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https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2015/12/14/rule-the-skies/

You didn't hear the screams from the other thread?

It appears that user picked a fortuitous time to bemoan the relevance of the Defender.

In any case, this thread is about the new expansion. Feel free to carry on talking about pre-Veterans Bomber and Defender in the other thread.

Card-by-card impressions:

Maarek Stele: getting him in a defender is a huge thing fluff-wise, and maybe even a good thing in a rules context. Even with the ATC he's kind of a distant second to Vader as a TIE advanced pilot. In a defender his pilot ability will be used less frequently but won't require spending any actions to set it up. And it's still likely to be a good alternative to Rexler and his PS 8 but weak pilot ability. I would have preferred to see him at PS 9 with a good defensive ability, but I guess we can't have everything.

Glaive Squadron pilot: pretty obviously PS 6 with an EPT. Also pretty obviously not worth it in most lists. When you're putting that many points into a ship already you might as well spend a couple more and get one of the named pilots. I guess it might see a tiny bit of use in lists where points are tight and you don't plan to have target locks for Vessery to use, but that's about it.

TIE/x7: this is incredibly powerful. The defender's best tricks are fast maneuvers, and if you're ever taking slow maneuvers it's probably because you're behind your target and don't need to worry about evade tokens. Having focus + evade stacks helps a lot with the defender's durability-per-point issues. You're still not up to matching Fel's ability to avoid damage or Corran's ability to repair it, but having double Fel's HP and a much better dial than Corran should make up for it.

TIE/D: again, an incredibly powerful ability. We've seen how powerful the A4 title on the y-wing is, and now the defender gets ion + primary but with a longer-range ion cannon and a better primary weapon. And with the tractor beam you get to re-live the good old days of TIE Fighter and tractor beam a target into a fatal primary shot. Vessery is going to love this, with his ability to get target locks on both attacks if you set it up right. The only real downside is that the TIE/x7 title is so powerful that it's going to be very hard to take anything else.

Tractor beam: probably not very useful on its own, since a conventional weapon can inflict damage and/or burn tokens that effectively reduce the target's agility. And an ion cannon can set up better damage next turn by letting you maneuver into a guaranteed shot even if the target's green dice are intact. But with the right support it's going to be nasty. The TIE/D title card makes up for the lack of damage with a primary weapon attack, and there are probably other cases where you can build around it successfully. And hey, it's cheap!

Tomax Bren: wow. PS 8 is good. Re-using one-use EPTs is amazing. Crack shot every turn is great, and is only 25 points! But then, thinking beyond the obvious, what about adrenaline rush or lightning reflexes to give him ridiculous maneuverability? The only real downside is he's still just a TIE bomber, with only six crit-vulnerable HP and two green dice. It might be tempting to load him down with upgrades, but I suspect that's going to be a newbie trap.

Gamma Squadron veteran: it's efficient, sure, but where is this going to see much use? Bombs don't get anything out of the EPT slot, and missile/torpedo lists don't seem to be good enough even with a generic EPT carrier. I mean, we haven't exactly seen a-wing missile spam doing anything competitively, and the a-wing has a similar EPT generic option. So, I think it's going to be a case of doing its job very well but suffering from that job being one that nobody needs.

TIE Shuttle: this has some interesting options. 18 points for a tactician ship is just begging to be exploited, and Bren with crack shot doesn't necessarily need those weapon slots to be effective. But will it be more than just a gimmick? A TIE bomber is cheap for a reason, and shuttles have a much better stat line for a modest point increase if you want a cheap crew carrier. It's also a bit disappointing that what seems like the best way to use the TIE bomber is going to be taking away all of its weapons!

Long-range scanners: garbage. Helps your alpha strike on paper, but you're openly telling your opponent who the target is going to be and giving them a chance to move that ship out of danger. And since you lose the ability to get target locks at close range you're crippling your ability to deliver the second shot. I just can't see how that's going to be an acceptable price to pay, especially when alpha strike lists are already pretty weak.

Thought on the TIE-D: Grab ruthlessness, and you are bouncing a lot of damage onto nearby ships. Just make sure that you don't get closer than your opponent!

happy happy happy!
Is this to make up for the (perhaps) lackluster showing for the Imperials in Wave 8?
My guess is that we will see a companion set with the Pilots from the Rogue One movie when that hits theaters a year from now. Wouldn't it be nice to see a Scum Veterans as well?

 Anpu-adom wrote:
happy happy happy!
Is this to make up for the (perhaps) lackluster showing for the Imperials in Wave 8?
My guess is that we will see a companion set with the Pilots from the Rogue One movie when that hits theaters a year from now. Wouldn't it be nice to see a Scum Veterans as well?

Empire is doing rather well recently. Assault Carrier is going to boost the basic TIE swarm and make it more interesting than before. SS Thread trackers from the INQ tie are a nice boost to the bombers, which already have seen some love from the Punisher, and now this ACE set. TIE Defender is getting two great titles that go in opposite directions- cheaper and more evasive or heavier hitting, as an alternate to the HLC caddy it is primarily used for now.

I'm planning on getting 2 boxes of this as soon as MM puts it up for preorder.

Now I am hoping for Wave 9 to include the TIE/SF and/or TIE Aggressor to give the empire a turret mount ship. Make wave 9 a 5 ship wave, one for each (sub) faction. would love a TIE/SF, TIE Aggressor, Skipray Blastboat as a heavy bomber for Scum (comparable to K-Wing or Punisher in role of heavy hitter and expensive), H-6 for Rebels and something new for Resistence.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Now I am hoping for Wave 9 to include the TIE/SF and/or TIE Aggressor to give the empire a turret mount ship. Make wave 9 a 5 ship wave, one for each (sub) faction. would love a TIE/SF, TIE Aggressor, Skipray Blastboat as a heavy bomber for Scum (comparable to K-Wing or Punisher in role of heavy hitter and expensive), H-6 for Rebels and something new for Resistence.

Screw the TIE Gluelotsofstufftogetherandcallitanewship and give us the assault gunboat and missile boat! FFS, we even have SLAM in the game and you can't have SLAM without the ship it was designed for!

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
happy happy happy!
Is this to make up for the (perhaps) lackluster showing for the Imperials in Wave 8?
My guess is that we will see a companion set with the Pilots from the Rogue One movie when that hits theaters a year from now. Wouldn't it be nice to see a Scum Veterans as well?

Empire is doing rather well recently. Assault Carrier is going to boost the basic TIE swarm and make it more interesting than before. SS Thread trackers from the INQ tie are a nice boost to the bombers, which already have seen some love from the Punisher, and now this ACE set. TIE Defender is getting two great titles that go in opposite directions- cheaper and more evasive or heavier hitting, as an alternate to the HLC caddy it is primarily used for now.

I'm planning on getting 2 boxes of this as soon as MM puts it up for preorder.

Now I am hoping for Wave 9 to include the TIE/SF and/or TIE Aggressor to give the empire a turret mount ship. Make wave 9 a 5 ship wave, one for each (sub) faction. would love a TIE/SF, TIE Aggressor, Skipray Blastboat as a heavy bomber for Scum (comparable to K-Wing or Punisher in role of heavy hitter and expensive), H-6 for Rebels and something new for Resistence.

This, oh so much this. Way I see it, both Rebs and Imps got two Ships from Rebels with Wave 8. It just Happens that the Gozanti is too big, and the Imperials are getting it early. I'll hold off on Wishlisting until after I see the new Movie, but for now the Missile boat is definitely on my list.

Given that I've seen people do surprisingly well with three delta defenders with a mix of flechette and ion cannons, they've just got a lot nastier with the TIE/D title; getting an extra three attacks per turn.

There are many other combinations possible, but that jumps at me right off the bat. Using the X7 title properly will require a bit more skill because you can't afford to slow down!

Long Range Scanners.... yeah, it seems a bit random. At first I assumed (wrongly) that it was a sensor slot, not a modification.

I dunno. It does get rid of the issue of getting locks for your initial volley, but gives you a problem for subsequent ones.
That said, Gamma Squadron Veterans have an elite pilot talent.

Long-range scanners: garbage. Helps your alpha strike on paper, but you're openly telling your opponent who the target is going to be and giving them a chance to move that ship out of danger. And since you lose the ability to get target locks at close range you're crippling your ability to deliver the second shot. I just can't see how that's going to be an acceptable price to pay, especially when alpha strike lists are already pretty weak.

Long Range Scanners + Deadeye works perfectly. Deadeye on a generic bomber goes a long way to covering off the problems anyway, but since LRS are free, you might as well take it, because then you can snap a lock on turn one on a primary target, letting you get a focused missile off if that target is stupid enough to get caught in range and arc.

locarno24 wrote:
Using the X7 title properly will require a bit more skill because you can't afford to slow down!

That depends on the situation. Remember that many times when you want to go slow in a defender it's because you've just k-turned behind your target and don't want to overshoot. And if you're already behind them then there's a good chance that you don't need to evade because they won't be shooting back.

Long Range Scanners + Deadeye works perfectly.

Not really. If you're using deadeye then you don't need a target lock to fire, so LRS does very little. And now you've spent your EPT on a "what if" thing instead of consistent firepower upgrades like predator or crack shot.

but since LRS are free

But they aren't free. They take away your ability to target lock at range 1-2, which is a huge penalty. This is something where you have to think very carefully about whether or not you want to take it, not an upgrade that you throw on just because you can.

LRS on your Bomber Ace (Particularly Jonus) with Thread Tracers on the initial volley, granting target locks outside of 3. That is one alpha strike that will be hard to avoid, and good pilots will be able to pull it off at Range 3. Jonus doesn't care if he gets target locks anyway... his ability isn't about him shooting secondary weapons anyway.

I see it getting a fair amount of play in Epic.

Anyone able to read the reference text about the Tractor beam?

EDIT: Never mind, found it.

Combat Phase: The agility value of your ship is reduced by 1 for each tractor beam token, to a minimum of 0.

End Phase: Remove all tractor beam tokens from the ship.

It seems it is targeting Arc Dodgers, but will 3 attack really put tokens on ships like that? Will this be the Imperial version of control?

Something else to notice... they are repeating pilot abilities. Maarek Steele in a Defender and Deathrain in a Bomber. Very cool.

Maarek Steele with a Mangler Cannon makes me giddy inside.

It seems it is targeting Arc Dodgers, but will 3 attack really put tokens on ships like that? Will this be the Imperial version of control?

Not really. That is; it's not going to reliably hit something like a squint. Where it's worth it is against something like an X-wing; 2 agility is just good enough to be worth reducing for a turn, but not good enough that you can't be confident of hitting it.

On an upgraded defender, of course, it's essentially a 'free shot' anyway.

I don't think the mist hunter is ever likely to fire its tractor beam, but I essentially see the tractor beam as a 1 point charge to add barrel roll to its action bar. Which isn't that bad a trade when you think about it.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Something else to notice... they are repeating pilot abilities. Maarek Steele in a Defender and Deathrain in a Bomber. Very cool.

I want Deathrain in a Firespray!... lol

Using his ability usually sets you at an odd position where you don't have a ship to fire at, a rear arc would be nice!

Can someone explain to me slowly what the heck Tomax Bren's ability does?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Can someone explain to me slowly what the heck Tomax Bren's ability does?

Cards such as Lightning Reflexes, Crack Shot, or Adrenalin Rush all require you to discard them for a one use effect. He essentially gets to keep using it.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Can someone explain to me slowly what the heck Tomax Bren's ability does?

He gets to reuse single use EPT's. Crackshot every turn.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Can someone explain to me slowly what the heck Tomax Bren's ability does?

Step 1: Use an Elite Pilot Talent that requires you to discard it.
Step 2: Discard the Elite Pilot Talent (Flip it Face Down)
Step 3: Trigger Tomax Brens ability to flip the EPT back up.

You may now use the EPT again. Short version is that you do not actually discard the EPT, but it is worded in such a way that it may interact with other rules that come up at a later date.

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Can someone explain to me slowly what the heck Tomax Bren's ability does?

Step 1: Use an Elite Pilot Talent that requires you to discard it.
Step 2: Discard the Elite Pilot Talent (Flip it Face Down)
Step 3: Trigger Tomax Brens ability to flip the EPT back up.

You may now use the EPT again. Short version is that you do not actually discard the EPT, but it is worded in such a way that it may interact with other rules that come up at a later date.

Yep.

I feel like Scum should get these bizarre "work around" rules that lie right on the edge of the rules... lol

None the less crack shot all day!

"flip face up" doesn't seem like an intuitive way to phrase reversing a discard, but okay.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
"flip face up" doesn't seem like an intuitive way to phrase reversing a discard, but okay.

It's because of tournament margin of victory scoring. To make it clear that points for an upgrade aren't scored until the ship carrying it is destroyed the rules replace "discard" with "flip face down and consider out of play". So flipping the card face up is the natural reverse of it.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
"flip face up" doesn't seem like an intuitive way to phrase reversing a discard, but okay.

Not really, it directly references the written rules.

Page 20 in the Rules Reference book:

UPGRADE CARDS
[...]
Some Upgrade cards have one or more of the following traits in their card text:
[...]
When an Upgrade card is discarded, it is flipped facedown. The card is out of play for all purposes except when determining the total squad point cost of the ship to which it was equipped. If an Upgrade card is flipped faceup by a game effect, it returns to play equipped to the same ship.

I love it when the right hand knows what the left hand is doing at a company. It is almost as if they had this card in mind when they updated the rules last September.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
I love it when the right hand knows what the left hand is doing at a company. It is almost as if they had this card in mind when they updated the rules last September.

I imagine that they did.

I believe it was shortly after Wave 6, lead designer Alex Davey said in an interview that they already had Wave 7 through 9 planned.

 easypeasylemonsquezy wrote:

I feel like Scum should get these bizarre "work around" rules that lie right on the edge of the rules... lol

If only FFG agreed with you, instead of using scum as a testing ground for upgrades for other fleets.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
I love it when the right hand knows what the left hand is doing at a company. It is almost as if they had this card in mind when they updated the rules last September.

I imagine that they did.

I believe it was shortly after Wave 6, lead designer Alex Davey said in an interview that they already had Wave 7 through 9 planned.

Yeah, and hence why we are only seeing a couple Force Awakens things right now, with the 6-ship "Wave 8". They had to add them in around their pre-planned release schedule.

Okay am I the only one that thinks the red Defender looks ugly as sin? And I like the red interceptor. Reminds me of SWG, same as the classic Defender. But this thing is an abomination.

More I think about it Long Range Scanners kind of sucks for non-epic play.

There are only 3 ships that can take it, Punisher, bomber and K-wing... they're dedicated ordinance ships. If your going to take ordinance you will take quite a bit due to extra munitions. But then with this card you are very limited on ordinance use at range 1-2 that hurts A LOT on a dedicated ordinance ship.

I could think Redline could use it decently since he gets 2 target locks, also a TLT K-wing could use it, or could add weapons engineer to get two target locks too. But on the Tie Bomber... I'll pass... lame. THIS IS SUPPOSE TO HELP THE BOMBER

The way its worded it trumps xx-23 Tracers and FCS making them far less useful.

Slave 1 Firespray could take it, can't really think of a good reason for it though.

If the ships that could take it were faster, and as such able to get beyond range 2 relatively quickly I could see a use for the scanner, as is I probably won't use it

Yeah, I don't see long range Scanners being useful unless they release a Missile/Torpedo which can shoot guys past range 3.

Which I don't see happening.