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I know in days of old IRL in the medieval times, people could beg for sanctuary in the church, where the long arm of the law couldn't reach them, but somehow I doubt it's the same in 40k? ..or?

Well, in 40k the church IS the law...

hmmmm I think yes and no

The Church could protect you from local laws and such and maybe even the Arbites if they really wanted to but they would need to be a good reason for the latter. On the other hand Church and State often clash and certain members of the Church would quite enjoy showing up the locals and proving their power.

Its not going to work against the Inquisition (at least not often) and the Astartes might not care where you are.

Also depends on who you are and why you are seeking sanctuary I would think

so usual answer - its 40k so it depends.........

 Mr Morden wrote:
hmmmm I think yes and no

The Church could protect you from local laws and such and maybe even the Arbites if they really wanted to but they would need to be a good reason for the latter. On the other hand Church and State often clash and certain members of the Church would quite enjoy showing up the locals and proving their power.

Its not going to work against the Inquisition (at least not often) and the Astartes might not care where you are.

Also depends on who you are and why you are seeking sanctuary I would think

so usual answer - its 40k so it depends.........

I had hoped for an answer such as this, delightful foundation for drama! Thanks!

konst80hummel wrote:
Well, in 40k the church IS the law...

Not quite. There's Imperial Law (concerning religion, the tithe, military service and so on) that not even the Ecclesiarchy (usually) dares or cares to oppose openly. Part of religious dogma IS following the law - one funny example was from the Enforcer trilogy where a clergyman complains about an Arbites operation. True, the Arbites did allow suspected subversives to disturb a religious service but it was in order to catch the leader. The Arbites in charge felt like being diplomatic when shouted at and simply told the priest that she'd be perfectly justified in executing him on the spot for speaking against the enforcers of the Emperor's Law. The Cardinal would likely be upset but he'd still praise the execution in public.

So more precisely the Church backs the Law, and the Law in many cases backs the Church.

As for the original question I'll second Mr Morden - it all depends. The Church can easily defy local law, but to defy the Arbites would mean much higher stakes and defying the Inquisition even higher still. Ofc, a priest with extensive knowledge of Imperial Law could certainly come up with a good reason for a suspect to remain in his custody. There's seldom so much Arbites presence on a world that they'd be willing to storm a major Church holding, and the Adepta Sororitas guarding it aren't going to ask for a warrant before returning fire.

In The Kaban Project story by Graham McNeill where Adept Pallas Ravachol is hunted on Mars by an assassin after discovering the Kaban Machine.

I won't go into the whole story but will provide you this quote

Ravachol cast the oil around himself and shouted, 'In the name of the Adept Malevolus, I claim the ancient right of Sanctuary within this temple! I claim this by right of past sponsorship by the Master of the Forge!'

No sooner had the words left his mouth than a pair of cone-shaped shield projectors mounted on the ceiling swivelled to face him. He looked up and saw a nimbus of green light build within the cones.

A shriek of blazing energy flashed towards him from the ceiling. He turned and cried out in terror as he heard a screeching yell from behind him. The razor edge of the assassin's energy sword exploded in a flare of brightly discharging energy as it impacted on the newly generated conversion field.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
In The Kaban Project story by Graham McNeill where Adept Pallas Ravachol is hunted on Mars by an assassin after discovering the Kaban Machine.

I won't go into the whole story but will provide you this quote

Ravachol cast the oil around himself and shouted, 'In the name of the Adept Malevolus, I claim the ancient right of Sanctuary within this temple! I claim this by right of past sponsorship by the Master of the Forge!'

No sooner had the words left his mouth than a pair of cone-shaped shield projectors mounted on the ceiling swivelled to face him. He looked up and saw a nimbus of green light build within the cones.

A shriek of blazing energy flashed towards him from the ceiling. He turned and cried out in terror as he heard a screeching yell from behind him. The razor edge of the assassin's energy sword exploded in a flare of brightly discharging energy as it impacted on the newly generated conversion field.

ah but now we are talking machine cult rather than eccelisarchy

The application of sanctuary in 40K is probably just as complex as the application of sanctuary in real life. It depends vastly on your crime, your political support, the influence of the clergy in your area, the popularity and support of the population to the forces of the law, etc. The Ecclesiarchy itself will offer relatively little safety from Imperial Law since the Imperium is a theocracy. The Church and the Law are pretty much the same thing (except if you go down to local laws). In all cases, for the sanctuary to apply to someone, he needs the support of people or institutions that can present a threat. Being in a church won't protect you. Being in a church with a detachment of Sister of Battle that are unwilling to let the law enforcement troops pass is going to guaranty you a measure of protection. In fact, if I was a faithful citizen of the Imperium trying to gain protection against corrupted officials, I would not run to seek protection from the Ecclesiarchy, but from one of the paramilitary organisation of the Imperium like the Sisters of the Space Marines themselves should they be around.

"A plea of Innocence is guilty of wasting my time, Guilty!" - Inquisitor Lord Karamazov

In this universe, a Church granting you sanctuary probably just means a AV13 speedbump in Imperial Justice being handed out. That or you would be given "Sanctuary" in the form of a penitent engine or Arcoflagantation.

It... really depends on what crime you are seeking sanctuary for committing, and from whom you are seeking sanctuary from.

The Inquisition? They don't care where you hide. There is no limit to their authority.
The Arbites? They enforce the same Imperial Laws the Ecclesiarchy preaches from the pulpit.
Local enforcers? This is going to depend on the world in question and the relationship between the local political structures and the Ecclesiarchy... it will be a rare Imperial world where the Ecclesiarchy does not have as much (or more) power and influence than the Planetary Governor.

TheWanderer wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
In The Kaban Project story by Graham McNeill where Adept Pallas Ravachol is hunted on Mars by an assassin after discovering the Kaban Machine.

I won't go into the whole story but will provide you this quote

Ravachol cast the oil around himself and shouted, 'In the name of the Adept Malevolus, I claim the ancient right of Sanctuary within this temple! I claim this by right of past sponsorship by the Master of the Forge!'

No sooner had the words left his mouth than a pair of cone-shaped shield projectors mounted on the ceiling swivelled to face him. He looked up and saw a nimbus of green light build within the cones.

A shriek of blazing energy flashed towards him from the ceiling. He turned and cried out in terror as he heard a screeching yell from behind him. The razor edge of the assassin's energy sword exploded in a flare of brightly discharging energy as it impacted on the newly generated conversion field.

ah but now we are talking machine cult rather than eccelisarchy

Well, there was no individual request on a specific religion, just whether sanctuary existed so I provided an example showing that, at least amongst the adepts of the Machine Cult, it does or did. This was before the heresy broke out and, if you have read the story, it didn't seem to matter much at this time anyway

 Pilau Rice wrote:


Well, there was no individual request on a specific religion

The ecclesiarchy is the state religion of the Imperium, by implication when the "church" is talked about its the ecclesiarchy not the machine cult or any other group.

However, you do have a point in that the right of sanctuary existing within one group does, however slightly, support that it would exist in others.

 Psienesis wrote:
It... really depends on what crime you are seeking sanctuary for committing, and from whom you are seeking sanctuary from.

The Inquisition? They don't care where you hide. There is no limit to their authority.
The Arbites? They enforce the same Imperial Laws the Ecclesiarchy preaches from the pulpit.
Local enforcers? This is going to depend on the world in question and the relationship between the local political structures and the Ecclesiarchy... it will be a rare Imperial world where the Ecclesiarchy does not have as much (or more) power and influence than the Planetary Governor.

Yes and no - there are always power plays and egos involved - All Inquisitors have a the theoretical power to order pretty much anyone and anything but in the monolith state that is the Imperium there is often politics involved. We know from all the sources that there is corruption - and not just Chaos influenced. Its going to matter who is involved, who is being upset / humiliated/annoyed and what connections they have - this s covered on numerous occasions in the novels.

An Inquisitor can get killed charging gun blazing into a Sector Cathedral and the Cardinal may have his old Acquaintance the head of the local Inquisitorial conclave back him up for "reasons" - especially if the given Inquisitor is not liked or has previously upset the wrong people by charging in and upsetting the status quo.

Similar with the Arbites - There are so many variables - the Church may even claim jurisdiction on punishing the accused on behalf of the Emperor - but first there will be a long long drawn out trail etc etc.

TheWanderer wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


Well, there was no individual request on a specific religion

The ecclesiarchy is the state religion of the Imperium, by implication when the "church" is talked about its the ecclesiarchy not the machine cult or any other group.

However, you do have a point in that the right of sanctuary existing within one group does, however slightly, support that it would exist in others.

I'm fully aware of that thanks. But the Machine Cult has churches and the Adept in the story was a 'people'. If the OP asked specifically in connection to Imperial worlds only I wouldn't have provided the example.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

TheWanderer wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


Well, there was no individual request on a specific religion

The ecclesiarchy is the state religion of the Imperium, by implication when the "church" is talked about its the ecclesiarchy not the machine cult or any other group.

However, you do have a point in that the right of sanctuary existing within one group does, however slightly, support that it would exist in others.

I'm fully aware of that thanks. But the Machine Cult has churches and the Adept in the story was a 'people'. If the OP asked specifically in connection to Imperial worlds only I wouldn't have provided the example.

It looks like we are understanding his question differently, for me the OP is asking if THE church in 40k would act as the church in medieval times. For me THE church in 40k is the Ecclesiarchy.

He is not asking about A church, he is asking about THE church. That is why I emphasised the issue of the ecclesiarchy being the state religion, meaning it is THE church, rather than any suggestion that you didn't realise that was the case.

That's my interpretation, I can see how yours is different.

The cult of Mars could be the thing you are looking for. The treaty of Mars would protect you if you where ever to be allowed in.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Treaty_of_Olympus

The ship of a powerful rogue trader offers decent protection.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rogue_Trader

If you are willing to leave the imperium and you aren't followed by too powerful individuals then footfall and other similar places could also work.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Footfall

The idea of "sanctuary" is a western/Latin Christian concept, where the Church was an independent, transnational organisation in a power struggle with wordly powers such as kings.

But IoM is more like Islam, where the founder of the religion (ok, the Emperor may not have put himself up as a god) also was a military and political leader, creating the State itself. There is no "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" divide between spiritual and worldly power in IoM, and therefore sanctuary probably never have been created as a concept.

Of course people may search protection in their local church, just as they may search protection from any part of the Imperiums fractured structure (aristocracy, planet governor, military etc) - but the Church doesn't offer anything "extra" that not (for example) the Commissariat would do for a useful contact or to make a statement.

The Cult Mechanicus would be a better comparison - they are just as independent of the IoM as the (western) christian church during medieval times was of the Frankish kings or Lombard Counts. CM may retaliate by withholding technical support, just as the Church could retaliate by not preforming religious services for the king or count.

TheWanderer wrote:

It looks like we are understanding his question differently, for me the OP is asking if THE church in 40k would act as the church in medieval times. For me THE church in 40k is the Ecclesiarchy.

He is not asking about A church, he is asking about THE church. That is why I emphasised the issue of the ecclesiarchy being the state religion, meaning it is THE church, rather than any suggestion that you didn't realise that was the case.

That's my interpretation, I can see how yours is different.

Technically, both the Adeptus Ministorum and the Adeptus Mechanicus are "The Church", as both are sanctioned religious organisations supported by the governance of the Imperium.

Johnstone provides the following seven characteristics of churches:

Johnstone, 1997. Religion in Society: A Sociology of Religion. Upper Sadle River, New Jersey: Prentice Hall. wrote:

Claim universality, include all members of the society within their ranks, and have a strong tendency to equate "citizenship" with "membership"
Exercise religious monopoly and try to eliminate religious competition
Are very closely allied with the state and secular powers; frequently there is overlapping of responsibilities and much mutual reinforcement
Are extensively organized as a hierarchical bureaucratic institution with a complex division of labor
Employ professional, full-time clergy who possess the appropriate credentials of education and formal ordination
Primarily gain new members through natural reproduction and the socialization of children into the ranks
Allow for diversity by creating different groups within the church (e.g., orders of nuns or monks) rather than through the formation of new religions

I would suspect the Ecclesiarchy may well offer sanctuary from even the Arbites. However...

... the Ecclesiarchy would certainly listen to the charges levied against the person seeking sanctuary. The Arbites (or whomever) would probably act as a prosecutor at some kind of tribunal to determine whether granting Sanctuary was the Emperor's Will.

If there is so much as a whiff of heresy, or even impiety about the individual, the supplicant would likely be handed over to his pursuers posthaste.

If the Ecclesiarchy decided the Emperor was Not Amused by the supplicant, said individual would doubtless be handed over to the Agency seeking his/her capture. Or burned at the stake by the Ecclesiarchy itself.

Keep in mind that the Ecclesiarchy, while incredibly powerful, does not seek to alienate fellow Ministora. Assuming that granting sanctuary is deemed worth the cost of angering another Ministorum...

... a supplicant most likely would have to take holy vows and dedicate themselves to the Ecclesiarchy for the rest of their days.

... if a supplicant was previously rich and/or powerful, all lands, titles and wealth would likely be forfeit to the Ecclesiarchy.

Etc, etc. Things are a LOT more complicated in 40k than they were in your bog-standard kingdom on Medieval Earth. Expect the answer to be steeped in tradition and buried in red tape, possibly for decades, while the supplicant waits for a resolution. Possibly until long after he/she was dead.

My two cents.

P.S. Edits! Dat grammar and autocorrect! Hate 'em both...

"There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt."

The Emperor's law is sacred. To defy or obstruct the Emperor's law and the Arbites is to defy or obstruct the Emperor Himself. If someone were on the run from the Arbites, and the local Ecclessiarchy gave him shelter, then that would be heresy, and said local Ecclessiarchy would be purged, and its congregation probably as well, for good measure.

But since the Arbites only really deal with high-level enforcement (their main task is watching planetary governors) or exceptional circumstances, such a situation will be very unlikely. Someone on the run from the Arbites will pretty much always be a very high profile criminal. Normal daily law enforcement falls to local law enforcement forces and that could be a different story. It would heavily depend on the local circumstances and customs of the world in question. But not with the Arbites, their duty is a sacred one and their judgement is absolute. There are no trials, no appeals, no arguing. If the Arbites decide you die, you die. No authority in the Imperium can change that.


Another thing, the Cult Mechanicus is not the church or religion of the Imperium. The Cult Mechanicus is the church of the AdMech. The AdMech is a seperate, independent empire. It is not part of the Imperium. The Cult Mechanicus is tolerated within the Imperium due to the treaties between Mars and Terra, but it is not an official church or religion or anything like that.

Warboss Gorhack brings up a good point. Seeking sanctuary from the Ecclesiarchy would have a significant price tag associated with it, assuming that sanctuary was granted in the first place.

Keep in mind that the Sororitas is both the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy and the sword held at its throat. In addition to defending the interests of the Ecclesiarchy, they are there to ensure that the Ecclesiarchy is not overstepping it bounds or straying into heresy through false doctrine, practices or beliefs. If a particular member of the Ecclesiarchy seems to be getting too heavily-involved in questionable acts that might endanger the image of the Ecclesiarchy, or undermine the people's faith in the institution, the Sororitas are there to deal with the errant cleric. Usually permanently.

Thanks for answer guys! It's as with so many other things in 40k, a pretext for battle

 Furyou Miko wrote:


Technically, both the Adeptus Ministorum and the Adeptus Mechanicus are "The Church", as both are sanctioned religious organisations supported by the governance of the Imperium.

technically they are both "A" church. but not "THE" church, that is the ecclesiarchy as the state religion of the imperium, the Machine Cult is merely a subgroup that is tolerated by the Imperium because of the difficulty in eradicating it and for the benefit that they get for allowing it to continue.

No, they're both officially sanctioned by the Imperium - with the Machine Cult having precedence, since it was sanctioned by the Emperor himself at the Treaty of Olympus Mons, while the Ecclesiarchy is only sanctioned by having a representative on the Council of High Lords.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
No, they're both officially sanctioned by the Imperium - with the Machine Cult having precedence, since it was sanctioned by the Emperor himself at the Treaty of Olympus Mons, while the Ecclesiarchy is only sanctioned by having a representative on the Council of High Lords.

I am not disputing that they are accepted by the Imperium but I struggle to understand how you can suggest the Machine Cult has precedence? The Treaty of Olympus was regarding Admech supplying arms and materials for the imperium in return for non interference in Admech Internal affairs and beliefs. This hardly constitutes the Emperor Sanctioning a Religion, especially given he was opposed to any form of religious belief.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
"There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt."

The Emperor's law is sacred. To defy or obstruct the Emperor's law and the Arbites is to defy or obstruct the Emperor Himself. If someone were on the run from the Arbites, and the local Ecclessiarchy gave him shelter, then that would be heresy, and said local Ecclessiarchy would be purged, and its congregation probably as well, for good measure.

But since the Arbites only really deal with high-level enforcement (their main task is watching planetary governors) or exceptional circumstances, such a situation will be very unlikely. Someone on the run from the Arbites will pretty much always be a very high profile criminal. Normal daily law enforcement falls to local law enforcement forces and that could be a different story. It would heavily depend on the local circumstances and customs of the world in question. But not with the Arbites, their duty is a sacred one and their judgement is absolute. There are no trials, no appeals, no arguing. If the Arbites decide you die, you die. No authority in the Imperium can change that.

Another thing, the Cult Mechanicus is not the church or religion of the Imperium. The Cult Mechanicus is the church of the AdMech. The AdMech is a seperate, independent empire. It is not part of the Imperium. The Cult Mechanicus is tolerated within the Imperium due to the treaties between Mars and Terra, but it is not an official church or religion or anything like that.

The Imperium is more complicated than that

As far as I know the Arbites only have juristition over civilians and not the the many and varied military organsiations - Guard, Navy, Sororitas, Astartes etc
An Inquisitor could countermand an Arbites.
Other pwoerrs could also claim jurisdiction - a high ranking member of the Church could make it difficult.

I also thought the Arbites arrested and put people on trial - or at least in the limited fluff we have - for instance in Shira Calpurnia novels.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I also thought the Arbites arrested and put people on trial - or at least in the limited fluff we have - for instance in Shira Calpurnia novels.

IIRC (some time since I read the Enforcer trilogy myself) trials are reserved for the really high-profile suspects and mostly for when the Arbites wish to make it very public in order to scare others. A common thief is gunned down in the street if the Arbites even bother. The henchmen of the big guy are certainly interrogated but wasting time on a trial when you can select any number of sentences from legal precedent is a waste of time.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
"There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt."

The Emperor's law is sacred. To defy or obstruct the Emperor's law and the Arbites is to defy or obstruct the Emperor Himself. If someone were on the run from the Arbites, and the local Ecclessiarchy gave him shelter, then that would be heresy, and said local Ecclessiarchy would be purged, and its congregation probably as well, for good measure.

But since the Arbites only really deal with high-level enforcement (their main task is watching planetary governors) or exceptional circumstances, such a situation will be very unlikely. Someone on the run from the Arbites will pretty much always be a very high profile criminal. Normal daily law enforcement falls to local law enforcement forces and that could be a different story. It would heavily depend on the local circumstances and customs of the world in question. But not with the Arbites, their duty is a sacred one and their judgement is absolute. There are no trials, no appeals, no arguing. If the Arbites decide you die, you die. No authority in the Imperium can change that.

Another thing, the Cult Mechanicus is not the church or religion of the Imperium. The Cult Mechanicus is the church of the AdMech. The AdMech is a seperate, independent empire. It is not part of the Imperium. The Cult Mechanicus is tolerated within the Imperium due to the treaties between Mars and Terra, but it is not an official church or religion or anything like that.

The Imperium is more complicated than that

As far as I know the Arbites only have juristition over civilians and not the the many and varied military organsiations - Guard, Navy, Sororitas, Astartes etc
An Inquisitor could countermand an Arbites.
Other pwoerrs could also claim jurisdiction - a high ranking member of the Church could make it difficult.

I also thought the Arbites arrested and put people on trial - or at least in the limited fluff we have - for instance in Shira Calpurnia novels.

No, I don't know how they do it in BL novels, but the Arbites are not supposed to hold trials. People do not have any such rights in the Imperium. The Arbites have already researched a case and handed down a judgement before taking any action. Appeals are not possible and the judgement is virtually always death.
The Arbites are the police force of the Adeptus Terra, but they enforce the Lex Imperialis, which comes straight from the Emperor himself. The Arbites thus have authority over the entire Imperium, including the Ecclessiarchy, IG, Navy and even the Inquisition should they ever break the Emperor's Law, because even they have to answer to the Emperor. Rogue Trader does note however that Inquisitors are one of the few people who can claim a trial rather than be summarily executed. I can also imagine that in case of a treasonous Inquisitor, it would be the Inquisition itself that would take up the case, with the Arbites only playing a supporting role.

Imperial governors normally have jurisdiction in local matters, the Ecclessiarchy normally has jurisdiction in cases involving religion and heresy, the AdMech has jurisdiction in cases involving technology or tech-heresy, the Arbites normally have jurisdiction in cases involving treason and the Inquisition has jurisdiction in everything. The Inquisition normally goes above the Arbites and could countermand them as long as doing so would not break the Lex Imperialis (note that the Lex Imperialis mostly concerns itself with high-level crimes like treason against the Emperor etc, so an Inquisitor would be extremely unlikely to ever break that unless he goes renegade.)
Of course, it would not be the Imperium if there was not a huge lot of conflict and strive between all the different organisations. In the end, the Imperium is a huge mess and things normally come down to power politics rather than legal jurisdiction and authority.

TheWanderer wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
No, they're both officially sanctioned by the Imperium - with the Machine Cult having precedence, since it was sanctioned by the Emperor himself at the Treaty of Olympus Mons, while the Ecclesiarchy is only sanctioned by having a representative on the Council of High Lords.

I am not disputing that they are accepted by the Imperium but I struggle to understand how you can suggest the Machine Cult has precedence? The Treaty of Olympus was regarding Admech supplying arms and materials for the imperium in return for non interference in Admech Internal affairs and beliefs. This hardly constitutes the Emperor Sanctioning a Religion, especially given he was opposed to any form of religious belief.

The emperor sanctioned the Machine Cult at Olympus. Outright. He did not say "We'll make a treaty but you have to stop worshipping the omnissiah."

He, in fact, said: "I am the Omnissiah, prophet of the Machine God."

He styled himself as the AdMech's version of Jesus from the very start.

The Horus Heresy novels are very confusing on the issue, I know, but the Emperor never outlawed religion outright. He simply denied that the denizens of the Warp were deities. He was perfectly happy to let a gazillion and one cults worshipping him to flourish throughout the Imperium and on Terra in his own lifetime. The only reason he censured Lorgar was because Lorgar was wasting time establishing religions - not because of the religion itself.

There are trials in the Imperium. In fact, Inquisitor Karamazov is fond of staging huge, public trials for making a big show of purging heretics and the like (it is, after all, the source of his famous quote). Depending on the planet you live on, the average citizen may enjoy a greater or fewer number of civil liberties than citizens on other planets.

In fact, we see a claim to this in the Eisenhorn novel when they arrest the suspected Slaaneshi cultist and Xeno-trader, as he rattles out the whole "I know my rights! I demand" line, to which Eisenhorn replies "You are a prisoner of the Inquisition, you have no rights." This implies that, were this some other organization within the Imperium, the prisoner could certainly expect some degree of legal rights (there are, after all, lawyers in the Imperium, often called "Advocates").