 wrote:Yeah I think I'd take the Khorne over tzeentch. It's going to be tough to actually obscure him for shrouded and slaanesh is...well...slaanesh. Basically you can make him 4++ at all times even when the shield isn't facing the right way with the khornate relic, whereas tzeentch will be more potent when combined with the grim and/or cursed earth (aka unkillable outside of the D itself). I think Khorne's offense is worth the sacrifice in durability, since you can still CE him or grim him if you care, and that will be plenty durable. I'm just glad that chaos gets these bad boys. Honestly, this is better than the loyalist version by far

Yep now it's just down to figuring out what best to accompany said Khorne Knight, and whether it will be worthwhile to pay the CSM tax for 1st War of Armegeddon. I'm still on the fence about that.

Ah crap I forgot that was only for CSM. I'm definitely not on the fence about that anymore. If you're taking CSM, great. But I had every intention (and still do intend) to take it with a Daemons primary. Even if I wanted to be flexible, you'd have to take a CSM CAD, which would limit me to deamons allies since double CAD still isn't accepted everywhere so I try not to run it as my mainstream list.

Welp that frees up 35 more points on my list haha. Makes the shield a little more worthwhile and CE more necessary, as well as the grim being used more than never

With that in mind, this is my 1852 list haha. Not sure how to kill the two points. Likely a horror lost from here:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe just taking a paladin instead of an errant would be best. Not like I lack for anti armor

I am curious about something; for Khorne Daemonkin, the Kytan can be taken in place of a Lord of Skulls in the Blood Host detachment (e.g. in the Lord of Slaughter or War Engine slots). What about the Khorne Knight? Can it be taken as part of a Blood Host? I am mainly asking this on behalf of a friend who has some converted Imperial Knights that he made to look more "Khorne-y" using parts from some Lord of Skulls kits.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I am curious about something; for Khorne Daemonkin, the Kytan can be taken in place of a Lord of Skulls in the Blood Host detachment (e.g. in the Lord of Slaughter or War Engine slots). What about the Khorne Knight? Can it be taken as part of a Blood Host? I am mainly asking this on behalf of a friend who has some converted Imperial Knights that he made to look more "Khorne-y" using parts from some Lord of Skulls kits.

The experimental rules neglected to include this option :( so looks like you'll need a Combined Arms Detachment to take the daemonkin knight.

So knights with 2++ saves, re-rollig ones is a thing. Provided I grimmoire him and curse earth him.

Even only having the grimmoire on him would be insane.

Still vulnerable to that 6 on the D tho.

The Chaos Knight rules state that a Chaos Mnight of Khorne can be a LoW for a KDK detachment, which means in order to have both a Knight and a Kytan, you just need two detachments.

SJ

DaPino wrote:
So knights with 2++ saves, re-rollig ones is a thing. Provided I grimmoire him and curse earth him.

Even only having the grimmoire on him would be insane.

Daemon Knight of Tzeentch doesn't give rerolling 1s to save from Daemon of Tzeentch

 CrownAxe wrote:

DaPino wrote:
So knights with 2++ saves, re-rollig ones is a thing. Provided I grimmoire him and curse earth him.

Even only having the grimmoire on him would be insane.

Daemon Knight of Tzeentch doesn't give rerolling 1s to save from Daemon of Tzeentch

Are you sure? Daemon Knights of Tzeentch are aligned to Tzeentch and therefore benefit from that daemon bonus. Therefore allows them to reroll all saving throws of ones. I could be wrong but that is how I read it.

skycapt44 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

DaPino wrote:
So knights with 2++ saves, re-rollig ones is a thing. Provided I grimmoire him and curse earth him.

Even only having the grimmoire on him would be insane.

Daemon Knight of Tzeentch doesn't give rerolling 1s to save from Daemon of Tzeentch

Are you sure? Daemon Knights of Tzeentch are aligned to Tzeentch and therefore benefit from that daemon bonus. Therefore allows them to reroll all saving throws of ones. I could be wrong but that is how I read it.

Daemon of Tzeentch is a rule. If the Knight actual got that rule it would say "Daemon Knight of Tzeentch has the Daemon of Tzeentch rule" not some weird convoluted "aligned with tzeentch" nonsense.

Not only that but if he actually did get Daemon of Tzeentch, why would they go through the effort of also writing that is has the Daemon rule and Hatred against Nurgle? That would be pointlessly redundant.

 CrownAxe wrote:

skycapt44 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

DaPino wrote:
So knights with 2++ saves, re-rollig ones is a thing. Provided I grimmoire him and curse earth him.

Even only having the grimmoire on him would be insane.

Daemon Knight of Tzeentch doesn't give rerolling 1s to save from Daemon of Tzeentch

Are you sure? Daemon Knights of Tzeentch are aligned to Tzeentch and therefore benefit from that daemon bonus. Therefore allows them to reroll all saving throws of ones. I could be wrong but that is how I read it.

Daemon of Tzeentch is a rule. If the Knight actual got that rule it would say "Daemon Knight of Tzeentch has the Daemon of Tzeentch rule" not some weird convoluted "aligned with tzeentch" nonsense.

Not only that but if he actually did get Daemon of Tzeentch, why would they go through the effort of also writing that is has the Daemon rule and Hatred against Nurgle? That would be pointlessly redundant.

The heading in the Chaos Daemons codex for special rules is "Daemonic Alignment" and then goes on to list the 4 types...GW is known for pointless redundancies so I fail to see why you would be surprised?

skycapt44 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

skycapt44 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

DaPino wrote:
So knights with 2++ saves, re-rollig ones is a thing. Provided I grimmoire him and curse earth him.

Even only having the grimmoire on him would be insane.

Daemon Knight of Tzeentch doesn't give rerolling 1s to save from Daemon of Tzeentch

Are you sure? Daemon Knights of Tzeentch are aligned to Tzeentch and therefore benefit from that daemon bonus. Therefore allows them to reroll all saving throws of ones. I could be wrong but that is how I read it.

Daemon of Tzeentch is a rule. If the Knight actual got that rule it would say "Daemon Knight of Tzeentch has the Daemon of Tzeentch rule" not some weird convoluted "aligned with tzeentch" nonsense.

Not only that but if he actually did get Daemon of Tzeentch, why would they go through the effort of also writing that is has the Daemon rule and Hatred against Nurgle? That would be pointlessly redundant.

The heading in the Chaos Daemons codex for special rules is "Daemonic Alignment" and then goes on to list the 4 types...GW is known for pointless redundancies so I fail to see why you would be surprised?

Daemonic Alignment isn't a header for the 4 daemon rules. Daemonic Alignment is its own rule, that rule being that daemons of x can only be joined by daemons of x. And even if it was just a header that wouldn't be enough. This is a permissive ruleset you have to be specifically told that being aligned to x gives daemon of x which is not the case.

Also GW isn't actual know for pointless redundancies. All of their rule issues comes from vagueness and a lack of consistent language (such as referring to blast markers as template randomly). Redundancy practically doesn't exist.

Ya I guess that makes sense. I was saying it was a header simply because the text is actually bigger then the separate daemon rules so figured "Daemonic Alignment" Was special rule #1 which goes on to list the 4 alignments. Then the next rule which is the same text size as Daemonic Alignment is "Daemonic Instability". Therefore there are 2 special rules, not 6. I still think there is something to that. Why would the FW entry go on to state it is a daemon aligned to X if it didn't intend to reference the Daemonic Alignment special rules which look to include the 4 god types due to the print size.

skycapt44 wrote:
Ya I guess that makes sense. I was saying it was a header simply because the text is actually bigger then the separate daemon rules so figured "Daemonic Alignment" Was special rule #1 which goes on to list the 4 alignments. Then the next rule which is the same text size as Daemonic Alignment is "Daemonic Instability". Therefore there are 2 special rules, not 6. I still think there is something to that. Why would the FW entry go on to state it is a daemon aligned to X if it didn't intend to reference the Daemonic Alignment special rules which look to include the 4 god types due to the print size.

Its a vague and poorly worded way to imply that it counts as a daemon of x for rules interactions (such as hatred: daemon of x). GW/FW use language inconsistently all of the time, such as with blast markers (sometimes get referred to as atemplates which would imply they ignore cover), referring to psykers and psyker units (which ruins how the psychic rules work), This is just another one of those cases where they used a word that already had another meaning else where.

CrownAxe wrote:

skycapt44 wrote:
Ya I guess that makes sense. I was saying it was a header simply because the text is actually bigger then the separate daemon rules so figured "Daemonic Alignment" Was special rule #1 which goes on to list the 4 alignments. Then the next rule which is the same text size as Daemonic Alignment is "Daemonic Instability". Therefore there are 2 special rules, not 6. I still think there is something to that. Why would the FW entry go on to state it is a daemon aligned to X if it didn't intend to reference the Daemonic Alignment special rules which look to include the 4 god types due to the print size.

Its a vague and poorly worded way to imply that it counts as a daemon of x for rules interactions (such as hatred: daemon of x). GW/FW use language inconsistently all of the time, such as with blast markers (sometimes get referred to as atemplates which would imply they ignore cover), referring to psykers and psyker units (which ruins how the psychic rules work), This is just another one of those cases where they used a word that already had another meaning else where.

Wonky rules interactions aside, the Chaos Knights are going to be a strong asset to Daemons armies whether they benefit from the "Daemon of X" special rule or not. Funnily enough, I'd wager you see most competitive lists taking the Daemon Knight of Khorne upgrade which doesn't benefit at all from the "Daemon of Khorne" special rule (Furious Charge is irrelevant when you have D weapon).

luke1705 wrote:Ah crap I forgot that was only for CSM. I'm definitely not on the fence about that anymore. If you're taking CSM, great. But I had every intention (and still do intend) to take it with a Daemons primary. Even if I wanted to be flexible, you'd have to take a CSM CAD, which would limit me to deamons allies since double CAD still isn't accepted everywhere so I try not to run it as my mainstream list.

Welp that frees up 35 more points on my list haha. Makes the shield a little more worthwhile and CE more necessary, as well as the grim being used more than never

With that in mind, this is my 1852 list haha. Not sure how to kill the two points. Likely a horror lost from here:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe just taking a paladin instead of an errant would be best. Not like I lack for anti armor

I like that list. I'd definitely go with a Paladin as the extra S8 large blast seems more attractive than the melta rule on one. I've always run Venom Sting on the Plague Drones but I'm kinda liking the idea of Rot Proboscis for Poison 3+ now that I think about it. I'm also not a fan of having only 1 Herald in the unit, but when you've got the Knight on the table it takes some of the heavy lifting duty off of the DroneStar so in theory it could work I guess.

What about this though:

Fateweaver
Tz'erald: ML3 Disc, Grimoire
Tz'erald: ML3, Disc
Nu'erald: ML2, Locus of FNP, Greater
Nu'erald: ML2, Greater

3x Nurglings
3x Nurglings

8x Screamers
6x Plague Drones w/ Rot Proboscis

Khorne Knight Paladin w/ Dirge Caster

Light on bodies, but could be pretty nasty. Loses out on two warp charges compared to your list, but you get a nastier DroneStar.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alternatively you could go for a lot of bodies ala Hound Rush alongside the Knight and Screamers. Something like this:

Fateweaver
Tz'erald: ML3 Disc, Grimoire
Tz'erald: ML3, Disc

11x Horrors
11x Horrors

8x Screamers
11x Hounds
11x Hounds

Khorne Knight Paladin w/ Dirge Caster

VSG w/ 3 shields

Same amount of Warp Charges, less punchy but with a lot more protection against alpha strike lists.