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Weapons that is. How do you feel about them? Are they something you play in your regular 2k or so point games, reserved for larger "apoc" games, or do you just loath them completely?

I feel like in a standard game (1850-2000) D weapons are just way too much. We usually agree to never bring ranged D strength anything unless both players agree. Things like D strength in melee is usually fine but then again, we agree to using our knights or super heavies in those cases.

If my army had access to them I might.

D isnt that scary unless you play lots of vehicles or MCs at around 2,000 so i would say once and awhile its completely fine.

I avoid them pretty much entirely. They were great for Apoc games, but in normal games, they really are just too much.About the only people I see running units with D weapons are Eldar players (since they can spam them) and Knights. Aside from that, people generally seem to avoid taking them if they have the opportunity.

Only the D-Thirster, whose likelihood of dying almost negates his damage potential so it could go either way.

I use a Hemlock with my Harlequins but I think the D has yet to do anything to outperform S8AP2, as it requires a 3+ to wound everything and the enemy always gets Cover/Invuln and it's D-1 so it can't roll a 6.

I'm not complaining about it, it's a great flyer but I use it more often for the psychic power and LD bubble than the strength D.

Only larger scale battles formerly known as Apocalypse

Right now I use it all the time. But that's because my Tau/Eldar list is pretty much for tournaments only and tournaments are all I've been able to play in the past few months.

Oddly, I've found Stomps do more damage than my WKs D sword does...

I'd probably use them if Necrons and Space Marines had easy access to those tools.

Most of the time I play infantry based armies.So the big d...
Don't really mind it in normal games. In appoc battles I do try to limit myself since most players will bring big toys and D weapons really feth those up

They're really not that bad - Stomp is a far worse offender.

There's usually one Stormsurge in my lists.

Ice Cube said it best " D to the mouth is bad for your health".

I disagree with Ice Cube :p

But I only bring my D-gun (a Shadowsword) for apoc games.

I personally dislike Str D due to how much it invalidates AV14. When a weapon has the same chance to damage a trukk as it does a battlewagon's front armor then there is something wrong with that mechanic. Vehicles already suffer enough in this edition and having weapons that further make durable vehicles irrelevant is frustrating. Only Str D that I am ok with is melee str D due to the general difficulty of getting into close combat compared to shooting.

If people bring super heavies then yes. Not that I have access to Str D anyway.

 Vankraken wrote:
I personally dislike Str D due to how much it invalidates AV14. When a weapon has the same chance to damage a trukk as it does a battlewagon's front armor then there is something wrong with that mechanic. Vehicles already suffer enough in this edition and having weapons that further make durable vehicles irrelevant is frustrating. Only Str D that I am ok with is melee str D due to the general difficulty of getting into close combat compared to shooting.

What about Haywire and Lance? My problem with D is that unnerfed you can remove models with 6s. Prefer 30k version of D

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
I personally dislike Str D due to how much it invalidates AV14. When a weapon has the same chance to damage a trukk as it does a battlewagon's front armor then there is something wrong with that mechanic. Vehicles already suffer enough in this edition and having weapons that further make durable vehicles irrelevant is frustrating. Only Str D that I am ok with is melee str D due to the general difficulty of getting into close combat compared to shooting.

What about Haywire and Lance? My problem with D is that unnerfed you can remove models with 6s. Prefer 30k version of D

Lance is fine in that its not all that common and usually its not ultra powerful (str 8 mostly I think) and there is still a difference between a AV 10 trukk getting hit by a dark lance compared to the AV14 battlewagon. Haywire just glances to death and tends to be more common on melee than ranged attacks. Weapons that have Haywire or Lance are generally designed to kill vehicles while less effective (or useless) against infantry, MCs, etc. Str D just tends to kill everything the same so a grot is as likely to be wounded as a T10 GMC. The 6 result is just the icing on the cake of this already bad mechanic.

I only use it in larger games or games where I know I will be facing enemy LoW.
That said my Shadowsword is not that scary compared to most targets out there.

Considering my only source of D is from a random power, I use it only when the dice let me...

But for real, I typically frown upon it in regular games, since not all armies have equal access to it.

I encountered it for the first time in my last battle, where my friend was trying out his new Shadowsword for the first time. The plan was we'd have a silly game where we brought out our big guns, so I was fielding my Greater Brass Scorpion. And silly was very much how it went!

I think the big problem was a massive lack of scenery, as although we had a few bits on the table there was enough open terrain I had to cross within the firing line of his Shadowsword, Leman Russ squadron and so on that I didn't have a chance.

The infantry I'd managed to infiltrate was half dead turn one, and mostly gone on turn two.

The first hit from the D cannon on my scorpion did a few hull points, then on turn 2 he rolled a 6 on the D table, and another 6 for the damage. My scorpion went nuclear. Hit the daemon prince hiding behind him with its own Str D explosion and killed him, and also wiped out the few remaining havocs squatting in the neighbouring cover.

Tabled on turn 2 - half my army was still in reserves. I think I took a couple of hull points off a razorback and immobilised a chimera, but didn't kill anything.

Yeah, D is 'fun'.

My only access to D weapons is the C'Tan power and since I have to randomly roll to get it, it doesn't really break the game even at low points (especially since the C'Tan shards eat up a significant portion of my points in small games).

I have the 'common' view of "great in Apoc, Meh in regular"

I love D...I use it at often as I can. I really don't think there is anything wrong with it. On a 6 an indestructible model dies - 2-5 its about as effective as penning or wounding with 2 las cannons.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I love D...I use it at often as I can. I really don't think there is anything wrong with it. On a 6 an indestructible model dies - 2-5 its about as effective as penning or wounding with 2 las cannons.

D weapons are significantly more powerful than just two lascannons against more things. For starters, T or AV value is irrelevant, a Lascannon only has a 1 in 3 chance of penning AV14, or a 50/50 chance to do anything at all. A D weapon gets a 5/6 chance to do something and, assuming AP2, has a better than 50/50 chance of one shotting any 3 HP vehicle with every shot (between chance to explode, do 3 HPs on a 2-5 roll, or get a 6), 5 times that of two successful Lascannon hits.

They are dramatically more capable than a couple of Lascannons, they're a point-click-delete ability.

Never. Not out of aversion, I just don't have any in my primary army as an option. One of my secondary armies does, I just don't own any.

 Vankraken wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
I personally dislike Str D due to how much it invalidates AV14. When a weapon has the same chance to damage a trukk as it does a battlewagon's front armor then there is something wrong with that mechanic. Vehicles already suffer enough in this edition and having weapons that further make durable vehicles irrelevant is frustrating. Only Str D that I am ok with is melee str D due to the general difficulty of getting into close combat compared to shooting.

What about Haywire and Lance? My problem with D is that unnerfed you can remove models with 6s. Prefer 30k version of D

Lance is fine in that its not all that common and usually its not ultra powerful (str 8 mostly I think) and there is still a difference between a AV 10 trukk getting hit by a dark lance compared to the AV14 battlewagon. Haywire just glances to death and tends to be more common on melee than ranged attacks. Weapons that have Haywire or Lance are generally designed to kill vehicles while less effective (or useless) against infantry, MCs, etc. Str D just tends to kill everything the same so a grot is as likely to be wounded as a T10 GMC. The 6 result is just the icing on the cake of this already bad mechanic.

But isn't this exactly like complaining about monstrous creatures in general as a "broken mechanic" when perfectly balanced MCs like most Nid monsters, pain engines, daemons etc exist?

Lances (at least dark and bright) are far cheaper, more universally available and work the same vs light and heavy targets. They're inefficient vs, say, grots, just like D-weapons are. Shoot a D-weapon at a grot, and it's exactly as effective as a boltgun. That's pretty inefficient.

Eldar D-weaponry is bonkers on two specific platforms, Wraithguard with scythes, and wraithknights. Wraithknights are bonkers because they got stomp FNP immunity to instant death and poison, for free. Wraithguard are bonkers because their scythes went from strength FOUR to strength D. A hemlock is still an AV10 flyer for 185 points. D-batteries and cannon guard got buffed from S10 with Remove From Play on a 6, to D. That's almost the same and all their old restrictions and limitations apply.

If blood angels tactical marine bolters just randomly got Haywire for free, you wouldn't nerf Haywire, you'd nerf that one platform that got a crazy buff for no reason.

It depends, imo, but generally I'd say the answer is they're fine.

Str D melee is fine. No complaints.

Ranged D is situational. Single shots (wraithcannons, e.g.) are powerful, but not what I'd consider broken. And again, they're supposed to be powerful weapons.

The stormsurge destroyer missiles are super good, but one use only, so it balances out, imo.

Ranged D blasts and templates are where things start to unravel a bit. And multiple D blasts/templates just get dumb. Even eldar 'nerfed' D-scythe blasts and flamers are, generally, broken as hell.

I mean, a unit of D flamers can reliably kill an imperial knight in overwatch. That's pretty broken. Hell, they actually have a BETTER chance of killing a knight in overwatch than in their shooting phase, come to think of it.

Anyways. In my book, D melee and single shots at ranged is fine. One, maybe 2 D templates is ok (like the large blast D baneblade). More than that and it gets dumb, fast.

I'll generally bring an Imperial Knight Titan in my SM lists of 1500 pts. or more. It's not bad, the strength D is a melee weapon on them and generally only good against vehicles, MC's and GC's.

I play GK and fish for Vortex, so every chance I get!

SJ