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I am considering buying into X-wing. I am leery about starting new games, because I've been burned a bit to many times. Is the game balanced? Is it a pay to win type game? If I don't buy the latest stuff will I auto lose? Can any force set up win? Can a force with no upgrades beet a force loaded with upgrades dependent on player skill, and the dice? Can a force that is mostly upgrades take on a mass force with no upgrades and have a chance at winning?


I really like the idea of Armada more, but it doesn't seem to have any players near me.

 megatrons2nd wrote:

Is the game balanced?

Yes

Is it a pay to win type game?

Not really. There are upgrades which perform well on some ships that are actually included with others, and if you play at sanctioned or organised events you are required to have all of the cards in your list, even if that means having 3 copies of one upgrade that comes in a completely different ship that you're not using.

The flip side to that is that all the play info is freely available, and in a friendly environment you're unlikely to encounter an issue with printouts or other proxies.

There definitely isn't an issue where the big ships (and consequently the most expensive) are just better than the smaller, cheaper, ships. Taking buying upgrades out of the equation, the Worlds winning list would have cost ~$50.

Plus the design team work at redressing issues, so even if you do buy a ship that isn't crash hot just for upgrade cards, the odds are the designers will revisit that ship at a later date to give it a buff, so you'll nearly always get value from any ship you buy.

If I don't buy the latest stuff will I auto lose?

No, as mentioned the design team will revisit older designs if they feel they're falling behind, and plenty of the winning is done on the table, if you're out of arc, you can't be shot, so fly well and it doesn't matter what the difference in power is between two ships.

Can any force set up win?

Maybe. A list put together with thought and care will always have an advantage over one just thoughtlessly thrown together, but as mentioned, play well and anything is possible.

Can a force with no upgrades beet a force loaded with upgrades dependent on player skill, and the dice? Can a force that is mostly upgrades take on a mass force with no upgrades and have a chance at winning?

List theory tells us that overspending on upgrades is nearly always a bad idea. "Fat" ships (very heavily upgraded ships, often Han in the Falcon or other larger ships which typically benefit from more upgrade slots.) Equally one of the early dominant lists was a horde of basic TIEs. Certain styles will be at an advantage over others, but there's no such thing as an auto win on lists alone.

I really like the idea of Armada more, but it doesn't seem to have any players near me.

I find Armada the inferior game currently, YMMV

 Azreal13 wrote:
Taking buying upgrades out of the equation, the Worlds winning list would have cost ~$50.

Paul's winning list cost $294 (MSRP of course), so while not crazy expensive definitely isn't $50. The cheapest of the Top 8 lists is $104.

But you're right, this isn't a "pay to win" game like MTG or something. More importantly, flying Paul Heaver's winning list isn't an autowin either, it takes considerable skill to do it well.

It's a T70, YY and a Z.

Taking notice of "taking buying upgrades out of the equation" how do you get to $294?

 Azreal13 wrote:
It's a T70, YY and a Z.

Taking notice of "taking buying upgrades out of the equation" how do you get to $294?

It fails to really give any impression of how much running that list competitively would actually cost.

I had already made the point that you have to have every copy of an upgrade card when playing at sanctioned events, even if it meant buying a ship you've no use for, I was trying to make the exact opposite point which was in a friendly environment with proxies you can put the Worlds Winning list on the table for next to no money.

Is the game balanced?

Yes

Is it a pay to win type game?

Not really, there is no auto win button. Lots of good options. Player skill is needed. If playing casual you can save alot of money by proxying upgrades. If playing in tournaments you will need real versions.

If I don't buy the latest stuff will I auto lose?

No, but youll find alot of new stuff comes will other cool stuff you might want. If playing friendly even less of an issue due to proxy.

Can any force set up win?

Blanket statement, Yes. That said some lists are more effective at different things.

Can a force with no upgrades beet a force loaded with upgrades dependent on player skill, and the dice?

Blanket statement, Yes. A list can be poorly flown list or incorrectly built will be bloated with useless points or dice fail you.

Can a force that is mostly upgrades take on a mass force with no upgrades and have a chance at winning

Same answer as last question.

TL;DR
All in all I would boil most of the game down to player skill and a having some luck.

Here's the results of a 267 person tournament. While you see a lot of Corrans, you also see a lot of other stuff.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/192577-2015-worlds-results/?p=1874001

 Azreal13 wrote:
It's a T70, YY and a Z.

Taking notice of "taking buying upgrades out of the equation" how do you get to $294?

You can't play his list and only spend $50 and saying you can isn't accurate at all. Those four ships alone cost $60 ($85 if you want to fly Poe because he is only available in the new core set), then you have to buy of the expansions to get all of the cards needed to make the list.

I get what you were saying about potentially playing on the cheap (even though your point wasn't as clear as you seem to think it was), but being honest about how much this game can really cost is better in the long run.

You'll want one or a few of each ship in due course, just so you don't fall in a rut (unless you want to focus on one list and try to become the best on a competitive scene with that list), so you can play with other people, and so you can collect all the pretty dresses... I mean cards.

I usually run a list until I win a few games with it, and then I change it. I know a guy who only runs a Corran/Super Dash list, because he's comfortable with it, and was very successful with it, until recently.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
It's a T70, YY and a Z.

Taking notice of "taking buying upgrades out of the equation" how do you get to $294?

You can't play his list and only spend $50 and saying you can isn't accurate at all. Those four ships alone cost $60 ($85 if you want to fly Poe because he is only available in the new core set), then you have to buy of the expansions to get all of the cards needed to make the list.

I get what you were saying about potentially playing on the cheap (even though your point wasn't as clear as you seem to think it was), but being honest about how much this game can really cost is better in the long run.

To clarify for the OP: in a casual play setting, you really only need the ships themselves to play a particular loadout. I've never encountered anyone who gave me a stink-eye for using proxy upgrade cards. If you find good deals, you could get that World Champion list for ~$50, but the MSRP is $85.

As soon as you move into the tournament scene, you need to actually bring the cards, which would require a $294 buy in to get the various expansions that the cards are in (the Rebel Transport being a big one, as it has the stress bot). You could also do what I do, and just borrow cards from fellow players ahead of time. For example, I'm the only player in my area who has a Lambda shuttle, which is also the only expansion pack with the Sensor Jammer, a valuable upgrade card. If a tournament is going on near me, I almost always get a request to borrow that card. In turn, I'm often borrowing R3-A2 and Feedback Array cards from others.

Buying all the expansion packs you need for tournament lists is not "cheap", but it's not like you get nothing in return. Buying all the expansions you need to build Paul Heaver's world championship list also gives you the components to build many other competitive lists. It's not like in 40k, where you spend hundreds of dollars to build one particular army list.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
I really like the idea of Armada more, but it doesn't seem to have any players near me.

I see you're in Crawfordsville - there are almost certainly Armada players in Indianapolis, if you're willing to make that drive. Otherwise, you would have to do the legwork in your local area to generate interest. That would involve... buying everything, basically, so that you can provide new opponents with an armada to play with. The game is very impressive looking on the table, and is sure to draw interest if you play it at a FLGS.

Exactly so.

You often find that a pack has upgrades that another ship 'wants' - but for precisely that reason, a player will often loan or trade it to you - if you're part of a small community of people, it becomes much more affordable for everyone to get all the cards they need.

And yes, you can win with essentially starting squads. No-one, not even after wave 8, wants to find themselves staring at a squad of 8 bog-basic TIE fighters flown by someone like Paul Heaver. FFG have a tendancy to release 'fixes' for the weaker ships, but they're actually pretty damn good at making these fixes add options to a squad rather than 'leapfrog' the previous 'best'.


The Metagame does evolve*, but you'll still find a simple squad flown by someone who knows what they're doing can still eat most opponents up to and including store championship level alive.

In short, pick any ship you 'like' from the films/games/books, and someone can come up with a squad you can do fairly well with. Not necessarily a squad of a single ship type, but something clearly built on that ship.




* Originally swarms of basic dudes, which were slowly replaced by arc-dodging aces and/or big ships with turrets.

The TIE Phantom's ridiculous maneuvers put a nail in the swarm, and the heavily upgraded YT-1300 ("Fat Han") did the same to the Phantom.

These have, in turn, made way a lot to ace heavy fighters with regenerating shields and stress mechanics (on the Rebel side) and ridiculously manoeuvrable aces with dice-modifying shenanigans (on the Imperial side).

Another thing, outside of proxies, to bear in mind is you can usually nab upgrade cards off from ebay, some are a little expensive but its helpful if those upgrades come with higher end 'epic' ships

I tell all of the new players this... you don't need to buy everything and you don't need it right now. FFG has priced this well... it is easily within my "Grab one when I'm at the game store" price point. You'll collect one or two of everything eventually. Even then... the total is less than buying and having a 2000 point 40k army "Pro Painted".
FFG has also made it so that each expansion has value even if you have all the others (except the Scyk... don't buy the Scyk).

Unless you want mangler cannons.

winterdyne wrote:
Unless you want mangler cannons.

That card comes in the IG-2000 expansion as well.

Scyks also have Stealth Device, previously only available in the Slave I expansion from Wave 2 and they are the only source of the Flechette Cannon (which isn't popular anyway).

ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

winterdyne wrote:
Unless you want mangler cannons.

That card comes in the IG-2000 expansion as well.

Scyks also have Stealth Device, previously only available in the Slave I expansion from Wave 2 and they are the only source of the Flechette Cannon (which isn't popular anyway).

Oh, and that reminds me of another point. FFG has done a good job recently of putting upgrade cards in at least 2 expansions.

Okay, took the plunge. Have the red printed core box on it's way from ebay, and have purchased 3 other fighters. I will have:

2 Standard Tie Fighters
2 Standard X-wings
1 Tie Advanced
1 Y-wing


Does the core box fighters come with the same upgrade cards as their respective expansion versions?

As to ships I am looking at, Slave-1 and Millennium Falcon are high on my wants list. As are most Tie Fighter variants, and the on screen Rebel Fighters.

How does the scum and villainy faction work? Can either side take them like mercenaries, or are they their own faction? And why is the Slave-1 Imperial when it should be Scum and Villainy?

The core fighter expansions come with different upgrades, chiefly two pilots, Wedge in the X and Howlrunner (IIRC) in the TIE. They're both v useful pilots to have.

Scum is its own faction, with its own ships. Some dupe the Rebel or Imperial models, but with different pilots or rules. If you pick up the Most Wanted expansion you not only get the cards, inserts, etc for the ships included, but also for things like the Firespray, making it dual faction. While the named pilots are the same, their rules differ depending on one faction they're flying for. The Ys and the Zs have unique pilots all of their own.

Replying directory to the OP:

I highly recommend X Wing. I am relatively new to the game, but without putting forward much money at all (compared to other tabletop games) I have a variety of cool ships, all of which are viable.

Overall the game seems smartly built, with solid mechanics and good ideas on how to make things work. I am very happy with it.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
And why is the Slave-1 Imperial when it should be Scum and Villainy?

Because the S&V faction didn't exist when the Firespray was first released. The Most Wanted expansion contains pilot cards for S&V Firespray pilots to go with the imperial ship model.

Where are duplicate cards located? There are a few designs that I just don't want, and some that are okay but not high on my list of getting.

I just can't stand the K-wing design, are it's upgrade cards found elsewhere? Are those cards useful on other ships.

I like most Tie fighters, so will probably end up getting them all, but the Punisher(I think, the one that is a Tie bomber on steroids) and the Tie defender are not high on my get it list.

Haven't liked most of the Scum & Villainy ships I've seen so far either, so will probably fall in the last ships I'd get area, if at all.

Love X-wings, both versions look cool, Headhunter, A-wings, B-wings, and Y-wings. The E-wing is...okay. I don't like the HWK-290 either, so will probably not get that one.

Large figures. The Falcon, Slave 1, and Decimator are the ones I want the most, with the Lambda class shuttle in my list of likes as well just further down.

Giant ships, are just not in the cards for me. To expensive, and not enough play capability from their purchase for me.

So, if I never get a K-wing, HWK-290, any/all of the scum and villainy, or any of the unlisted large ships, and all the giant ships, will I not get some upgrade cards, that I can use on the other ships? AKA I don't need any K-wing only cards, so don't count those upgrades.

Some upgrades are exclusive to certain expansions, which isn't great if you're adamant you're not going to fly that ship, although honestly given that there's no painting or assembly, and that single expansions are relatively little cash, you may find you pick them up and give them a go anyway.

You can buy singles via eBay and the odd online trader, but those that are really desirable have a price to match, often to the point where you may just as well throw in the extra and buy the whole ship.

There are one or two like C3PO and Emperor Palpatine which are expensive, but cheaper to buy singles of than the whole epic ship (Corvette and Raider respectively) but most one ,any as well just buy the expansion.

Check this out

http://xwing-builder.co.uk/build

Not only is it a good squadron builder that's updated promptly (he often has the cards available once they're previewed) but there's an option to see all the upgrades by expansion in the tools section so you can see what goes where.

Tanks Azreal13 that is useful.

Question, there are a couple astromechs that I have not been able to find on there. Are they exclusive to a specific faction or ship? I think it was the unstable astromech and another that I saw cards for on ebay, but didn't see on that site. There are a lot of cards limited to one expansion, at least according to what I found so far.

Now, to figure out where I want to go from here. Which faction is the most forgiving for new players? Basically, I like the 2 big factions, so either way is good for me to go.

Which faction allows for the most ships at any one time?

Is it better to get a big ship, or multiple small ships for learning? I will eventually collect most of the ships anyway, just need to focus so I can build usable forces to begin with.


I should note, that I learn a game better being thrown in the trenches, so to speak, and play full size games straight out the gate.



Never mind. Found them, they are "salvaged Astromechs" and are all in the most wanted set. Now I need to figure out if they are somehow different, or can be used as an astromech anywhere.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Question, there are a couple astromechs that I have not been able to find on there. Are they exclusive to a specific faction or ship? I think it was the unstable astromech and another that I saw cards for on ebay, but didn't see on that site.

You might be thinking of the unhinged astromech, which is a salvaged astromech. Rebel and scum "astromechs" are actually two different upgrade types with different icons.

Which faction is the most forgiving for new players?

Rebels, probably. The best imperial ships depend on out-maneuvering your opponent to stay alive and/or tight formation flying to maximize firepower, both of which take player skill and experience. Soontir Fel, for example, is a really good option in competitive games, but has very little margin for error. Scum have the TLT-spam list that is really forgiving, but the faction as a whole depends on special tricks, often in the form of one-shot upgrades, to make up for weaker stat lines. Rebels have a lot of ships that are pretty straightforward, with raw HP over green dice and maneuverability.

Which faction allows for the most ships at any one time?

All three factions can take 8-ship lists, the maximum possible. Imperials are

Is it better to get a big ship, or multiple small ships for learning?

Depends on your goal. A big turret ship is straightforward to fly and will help make up for your lack of experience if winning asap is your goal, but it can also let you avoid learning how to fly ships without 360* arcs. Multiple small ships will give you a tougher learning curve up front, but you'll learn more in the long run.

Worth mentioning that large base ships can be straightforward to fly, they're very different to fly from small bases. Because of the front to back measuring large bases move a lot quicker than small bases (a large base is the equivalent of 4 small, 2x2) so they're in many ways a different discipline to fly, despite often being more forgiving.

Excellent information for me everybody. Thanks. Looks like I will be concentrating on the fighters for a bit. May still get the Falcon and Slave 1 early just because.

My general play style in most of the games I have played are to hit hard and fast, then move away. Doesn't always work of course, but stick and move is my typical play style, both on console, and the several table top games I've played through the years. Looks like Imperial stuff will fit my play style a bit more.

What is the fastest ship speed? I found only one with a 5 on it so far, from my poking around, and it seems that 4 is normal, is their anything slower than 4?

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Excellent information for me everybody. Thanks. Looks like I will be concentrating on the fighters for a bit. May still get the Falcon and Slave 1 early just because.

My general play style in most of the games I have played are to hit hard and fast, then move away. Doesn't always work of course, but stick and move is my typical play style, both on console, and the several table top games I've played through the years. Looks like Imperial stuff will fit my play style a bit more.

What is the fastest ship speed? I found only one with a 5 on it so far, from my poking around, and it seems that 4 is normal, is their anything slower than 4?

5 is the highest speed possible on a dial. Some ships also have a boost action, which adds another speed 1 move on top (making it about equivalent to a "7"). Most ships will have at least a speed 4 maneuver, but there are a lot of ships with Red 4's (B-wing, Y-wing), and the K-wing and IG-88 cap out at speed 3.

Scum as a rule tend to be slower than Rebels and Empire.

As noted, the fastest move is either a small ship straight 5 with boost, or a large ship straight 4 with boost - both equivalent to a 'speed 7' straight.

You can move slightly faster if you don't care about ending up pointed the same way - one trick TIE interceptors love is to do a full-speed straight, then boost turning inwards, then barrel roll (now slightly forwards), which is good for another base length of move or so.

Yes it is PAY TO WIN. A lot of people buy ships not because of the ships, but because of the cards. Unless otherwise specified any card can be used for ANY ship.

Even the Tantive IV cards can be used for any ship C-3P0 for example. Actually only way to get C-3PO if I am not mistaken.

So if you don't have a specific ship with specific cards, you could have a hard time. So you could end up buying something you like but in 40K terms you could be buying Chaos Space Marines while someone else is using Eldar allied with Tau allied with Necrons.

It can be balanced, but it's us Geeks and Nerds playing and we find a way to break it and cause other Geeks and Nerds to become upset. Thing is, we don't get upset as in GW terms of how people get upset.