Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As an Eldar player, there is no build that can inherently defend against 2 relentless Dev squads and 2 units of anything assaulting out of deep strike. No matter what I field, I will be losing units turn 1 no matter what I do.

You have a WK? Not after 2 Devs drop in and vaporize it with Melta or Grav
You have Jetbikes that are mobile enough to never see CC? Not after 2 Assault marines drop in and eat them alive.

Aside from deploying the bikes tightly in a corner and reserving the WK, I can't think of any way to avoid losing half my army in the first turn to Skyhammer.

Keep your most valuable units in reserve. Do not clump your units together. For example, deploy striking scorpions using infiltrate at opposite points on the board, have a few units of guardians in your back field, etc. Turn 2, you counter-attack with your strongest units and shred him.

Bubblewrap, castle, and reserves.

A drop pod has the same footprint as a 5” large blast marker. And when troops deploy, they still need to be 1” away from you. You don’t need to carpet your deployment zone, but a few units stretched out can deny him good places to land. If you are worried about pods, some units of guardians can help shield the more valuable stuff.

Eldar are luckier them most when it come to reserves. You could take an autarch to help manipulate the rolls, and have the speed to get where you need to be, even starting off the table.

While it doesn’t help bikes, starting in transports/buildings will preserve units. The need to crack open the box before they can get to the juicy insides, and only have so many units firing.

So what if all my units are my most valuable and I have no transports. In other words, what if my entire army list is made of jetbikes a flyer and a WK? I would have to use the bikes to bubble wrap the WK, but then half of the bike units then die.

If I reserve the WK and spread out the bikes, at least 4 bike units will die anyway, unless the Assault marines scatter horribly away from my units and I make miraculous cover saves against the Devs.

Then you've taken an extreme list that is shoe-horned into one play style, it makes perfect sense if someone else does that and their extreme is good against your extreme they win. It's rock paper scissors.

If you want to be able to handle that, you have to diversify. Perhaps swap a Biker squad for a few individual vipers, it's clear you have some fast attack slots free and as they are individual units he can only target one. Perhaps swap for the Heroes Path to give you the Solitaire as a solid counter assault unit and then leave a gap behind your forces for him to drop down into, Deathjester forces them to run off of the board.

There is more to the Eldar's potential arsenal then Scatterbikes, Wraithknights, Warp Spiders and Hemlocks.

Splurge on the 230 points for a Scalpel Squadron. Null deploy against it. Profit immensely. If he makes you go first, drop the venoms in opposite corners and then turbo-boost out of LOS/into cover. The odds that he kills both transports and all ten wracks are very low when you make him split his combat power.

Table control is another thing. Put as many objectives on one side as you can, and deploy at the other end. Once he drops, he’s got next to no mobility. You do. Leave him high and dry away from all the objectives while you turbo-boost to score.

I also allie in GK's with 2 DK's and a Termie unit. I guess I could try to deploy nothing, hope to give him 1st turn, then hope all my GK's drop in. As long as I have at least 1 unit alive by the end of his second turn, I should be good. But that is still a stretch.

Your units are all incredibly mobile, and a post-drop Skyhammer is not. Added to that, the Devs in your example are loading up on 24" ranged guns, limiting their sphere of influence. Plus, a fully-loaded Skyhammer like this comes in somewhere around 1,100 points, limiting what else you'll be facing. In this matchup, if I were you, I'd put objectives as deep into every corner and scatter your units as much as possible. Even better if you can reserve most of your army and get him to choose a turn 2 drop, as you're deep in all four corners at that point. Force the Skyhammer into making a bad decision on drop placement by not giving it an optimal drop scenario. You will sacrifice units to do so. Choose which units to lose. After that, do the space elf JSJ dance and pick away at the T4 squishies.

I've beaten Skyhammer with BA. Surely Eldar can do the same.

Reserving does not work against skyhammer. Skyhammer player chooses wether to come turn 1 or turn 2. It's also likely that he has developed his list to take reserving as a counter in mind. For example - he has enough empty pods or fodder pods that he still guarantees his alpha strike against the targets he wants unless they stay in reserve till turn 3 - but that's kinda outta the players hands anyways.

I would deploy everything - doing everything you can to keep grav cannons off your wraith knight and NDK. deploy in a corner edge if you can. Times like these you kind of wish you had a sun cannon dont you?

 FL5 wrote:
Your units are all incredibly mobile, and a post-drop Skyhammer is not. Added to that, the Devs in your example are loading up on 24" ranged guns, limiting their sphere of influence. Plus, a fully-loaded Skyhammer like this comes in somewhere around 1,100 points, limiting what else you'll be facing. In this matchup, if I were you, I'd put objectives as deep into every corner and scatter your units as much as possible. Even better if you can reserve most of your army and get him to choose a turn 2 drop, as you're deep in all four corners at that point. Force the Skyhammer into making a bad decision on drop placement by not giving it an optimal drop scenario. You will sacrifice units to do so. Choose which units to lose. After that, do the space elf JSJ dance and pick away at the T4 squishies.

Thanks. This is kinda what I was looking for. Eldar don't like to be alpha-striked so I was hoping for something that DIDNT mean I'd lose units. But spreading out does seem the best idea.

The Devs don't bother me as much since Drop Grav Cents have been a thing and is an acceptable counter to Eldar mobility: hit them hard turn 1 then go for objectives. I have learned how to deploy to minimize that. However the ability to assault turn 1 from deep strike has really thrown me for a tactical loop.

 Galef wrote:
So what if all my units are my most valuable and I have no transports. In other words, what if my entire army list is made of jetbikes a flyer and a WK? I would have to use the bikes to bubble wrap the WK, but then half of the bike units then die.

If I reserve the WK and spread out the bikes, at least 4 bike units will die anyway, unless the Assault marines scatter horribly away from my units and I make miraculous cover saves against the Devs.

You're army is super efficient, super mobile, and super shooty. This is one matchup where you get to use the super mobility to help you win (unlike most other matchups, where just being super efficient and super shooty is good enough).

Martel732 wrote:
I've beaten Skyhammer with BA. Surely Eldar can do the same.

Sky-hammer is more or less countered by transports. He doesn't bring any with this list so it's going to be problematic.

your using bikes, WKs and flyers.

your flyers don't start on table so they cant be targetted...

your bikes if your playing eldar the way many do are in squads of 3 worth a whopping 81pts each.

reserve your WK, or put it in a corner/near impassable terrain so your opponent cannot drop more than 1 drop pod+unit on it due to table space.

if you have turn 1, put only bikes out. Turbo boost them to your opponents far corners and leave some in your corners- now your opponent has to split their deep strike forces up.

If your 4 skyhammer units drop and kill 1 bike unit each, you lost a total of 324pts. That's manageable to deal with.

In reality a gravcannon squad with heavy grav will get 20 shots on your bikes, 14 hits average, 9 wounds. with jink you will take 4-5, so the a 3 man bike unit is dead.

If melta hits you on average you will lose 2 bikes. Meaning they won't auto kill the unit.


Not sure what points you are playing at, but if 324 pts is half your army something is wrong- I don't think you can get a skyhammer force kitted with grav/pods and the assault squads being worth while without playing at at least 1k pts.

blaktoof wrote:


If your 4 skyhammer units drop and kill 1 bike unit each, you lost a total of 324pts. That's manageable to deal with.

Not sure what points you are playing at, but if 324 pts is half your army something is wrong- I don't think you can get a skyhammer force kitted with grav/pods and the assault squads being worth while without playing at at least 1k pts.

1850pts and I only field 5 bike units. Losing 4 of them is half my armies firepower and nearly all of my objective grabbing power. This is, of course, the balance to fielding so many bikes. If I am playing with my Dark Eldar allies, I'll have Venoms to deploy so no worries. If I have my GK Allies I can DS them in turn 1 to mitigate the alphastrike. But a smart opponent with the Skyhammer WILL take out my bike if I deploy them and there is nothing I can do about it.

Are you running 5 squads of 3 bikes each? That's not going to be half of your armies firepower. Not by a long shot. If you have more than 3 bikes per squad, as he mentioned above, you'll only lose 4-5 bikes on averages. That being said, a Dev squad with 4 Grav cannon is running them 210 points. You only need enough firepower to kill both 5man dev squads in order to kill your share in points. 410 points of devs vs. 324 worth of bikes.

The assault marines are tacticals with an extra attack. If you have ever seen a tactical squad charge another tactical squad its pretty pathetic to watch. If he puts points into eviscerators than the squad becomes "slightly" more scary, but he's paying 25 pts for 2 attacks on the charge.

There are plenty of examples of how to avoid damage listed above. Skyhammer really isn't that scary. Just don't deploy a WK and you'll be fine. But just to be safe, let's do the math. 20 shots, 14 hits, 9 wounds, 4-5 wounds, 1-2 blocked by FNP. 2-3 wounds go thru (x2 for each dev squad). On averages he might be able to kill a WK. But that's 410 pts worth of devs to kill a WK that was worth less. And now his mobility is gone and his Devs are lined up. It's not terribly hard to kill 10 marines in 1 turn if you're really afraid of those gravs.

You can't go into a game of 40k and not expect casualties. You can expect to lose models, even by the handful, but it comes at a cost of the enemy models as well. I think you're overthinking how "potent" the alpha strike of Skyhammer can be. It's an expensive formation to run. Make him pay for it.

ASM hitting Bikes on the charge do:
3x(1/2)(1/2)(1/3), or 1/4 kill per guy.

Bikes hitting ASM do:
1x(1/2)(1/3)(1/3), or 1/18.

So, if 1 ASM makes it into combat vs a 3-man team, he probably wins.

Against even a max squad (10) of bikes, using a min squad of ASM:
Bikes kill 10/18, so half a guy
ASM kill4.5 * (1/4), or 1+(1/8).

Even before Hammer of Wrath, ASM will wreck Bikes, even when largely outnumbered.

Also, if ASM lose combat and flee, half the time they can just charge next round. If Bikes lose combat and flee, half the time they are useless next turn, the other half they get removed.

A basic ASM squad is 85pts, right? They will work through the Jetbike squad before too long.

That's also including they deepstrike where they wanted to, made the charge range, and none died on overwatch. Not saying it's likely at all. haha

I definitely wouldn't argue that bikes would ever win the fight. But if they lose and run away, they are turboboosting if they have 2 models left. Worst case they die and the Eldar shoots at the 5 models left. Or the entire Eldar army gets out of that heavily populated side of the board and spends a turn remobilizing and getting on other objectives.

The Skyhammer is literally built for that initial hit. I'm not denying the damage it CAN pull off. I'm just stating that there are ways of mitigating and once they touch earth, their mobility isn't comparable to Eldar's movement and their shooting ranges.

+1, thanks for the math. Didn't think (even on averages) 5 ASM would kill 2 bikes. And there would never be 10 bikes in a squad. The 3 bikes would just get removed and the rest of the army would target prioritize on what to kill and determine threat ranges. I don't think ASM would ever prioritize over Devs. Also, it's easier just to move away from the assault models and shoot at the Devs. 12" + 2d6" + The distance prior to the Space Marines player's turn should be enough to escape the ASMs.

simply running the same gak as everyone else and playing it one way wont defeat skyhammer, you have counter its one minded nature with diversity, and if your not willling to diversify theres no hope to beat it before it eats you alive.

The counter is to have your jet bikes so spread out that his devs only shoot, optimally, two units. Even if he combat squads, he's only got two pods, so can only drop those 24" range guns in two spots. Try as best you can to work the terrain such that you make him decide between killing your unit or positioning for better board control in subsequent turns. If you trick him into dropping his devs in a corner, you win, because they're ineffective for the rest of the game. If he drops mid-board, you win, because he's not getting optimal shots on the drop and you can light them up with everything afterward.

Same goes for the ASMs. If they drop in a corner they are more prone to mishap and will be in cruddy position to effect the rest of the board afterward.

Maybe position the dreadknights and wraithknight to counter-charge. Group them together, maybe 18" or so out and between two bike units. Let him kill one on the drop. Use them to lure him away from your precious ObSec bikers, then smashey facey.

My thoughts on the mater of any Pod army:

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2014/06/null-deployment-7th-edition.html

Ultimately as the old saying goes the best way to win a fight is not to be there when the punch lands.

I really wished MORE opponents did that. It's very intuitive for me how to crush null-deployment. Maybe it's because BA never truly commit to anything because they are fast. But I will always let my opponent piece meal himself for me. I can then digest his list in more manageable chunks. Even having a single unit fail to arrive on turn 2 can be very advantageous for me.

I find that cowering in and behind Rhinos works fine and that null deployment is not necessary vs skyhammer.

hehehe. Apparentluy you haven't seen Null Deployment executed well against Drop armies.

Edit: To expand on that, The Drop Pods would have tagrtes if you take my advice. Those targets are entirely red herrings, but the enemy cant let those particular targets go, because they are too damaging. I give examples in that article but thats the gist. So they must come for the bait or else accept the damage the bait will do.

Either way, the one going second has the advantage because once you split the Blood angel forces (andf you will, either to gain objkective poiints, to kill the warlord, to get Line braker or whatever other thing drives that decisions) it is the Drop pod guy that becomes diffuse BEFORE the enemy must react. Then its just a matter of choosing the weakest sector and going PAC-MAN on it, systematically. The rest of the army cannot get back in time to support the beseiged sector. Net result is that mobility becomes a razor sharp weapon.

 Jancoran wrote:
hehehe. Apparentluy you haven't seen Null Deployment executed well against Drop armies.

I'm not a drop army. BA shouldn't be using drop tactics, imo.

And I'm sure null deployment works fine vs drop armies, but I don't like it against other archetypes. Just having transports is a better option than null deployment vs skyhammer, imo. Although again, BA have a lot of mobility even after Rhinos get wrecked. Gladius has too many to wreck. I guess bike lists would want to null deploy, but against skyhammer, you have to be careful of being tabled turn 1.

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
hehehe. Apparentluy you haven't seen Null Deployment executed well against Drop armies.

...I'm sure null deployment works fine vs drop armies,.

I'm glad we agree.

 Jancoran wrote:
hehehe. Apparentluy you haven't seen Null Deployment executed well against Drop armies.

Edit: To expand on that, The Drop Pods would have tagrtes if you take my advice. Those targets are entirely red herrings, but the enemy cant let those particular targets go, because they are too damaging. I give examples in that article but thats the gist. So they must come for the bait or else accept the damage the bait will do.

Either way, the one going second has the advantage because once you split the Blood angel forces (andf you will, either to gain objkective poiints, to kill the warlord, to get Line braker or whatever other thing drives that decisions) it is the Drop pod guy that becomes diffuse BEFORE the enemy must react. Then its just a matter of choosing the weakest sector and going PAC-MAN on it, systematically. The rest of the army cannot get back in time to support the beseiged sector. Net result is that mobility becomes a razor sharp weapon.

Well, there are plenty of lists that don't have to move at all to support. Then mobility is a lot less valuable. For example, the Riptide can disintegrate any squad it chooses from any point on the board.

Also, your bait better be more compelling than some oblits. After facing lists like Eldar and Tau, I can ignore the firepower of some oblits all day long. An entire game of oblits fire will probably do less damage than a single turn of Broadsides. And that's neglecting the fact that the oblits can't fire at me when I'm in melee.

Martel732 wrote:



Well, there are plenty of lists that don't have to move at all to support. .

Stop right there.

We are talking about... Skyhammer. and how to handle it, specifically. so stop right there and don't tell me what "a lot of other armies" do. because we're not talking about them.

Specific to Skyhammer which is a Drop army concept, we can employ what I am saying.

It's a text book idea to take advantage of drop lists' lack of mobility post-drop. I'm just not convinced that null deployment is the best way to do that. It's A way to do it, but I don't think it works that well as a general practice.

You sir, are incorrect in you're lack of surety on the subject.

It works like a charm. Plus your alternative to doing so is terrible.