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Greetings all, I've done my theorizing and have watched a lot of x-wing played out on YouTube and tonight I'm planning to step into the cockpit.

I'm bringing what I hope will be a reasonably powerful list that seems like it should reinforce its strengths nicely but also be a bit more forgiving than a lot of the Empire lists I've seen (and not requiring the ace maneuvers/ arc dodging of a Phantom/ Interceptor list).

Here goes:

Vader (32)
TIE/x1
Accuracy corrector
Squadron leader
Engine Mk II

Vessery (40)
Cluster missiles
Engine Mk II

Alozen (28)
TIE/ x1
Advanced targeting computer
Calculation
Engine Mk II

The play theory will be to use all 3 in a loose formation (Vader somewhat to the rear?) to concentrate fire as much as possible with Vader aqiring the TL (or passing the action to Alozen to do it) and using accuracy corrector for guaranteed hits (stripping tokensand/or shields), Vessery doing the bulk of the damage (I especially like the idea or the w attacks from cluster missiles both getting target locks) and Alozen batting cleanup (ATC giving him at least one damage per round with the ability to push critical hits) - and his ability takes place at the beginning of combat so I can switch up targets if I catch an enemy ace at R1).

Also, for this list I'm using proxies for some upgrades but nothing unreleased (man do I want the TIE-Defender titles to play with, and Tractor beam) because I don't know how the folks at the FLGS are about that)

Looking forward to your thoughts!

If you want Vessery to be your heavy lifter, heavy laser cannon is a no brainer.

The mkii engines can be dropped from the advanceds for sure. They won't be stressing themselves enough for it to matter. They're helpful on Defenders but not necessary if you aren't stressing yourself with Push or something. Anytime you might want to hard turn 1 to chase someone, youll probably be happier with a white 4k. Losing all the engines would let you upgrade from Clusters to Heavy Laser.

I would trade Vader's squad leader for Juke. ESPECIALLY if you want him to strip tokens. Alozen doesn't need TLs passed to him. He gets free ones. Accuracy corrector is fine, though Vader is the best candidate for ATC IMO. With Alozen being a close second.

I would also put a different EPT on Alozen. Predator would be best but it looks like you squeezed in Calculation with the last point. Crack Shot would be better in every way for 1 point.

So final list would be:
Vader
-Juke
-TIE x/1
-Accuracy Corrector

Alozen
-Crack Shot
-TIE x/1
-Advanced Targeting Computer

Vessery
-Heavy Laser Cannon

I like your list, but my suggestions (based on my play style, so, grain of salt and all that) are to go with the "optimal" Vader loadout.
He's a beast with 2x actions, and can arc dodge with the best of them; I don't like Squad Leader giving away an action.
Vessery takes advantage of Vader's Target Locks, and sheds stress more easily thanks to the Mk. II.
Alozen uses predator to boost his use of ATC (whereas Vader can TL + Focus for his).
Fairly straightforward damage dealing..., and most "gimmicking" revolves around TLs.

Darth Vader (35)
Veteran instincts
Engine Upgrade
Tie /x1
Advanced Targeting Computer

Col Vessery (36)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II

Commander Alozen (29)
Predator
Tie/x1
Advanced targeting Computer

Good luck, bocatt's suggestions are solid as well.

 bocatt wrote:
If you want Vessery to be your heavy lifter, heavy laser cannon is a no brainer.

Thanks for the input bobcat. I definitely see your point about the HLC. when I was building, I was pretty intimidated by the cost of the cannon but it is a much more consistent attack.

The mkii engines can be dropped from the advanceds for sure. They won't be stressing themselves enough to matter ... Losing all the engines would let you upgrade from Clusters to Heavy Laser.

It wasn’t actually my stress, I was worried about. I was stressed (heh) about the possibility of running into other stress-dealing ships (Y-wing with TLT and R3 stressbot, for example) and given how much of the plan is based on target locks and actions, I didn't want Vader in particular sidelined by it.

But I don't know the local meta so even though those seem common in tournaments, I may not have to worry about it yet... though some people here have suggested that the Mk II engine is almost necessary to the Defender. Your thoughts?

I would trade Vader's squad leader for Juke. ESPECIALLY if you want him to strip tokens. Alozen doesn't need TLs passed to him. He gets free ones.

Well wasn't going to only pass the TLs, I was also thinking about being able to pass Vader's extra actions to whichever other ship needed an extra focus/ evade (or even barrel roll out of sequence).

I also don't know if I want to fly Alozen so aggressively as to be able to rely on the free TLs. Shields make him sturdier than standard TIEs but he's no tank. And against high PS enemy builds his Ability is less reliable (I'd been thinking about it mainly as a way to suddenly shift fire if needed or desired).

Accuracy corrector is fine, though Vader is the best candidate for ATC IMO. With Alozen being a close second.

I've been thinking about this... guaranteed two hits or a guaranteed critical with the chance of 2 more hit/crits? I came down this was 'cause there's less temptation to spend defense tokens (focus or evade if I take juke) early in the firing rotation, leaving Vader vulnerable to return fire. I came down on this side to save the point but I will probably try it both ways.

I would also put a different EPT on Alozen. Predator would be best but it looks like you squeezed in Calculation with the last point. Crack Shot would be better in every way for 1 point.

I rejected crack shot because it's a 1-use and calculate seemed more versatile (spend focus for multiple hits if that's better or to push extra criticals into a ship I can't kill that turn by changing multiple eyeballs into regular hits)... but maybe that point is better used elsewhere (or for the initiative bid, though I'm not sure I understand how that works).

Just to be clear, I'm not discounting any of your points, just trying to explain my reasons for choosing what I did.

I especially hadn't thought about using Juke (at least until the x7 title comes down) but I'm now really thinking about how to get it on to Vessery... off to play with Squadron builder again


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 House Griffith wrote:
I like your list, but my suggestions (based on my play style, so, grain of salt and all that) are to go with the "optimal" Vader loadout.
He's a beast with 2x actions, and can arc dodge with the best of them; I don't like Squad Leader giving away an action.

That Vaded build seems a lot more suited for a list with another interceptor (or two!!!) than a Defender/Advanced. Part of the reason I went this way was (as noted above) to give myself the extra survivability with shields over Interceptors as I learn more about the maneuvers/arc dodging but also to give myself practice and incentives to fly a loose formation and concentrate fire without the skill and precision needed for a successful TIE swarm.

That said, while I'm definitely liking the idea of trying out a combination people probably won't have seen, I also definitely (from other games) recognize that the 'standard' builds get that way for a reason-- they're powerful and points-effective.

Vessery takes advantage of Vader's Target Locks, and sheds stress more easily thanks to the Mk. II.
Alozen uses predator to boost his use of ATC (whereas Vader can TL + Focus for his).
Fairly straightforward damage dealing..., and most "gimmicking" revolves around TLs.

I also like that this build keeps the points value of the stronger two ships closer, giving the enemy less incentive to pick out one over the other ... where Vessery with HLC puts a lot of the hitting power in one (already expensive) ship.

Putting anything other than Advanced Targeting Computer on Vader is a waste.

Don't discount Crack Shot because it's a one-time use upgrade; it's an extremely potent one point ability. However, if you have a point to spend on Vader, give him Veteran Instincts so no one will out-PS him.

The mkii engines can be dropped from the advanceds for sure. They won't be stressing themselves enough to matter ... Losing all the engines would let you upgrade from Clusters to Heavy Laser
It wasn’t actually my stress, I was worried about. I was stressed (heh) about the possibility of running into other stress-dealing ships (Y-wing with TLT and R3 stressbot, for example) and given how much of the plan is based on target locks and actions, I didn't want Vader in particular sidelined by it. But I don't know the local meta so even though those seem common in tournaments, I may not have to worry about it yet... though some people here have suggested that the Mk II engine is almost necessary to the Defender. Your thoughts?

Alozen and Vessery get TLs whether they are stressed or not. "Acquire a TL" is not an action. It is the same wording as "assign a focus/evade token to your ship" You don't care about stress. Use those two to batter the stressbot Y-wing or Gunner Tactician ship if it shows up. There's almost always only one per list.

I would trade Vader's squad leader for Juke. ESPECIALLY if you want him to strip tokens. Alozen doesn't need TLs passed to him. He gets free ones.
Well wasn't going to only pass the TLs, I was also thinking about being able to pass Vader's extra actions to whichever other ship needed an extra focus/ evade (or even barrel roll out of sequence).

I also don't know if I want to fly Alozen so aggressively as to be able to rely on the free TLs. Shields make him sturdier than standard TIEs but he's no tank. And against high PS enemy builds his Ability is less reliable (I'd been thinking about it mainly as a way to suddenly shift fire if needed or desired).

You don't rely on his free TLs. He doesn't spend them. You acquire one and hold onto it for most of the game. If you can snag one when you don't need a focus or evade, even better. Alozen's pilot ability also makes up for cases where an easy target ends up at R1 of you and you change your mind to focus fire that Y-wing or B-wing with 3 dice + critical rather than shoot at that ace at R3 that gets 4-6 green dice.

Accuracy corrector is fine, though Vader is the best candidate for ATC IMO. With Alozen being a close second.

I've been thinking about this... guaranteed two hits or a guaranteed critical with the chance of 2 more hit/crits? I came down this was 'cause there's less temptation to spend defense tokens (focus or evade if I take juke) early in the firing rotation, leaving Vader vulnerable to return fire. I came down on this side to save the point but I will probably try it both ways.

Like I said, AC and Juke is perfectly fine for a cheap Vader build. Taking away someone's focus/evade while you yourself have focus and evade is valuable. Especially when you have a Heavy Laser Cannon following up

I would also put a different EPT on Alozen. Predator would be best but it looks like you squeezed in Calculation with the last point. Crack Shot would be better in every way for 1 point.
I rejected crack shot because it's a 1-use

That one use is a critical on Soontir Fel that reduces him to flying or shooting worse than an Academy Pilot and breaks his Stealth Device.

and calculate seemed more versatile (spend focus for multiple hits if that's better or to push extra criticals into a ship I can't kill that turn by changing multiple eyeballs into regular hits)... but maybe that point is better used elsewhere (or for the initiative bid, though I'm not sure I understand how that works).

Calculate, especially on a 2-primary weapon, is not "versatile" it's one point and an EPT slot wasted on usually getting a crit a turn instead of a hit which will be just as easily cancelled by defense dice. ATC is powerful because it ADDS a die that is already a damage result. The crit effect is really not that super great. An extra bonus to encourage not spending your target lock and just taking the one extra, but that's not what makes it good and that's not why it fixed the TIE advanced from being unusable to one of the best ships in the game. Predator or Crack Shot will always be more useful as they actually ADD net hits, rather than just changing what would have been a hit, to a crit.

I especially hadn't thought about using Juke (at least until the x7 title comes down) but I'm now really thinking about how to get it on to Vessery... off to play with Squadron builder again

You don't need it on Vessery. He has a HLC and free target locks. He's going to brutalize anyone he focuses. He doesn't come with an evade action anyway so shoehorning it into an Imperial List (no Jan Ors crew) is waste of time and points.

Vessery takes advantage of Vader's Target Locks, and sheds stress more easily thanks to the Mk. II.
Alozen uses predator to boost his use of ATC (whereas Vader can TL + Focus for his).
Fairly straightforward damage dealing..., and most "gimmicking" revolves around TLs.
I also like that this build keeps the points value of the stronger two ships closer, giving the enemy less incentive to pick out one over the other ... where Vessery with HLC puts a lot of the hitting power in one (already expensive) ship.

This isn't how people choose target priority. If you focus on points from the get-go, you have already lost. You should prioritize whichever target is most threatening or can do the most damage to your list. If you brought Soontir Fel, a stress hog might be your first target, where as a BBBBZ player might want to focus Soontir Fel or Whisper so their list isn't picked apart late in the game.

Points should be a last minute grab as the game goes to time. Finish off that 60 point Falcon or nudge that IG-88 to half so you get the half points for it.

 bocatt wrote:

Vessery takes advantage of Vader's Target Locks, and sheds stress more easily thanks to the Mk. II.
Alozen uses predator to boost his use of ATC (whereas Vader can TL + Focus for his).
Fairly straightforward damage dealing..., and most "gimmicking" revolves around TLs.
I also like that this build keeps the points value of the stronger two ships closer, giving the enemy less incentive to pick out one over the other ... where Vessery with HLC puts a lot of the hitting power in one (already expensive) ship.

This isn't how people choose target priority. If you focus on points from the get-go, you have already lost. You should prioritize whichever target is most threatening or can do the most damage to your list. If you brought Soontir Fel, a stress hog might be your first target, where as a BBBBZ player might want to focus Soontir Fel or Whisper so their list isn't picked apart late in the game.

Points should be a last minute grab as the game goes to time. Finish off that 60 point Falcon or nudge that IG-88 to half so you get the half points for it.

I second this. Target priority can be weird. Last weekend I actually prioritized a pair of Z-95's over Guri and Kavil, because that was the fastest way to reduce my enemies firepower and maneuverability. Both Z-95's combined cost just 2/3 the price of his main ships.

So I didn't actually get a game in - play at the FLGS is a mini-tournament and I got there too late to take part. I did experience set up and 2 turns of maneuvers (and starting out some firing.

I was up against a Poe(vi), Biggs, B-wing list, and I brought Vader (squad leader, eng mk2, accuracy corrector, x1), Vessery (Mangler, eng mk2) and Alozen (ATC, Juke, x1).

Even though I didn't get to play much, I did pick up a few things (notably just how fast you can go from way out of range to well inside, especially again an x-wing with boost).

I definitely see the big (bigger than I thought) advantage of the higher pilot skill, moving last from outside TL range into firing position (as when Poe zoomed in on me).

That said, I still like my theory of holding Vader somewhat back to pass his a TL or evadee to Alozen (who was out of range for his own having the lowest PS (tie but opponent had the initiative advantage) on the board.

I decided to experiment with the Mangler cannon on Vessery because the 3 points saved from HLC would allow me to add Juke on Alozen. (And give Vessery the eng mk2). And while I like not giving the enemy an extra green die at R3, I could see switching to cluster or Concussion missiles (possibly deadeye too).

What do you think? Is the HLC good enough to miss out on all the other advantages? I've got until Sunday or Tuesday to tinker (and possibly practice maneuvers) before I have another chance to play.

Apostasus wrote:

I brought Vader (squad leader, eng mk2, accuracy corrector, x1), Vessery (Mangler, eng mk2) and Alozen (ATC, Juke, x1).

Not a fan of accuracy corrector on Vader. Vader can easily take advantage of the ATC by getting a TL and Focus in one turn.

I definitely see the big (bigger than I thought) advantage of the higher pilot skill, moving last from outside TL range into firing position (as when Poe zoomed in on me).

Yup, which is why VI on Vader is extremely helpful when facing VI'd rebel lists, like our friend Poe here.

That said, I still like my theory of holding Vader somewhat back to pass his a TL or evadee to Alozen (who was out of range for his own having the lowest PS (tie but opponent had the initiative advantage) on the board.

IMO, Vader is many things, but NOT a support ship. You want Vader in the fight and dealing damage; plus, he has the "benefit" of being a big shiny, so your other ships will be likely free to work. Do you have other options than Alozen? I mean, he's not that good...it's like you're trying to make him your workhorse in this list (by passing him Vader's actions through SL) and at PS5, I don't see it, especially when Vader can do the exact same things at higher PS.

I decided to experiment with the Mangler cannon on Vessery because the 3 points saved from HLC would allow me to add Juke on Alozen. (And give Vessery the eng mk2). And while I like not giving the enemy an extra green die at R3, I could see switching to cluster or Concussion missiles (possibly deadeye too).

I don't care for missile add-ons at this point in the game. Maybe with some of the upcoming upgrade cards, but they're wasted points when there's more permanent, consistent damage dealers out there...

What do you think? Is the HLC good enough to miss out on all the other advantages? I've got until Sunday or Tuesday to tinker (and possibly practice maneuvers) before I have another chance to play.

...like the HLC. Yes, it's good enough. The possibility of dealing 4x damage a turn is always good.

Again, take my advice for what it is. I'm not trying to dump on your list, just point out that there's -what are considered- better options available. Are you trying to make this list viable/competitive for tournament play?

Griffith summed it up pretty good: Vader is not a support ship. You've loaded him up with gakky upgrades that neuter his ability to kill stuff. He needs Advanced Targeting Computer in the worst way; Accuracy Corrector is a waste on him. Squad Leader also sucks because Vader is good because of his two free actions, something nearly every pilot in the game would love to have. You're wasting his ability to arc dodge and do damage to pass an action to a PS 5 filler ship. If you want to keep him cheap, give him Veteran Instincts and ATC for 31 points.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Griffith summed it up pretty good: Vader is not a support ship. You've loaded him up with gakky upgrades that neuter his ability to kill stuff. He needs Advanced Targeting Computer in the worst way; Accuracy Corrector is a waste on him. Squad Leader also sucks because Vader is good because of his two free actions, something nearly every pilot in the game would love to have. You're wasting his ability to arc dodge and do damage to pass an action to a PS 5 filler ship. If you want to keep him cheap, give him Veteran Instincts and ATC for 31 points.

I was thinking more about this while on a run this morning, and it's like the OP is trying to make Alozen a proxy Vader...when Vader's already there!
Apostasus, I can't stress enough Scooty's point that Vader is awesome because he gets two actions a turn. Most pilots pay a 3 point PTL tax for this, and incur stress. Friends don't let friends pass off Vader's actions to others.

Also, If anyone gets the accuracy corrector in this list, it should be Alozen. Then put a useful, non-action related EPT on him and call it good, like Crack Shot or something.

If you're intent on using Vader to help out, go with Swarm Tactics and keep Alozen close.

 House Griffith wrote:

Also, If anyone gets the accuracy corrector in this list, it should be Alozen.

Sorry, you're wrong.
There is no one in the Galaxy that benefits LESS from Accuracy Corrector than Alozen. He gets free target locks for Christ sake. Being at range 1 shooting 3 dice with a TL and focus will give you statistically more hits than cancelling your dice and just getting two hits. Think about that. Sure you havent wasted any points but Jesus give the guy a sensor jammer or something that isn't COMPLETELY frakking useless.

Sorry, you're wrong.
There is no one in the Galaxy that benefits LESS from Accuracy Corrector than Alozen. He gets free target locks for Christ sake. Being at range 1 shooting 3 dice with a TL and focus will give you statistically more hits than cancelling your dice and just getting two hits. Think about that. Sure you havent wasted any points but Jesus give the guy a sensor jammer or something that isn't COMPLETELY frakking useless.

You are correct, for the most part, but It's still conditional and the AC works fine at ranges 2-3; so it's not "COMPLETELY frakking useless", and hell, it's free . So I wouldn't completely dismiss my recommendation.

I'm also trying to preserve the guy's original list...I wouldn't have bothered with Alozen in the first place.

 House Griffith wrote:

 bocatt wrote:

 House Griffith wrote:

Also, If anyone gets the accuracy corrector in this list, it should be Alozen.

Sorry, you're wrong.
There is no one in the Galaxy that benefits LESS from Accuracy Corrector than Alozen. He gets free target locks for Christ sake. Being at range 1 shooting 3 dice with a TL and focus will give you statistically more hits than cancelling your dice and just getting two hits. Think about that. Sure you havent wasted any points but Jesus give the guy a sensor jammer or something that isn't COMPLETELY frakking useless.

You are correct! Even better then, like you said, he can give Alozen something even more useful.
I'm also trying to preserve the guy's original list...I wouldn't have bothered with Alozen in the first place.

I like Alozen personally. I think his ability makes him fairly useful as an ATC carrier. There are lots of times when a low ish PS pilot will end up in the fur ball with 2-3 other ships, and being able to acquire a TL on one of them in the combat phase even if you lost your action and then throw 3 dice at them and add a crit or reroll dice can make for a very nasty surprise. That's not an edge case either. It happens in almost every single game I've played (except against slow playing castlers that sit in one corner of the board, but that's not interesting or fun and isn't very viable)

He's a lot better than Colzet. That's for sure. Colzet's ability is so marginally randomly useful I'm not even sure if it's worth the Target Lock to use it.

Griffin:
I was thinking more about this while on a run this morning, and it's like the OP is trying to make Alozen a proxy Vader...when Vader's already there!
Apostasus, I can't stress enough Scooty's point that Vader is awesome because he gets two actions a turn. Most pilots pay a 3 point PTL tax for this, and incur stress. Friends don't let friends pass off Vader's actions to others.

I was actually thinking about passing the action to EITHER Alozen or Vessery, especially as (being a new player) I'm likely to misjudge ranges or have more experienced players out maneuver me. So I'd be able to make sure I can use Vessery's free TLs ("Oh, Vader's out of range (or firing arc or otherwise won't be able to make the best of both actions)? Good maneuver, but I'll pass the action to Alozen/ Vessery who can get the lock/ take another action to maximize it.") But the main idea for this list was to try to make the most of Vessery's ability so maybe I'll switch Vader to ATC if I have the points, or FCS, if not for the lingering TL. If it comes to it, which is more important, do you think? VI or ATC?

Going back, my major goal was to get a list that would be reasonably strong (Imperials with shields to be a bit more forgiving), use the Defender (and Vessery specifically, not wild about Brath's ability) and practice until I decide if I prefer aces, mini-swarm, doom shuttle or full swarm as my preference (or something totally different).

And I confess that I may have been distracted/ over-impressed by the squad leader ability when I decided on Vader instead of Juno (earlier advice was to avoid dial shifting abilities until I get reasonably good at maneuvers so I don't get sloppy or develop bad habits).

Also, I observed a mixed TIE/TIE fo swarm last night that looked pretty strong (using juke & comm relay) so I'm also toying with trying to get something like ruthless in there (on Alozen? As he's more likely to be the knife- fighter).

And I Can. Not. Wait. for the tractor beam and Defender- D

So to whoever asked, no, this is not a tournament list, but losing every game while learning isn't much fun either


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And oooh, Lt. Cozlet + FCS looks like a fun combination if a strong Alozen build doesn’t fit in the list

Apostasus wrote:
I was actually thinking about passing the action to EITHER Alozen or Vessery, especially as (being a new player) I'm likely to misjudge ranges or have more experienced players out maneuver me. So I'd be able to make sure I can use Vessery's free TLs ("Oh, Vader's out of range (or firing arc or otherwise won't be able to make the best of both actions)? Good maneuver, but I'll pass the action to Alozen/ Vessery who can get the lock/ take another action to maximize it.")

Vessery should never need to target lock for an action, especially if you're running him with someone like Vader with ATC (who will always have a target lock on someone). Still, you're trying to build Vader into a support ship for two inferior ships, which is not the point of Vader.

But the main idea for this list was to try to make the most of Vessery's ability so maybe I'll switch Vader to ATC if I have the points, or FCS, if not for the lingering TL. If it comes to it, which is more important, do you think? VI or ATC?

I can't stress this enough: there is "maybe" giving Vader ATC; you either give it to him or pick a different pilot to fly. You most likely won't be out PS'd if you have a VI Vader in your squad, which you use to your advantage. Since you'll move last, you'll know where everyone else is on the board and you can use your two actions to position yourself in the best possible spot (range 1 and out of arc) or turtle up (focus and evade token). You'll always take a target lock at your first opportunity, preferably at range 3 during the initial contact in the beginning of the game. From that point until your target is dead, use your two actions to reposition or stay alive. If you don't use VI on Vader, he needs an Elite upgrade that will help him kill stuff: Lone Wolf, Predator, Juke, Crack Shot, etc.

Going back, my major goal was to get a list that would be reasonably strong (Imperials with shields to be a bit more forgiving), use the Defender (and Vessery specifically, not wild about Brath's ability) and practice until I decide if I prefer aces, mini-swarm, doom shuttle or full swarm as my preference (or something totally different).

You're almost at a strong list, but you are reluctant to want take what we've told you in to consideration. I understand what you're trying to do, but due to the nature of the game, there are just some things that are better than others and you're trying to use the "others."

And I confess that I may have been distracted/ over-impressed by the squad leader ability when I decided on Vader instead of Juno (earlier advice was to avoid dial shifting abilities until I get reasonably good at maneuvers so I don't get sloppy or develop bad habits).

Yes, you are way too hung up on Squad Leader. Seriously, it's not that good of a card.

Also, I observed a mixed TIE/TIE fo swarm last night that looked pretty strong (using juke & comm relay) so I'm also toying with trying to get something like ruthless in there (on Alozen? As he's more likely to be the knife- fighter).

Ruthlessness pretty much sucks. There is no use for it against a two or three ship build and it prevents you from flying in formation against said lists. On the other hand, Omega Leader with Comm Relay and Juke is just about the best ace-killer out there. He makes your opponents rely on naked dice, which is never a good thing.

So to whoever asked, no, this is not a tournament list, but losing every game while learning isn't much fun either

Bringing a list that isn't good isn't going to help you win games while you're learning though.

I know it may seem like I'm not listening to the advice but it's at least partially because at times I feel like some of y'all aren't understanding what I was hoping to accomplish. So I feel like I need to explain again my original idea, and around and around we go.

Vessery should never need to target lock for an action, especially if you're running him with someone like Vader with ATC (who will always have a target lock on someone).

Like this. I'venever been talking (well, not much) about giving Vessery the TL to use himself. I'd been thinking about passing him another action (barrel roll, for example to reposition after the opponent _thinks_ they know where I've ended up, or evade if I took a roll earlier).

And the other way I was looking at it was as a bargain price PTL for Vessery or Alozen, without the stress, with an extra ship to throw TLs for Vessery (instead of running a 2-ship list)... but anyway, I'm (mostly) over it.

I understand what you're trying to do, but due to the nature of the game, there are just some things that are better than others and you're trying to use the "others."

Some of that is deliberate, in that I tend to think people may overlook options that are almost as good/ as good as but harder to play, but I'll save trying to build those lists for later. (Vessery in a Defender- D with tractor beam + ruthless looks fun -- tractor making sure that the target winds up someplace useful).

On the other hand, Omega Leader with Comm Relay and Juke is just about the best ace-killer out there. He makes your opponents rely on naked dice, which is never a good thing.

That definitely looks good, but I have major thematic objections to running Vader and a FO (or other post Battle of Endor) ship.

I may get over that by thinking about Vader as a generic Dark Jedi, but I'm not there yet

Like this. I'venever been talking (well, not much) about giving Vessery the TL to use himself. I'd been thinking about passing him another action (barrel roll, for example to reposition after the opponent _thinks_ they know where I've ended up, or evade if I took a roll earlier).

And the other way I was looking at it was as a bargain price PTL for Vessery or Alozen, without the stress, with an extra ship to throw TLs for Vessery (instead of running a 2-ship list)... but anyway, I'm (mostly) over it.

Yeah, I'm still kind of fuzzy on what you're trying to accomplish, because what it (still) looks like is that you're trying to use arguably the best pilot in the game as a support ship. In doing so, you're deliberately hamstringing your most consistent damage dealer so that a lesser pilot can get a barrel roll, and calling it a "bargain PTL"...lol wut?

Some of that is deliberate, in that I tend to think people may overlook options that are almost as good/ as good as but harder to play, but I'll save trying to build those lists for later. (Vessery in a Defender- D with tractor beam + ruthless looks fun -- tractor making sure that the target winds up someplace useful).

I think you severely underestimate the amount of thought the tournament community has put into list building. If a certain gimmick were good, you'd see it. The guys giving you advice here, self included, have played a LOT of games, probably since the game began. <<thousand yard stare>> We've seen it all, man.

As for thematic objections, well, ok. I stopped arguing with the 40k fluff bunnies who get curbstomped a long time ago.

Anyhow, I think we've all been trying to help while preserving your original list. Play some games and let us know how it goes.

Apostasus wrote:
I know it may seem like I'm not listening to the advice but it's at least partially because at times I feel like some of y'all aren't understanding what I was hoping to accomplish. So I feel like I need to explain again my original idea, and around and around we go.

I understand your original idea which is why I'm telling you it isn't that good of an idea. This kind of thing happens often in this subforum; someone comes in with an idea that isn't that good, they ask for advice, people tell them it isn't a good idea, they argue that no one else understands their idea and that it was already good.

Like this. I'venever been talking (well, not much) about giving Vessery the TL to use himself. I'd been thinking about passing him another action (barrel roll, for example to reposition after the opponent _thinks_ they know where I've ended up, or evade if I took a roll earlier).

Vessery can only take three actions naturally: barrel roll, focus, and target lock. He will never need to target lock because of Vader, making focus is his default action. Because of his pilot ability, he's already getting decent action economy. The Defender isn't a nimble arc dodger like the Interceptor so barrel rolls aren't as important, especially at range three (which is where your cannon-toting, three agility ship will want to be).

And the other way I was looking at it was as a bargain price PTL for Vessery or Alozen, without the stress, with an extra ship to throw TLs for Vessery (instead of running a 2-ship list)... but anyway, I'm (mostly) over it.

Both of those ships already have above average action economy and neither one are good enough to gimp the strongest ship in your list in an attempt to maker them marginally better.

Some of that is deliberate, in that I tend to think people may overlook options that are almost as good/ as good as but harder to play, but I'll save trying to build those lists for later. (Vessery in a Defender- D with tractor beam + ruthless looks fun -- tractor making sure that the target winds up someplace useful).

What you have is not "almost as good." This isn't a case of experienced players "ovelooking" options; there are pilots/ships/upgrades in this game that are subjectively better than others.

That definitely looks good, but I have major thematic objections to running Vader and a FO (or other post Battle of Endor) ship.

Well, I can't help you with that but if you want an awesome ace-killer, Omega Leader is your guy.

Thanks again for the advice. I really do appreciate it. And it (finally) is sinking in to the point where I'm going to dump the Vader/ Squadron leader idea. I may try the squad leader idea again in future, but it won't be with Vader.

That said, and in the interest of using the models I already have (no FO yet, though it's probably (almost certainly) next in line), what do you think of dropping Vader for a Storm Squadron (x1, ATC) to use as a blocker (a role I saw done to good effect in a vide of a store championship)?

It just seems too hard to get both Vessery and Vader kitted out to best effect (and the point savings from Alozen -> Storm aren't enough). A regular TIE ace seems lacking in both firepower and survivability, a shadow Squadron Phantom seems too vulnerable (except maybe as a long range sniper? Possibly with the Stigium particle accelerator? ) ...

I've also shied away from the Interceptors while I'm learning (thinking they might be too fragile w/o shields) but I also toyed with a Vessery + 2 royal guard build so I have a bigger incentive for learning precision flying (with 2 of 'em so I can survive a mistake or two)

Thoughts?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
OR

I could go back to bobcat's Vader (Juke ATC) build that I'd forgotten about.

Apostasus wrote:
Thanks again for the advice. I really do appreciate it. And it (finally) is sinking in to the point where I'm going to dump the Vader/ Squadron leader idea. I may try the squad leader idea again in future, but it won't be with Vader.

Squad Leader sucks. There is almost never a time where a high PS ship would be willing to give up an action to someone else.

That said, and in the interest of using the models I already have (no FO yet, though it's probably (almost certainly) next in line), what do you think of dropping Vader for a Storm Squadron (x1, ATC) to use as a blocker (a role I saw done to good effect in a vide of a store championship)?

Not a good idea. Vader with the right upgrades is one of the better ships in the game. If you want a blocker, go with a Tempest Squadron with AC and take an evade action every turn.

It just seems too hard to get both Vessery and Vader kitted out to best effect (and the point savings from Alozen -> Storm aren't enough). A regular TIE ace seems lacking in both firepower and survivability, a shadow Squadron Phantom seems too vulnerable (except maybe as a long range sniper? Possibly with the Stigium particle accelerator? ) ...

That's because the Defender is overcosted, but it is possible to get a HLC Vessery and Vader in the same list. It's not the most competitive list, but it can be fun.

I've also shied away from the Interceptors while I'm learning (thinking they might be too fragile w/o shields) but I also toyed with a Vessery + 2 royal guard build so I have a bigger incentive for learning precision flying (with 2 of 'em so I can survive a mistake or two)

Sure. It won't be that competitive, but it could be thorn in someone's side if flown right. However, without any real defensive options, Defenders can wither faster than you might expect.

I could go back to bobcat's Vader (Juke ATC) build that I'd forgotten about.

Juke is good on Vader but I prefer the safety of being PS 11, especially in the PS 10 Poe-heavy meta.

Carnor Jax, Turr Phennir and Soontir Fel taught me to fly. You learn to fly Interceptors *well* and you can fly anything.

Blockers are good. 2 Academy TIE Fighters will do you much better than 1 Tempest Squad Pilot, no matter which systems upgrade you give him (here's a hint though, Accuracy Corrector is usually better than ATC on generics)

If you're set on Vessery, I would go ahead and spend enough points on him to make him really good (not cheap without the titles)

Col. Vessery (44)
-Crack Shot
-HLC
-TIE MKII

Then Vader to play clean up
Darth Vader (35)
-VI
-EU
-TIE x/1
-ATC

Then a cheap generic blocker
Tempest Squadron Pilot (21)
-TIE x/1
-Accuracy Corrector

Right on the nose at 100 points.

 House Griffith wrote:
I like your list, but my suggestions (based on my play style, so, grain of salt and all that) are to go with the "optimal" Vader loadout...

Darth Vader (35)
Veteran instincts
Engine Upgrade
Tie /x1
Advanced Targeting Computer

Col Vessery (36)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II

Commander Alozen (29)
Predator
Tie/x1
Advanced targeting Computer

Good luck, bocatt's suggestions are solid as well.

Griffin (and others), going back to this build as a base, what do you think of dropping either Vader's engine upgrade (only) or his VI and Alozen's predator to get a mangler cannon for Vessery (or flachette cannon to a) keep VI on Vader and give Alozen crack shot or another 1pt EPT or b) give Alozen juke)?

(Or, if I want to keep with the TL effects, Lt. Cozlet with accuracy corrector to TL for Vessery's shots, AC so he doesn't need it before the end phase - Vessery (VI, Mangler, eng Mk II) and Vader (all the bells?)

Thanks

Griffin (and others), going back to this build as a base, what do you think of dropping either Vader's engine upgrade (only) or his VI and Alozen's predator to get a mangler cannon for Vessery (or flachette cannon to a) keep VI on Vader and give Alozen crack shot or another 1pt EPT or b) give Alozen juke)?

(Or, if I want to keep with the TL effects, Lt. Cozlet with accuracy corrector to TL for Vessery's shots, AC so he doesn't need it before the end phase - Vessery (VI, Mangler, eng Mk II) and Vader (all the bells?)

Hmm, good question.
Personally, I like keeping VI on Vader since I run into Soontir Fel a lot, and I want to ensure the initiative bid. HOWEVER, I don't know what your meta is...keeping him at PS9 might be fine.
Vader can be flown without EU, but he loses some arc dodging ability. I currently fly him in my current list sans-EU, but that works in that list because the target priority is a factor, and he's just a range 1 bruiser.

I don't like Mangler on Vessery...I don't see a reason to take a cannon that doesn't improve the number of shots (as opposed to a HLC), and one who's special ability requires a hit anyway. To me, a hit's a hit, and you still get the same number of shots from his primary. The only benefit to me would be the denial of an extra evade at range 3 since it's a secondary weapon....meh.

Well, since I forgot about the March 5 release date for Mist Hunter and the Inquisitor, I'm probably going to adjust a bit...

Vader (34)
X1
Engine upgrade
ATC
Adaptability (0 cost +1 PS)

Vessery (40)
Tractor beam
Engine Mk II
Ruthless (triggers damage on an attack that hits)

Alozen (26)
X1
ATC

I'm thinking about the Ruthlessness for the swarm/formation disruption factor (and the Rebel player who's fond of Biggs + R2) and getting damage on a soontir/whisper/Miranda without having to actually hit them. And beyond the direct damage, there's also the area denial effect (similar to how a stressbot can deny large chunks of the board to an action-oriented ace).

But this combination will really be nice with the Defender- D title (tractor, damage, primary weapon, damage )

Apostasus wrote:
Well, since I forgot about the March 5 release date for Mist Hunter and the Inquisitor, I'm probably going to adjust a bit...

Wave VIII isn't going to be out until 3/17.

Spoiler:

Vader (34)
X1
Engine upgrade
ATC
Adaptability (0 cost +1 PS)

Vessery (40)
Tractor beam
Engine Mk II
Ruthless (triggers damage on an attack that hits)

Alozen (26)
X1
ATC

I'm thinking about the Ruthlessness for the swarm/formation disruption factor (and the Rebel player who's fond of Biggs + R2) and getting damage on a soontir/whisper/Miranda without having to actually hit them. And beyond the direct damage, there's also the area denial effect (similar to how a stressbot can deny large chunks of the board to an action-oriented ace).

But this combination will really be nice with the Defender- D title (tractor, damage, primary weapon, damage )

Ruthlessness is not a good card, especially for three points.

Whisper, Fel, and Miranda don't fly in formation so there's a good chance that you'll never use it to hit them. Not to mention that the meta is favoring two and three ship builds; if anyone with a list like that saw a Ruthlessness-toting Vessery across the table, they wouldn't fly in formation (not that they necessarily would be begin with. So now you're left spending three points to waste an otherwise powerful Elite upgrade slot all for something that you probably won't use.

Yeah, 3 points does seem steep for ruthless. But there are so many times that I've looked at a TIE or rebel swarm (or other formation flyers) on a video and wished there was an assault missile or something to disrupt it. (And yeah, 5 points seems like a lot for the missiles too)

Makes me agree with the Team Covenant YouTube commentary wishing there was a way to have a sideboard for tournaments

About the release date, I was confused by the Amazon release date, but that looks like the shipping date.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing: I'm also consider dropping Vader for the Inquisitor (v1, juke/predator, and autothruster) 30-31 points of what seems like some really good action economy to lurk at extended range making 3 dice shots with TL).

He gives up some PS and a hull point on Vader but is significantly cheaper (possibly using the points for stealth device instead of thrusters- I'm not sure which I think is better as a standalone).

Apostasus wrote:
Yeah, 3 points does seem steep for ruthless. But there are so many times that I've looked at a TIE or rebel swarm (or other formation flyers) on a video and wished there was an assault missile or something to disrupt it. (And yeah, 5 points seems like a lot for the missiles too)

Assault Missiles won't disrupt a swarm that badly. Sure it hurts. But they're just TIE Fighters. They were going to die anyway. That's why it's a TIE SWARM and not a TIE 2 SHIP ACE LIST BUILD. TIEs are fragile and have terrible weapons for a reason: they're cheap and expendable.

Dont be afraid of the TIE Swarm. Regular Academies are not competitive or viable and Crack Squadrons are hardly more so because they suffer from almost all of the same problems as regular Academies. They push damage better and they out PS generic Y-wings and B-wings, but an Aces list will still fly circles around them and pick them apart little by little, destroying whichever ship has firing arc before it can actually fire.

I don't know about the FO swarm. I have no data points to reference.

Rebel Formation flyers in my experience dont benefit enough from flying in formation for the disruption to bother them that much.

If you see a formation brick on the table your best bet will be a ship you brought with Ion bombs. Those actually mess up formations. Because formations depend on good maneuvers/ing probably even more so than Interceptors or Phantoms. Set 2-4 of them adrift and suddenly the Swarm player is scrambling to stay in formation and all of their ships are now easy pickins. Especially if you get some bumping going on where they start to lose their actions. It even hurts Biggs and R2. Ion is a white maneuver so no shield for that turn and with a good block, he's now a sitting duck with 1 or no shields and no action.

Speaking of: I haven't seen Biggs in like 6 months. Even with the IA update/fix and a still relevant Pilot ability, there's just no reason to bring him, to add durability to ships that are already superbly durable due to out math-winging every other ship in the game. *cough* Poe Dameron *cough* The ships in question *cough* Poe *cough* also dont want to be tied to R1 formation with a basic X-wing when they have access to native boost and a maneuver which no other ship in the game has access to *cough* cheater's t-roll *cough* and makes them a better arc dodger than Interceptors or A-wings. Especially if it's WHITE. *cough* Ello Asty *cough*

Wow I must be getting sick.

Makes me agree with the Team Covenant YouTube commentary wishing there was a way to have a sideboard for tournaments

I'd rather it not. Swarms are NOT that strong and list tailoring, even to a minor degree such as "oh you brought a swarm? Guess I'll just happen to have Assault Missiles " is the antithesis of fun. The game is already hyper competitive as it stands but some people forget that it is just a game.

Another thing: I'm also consider dropping Vader for the Inquisitor (v1, juke/predator, and autothruster) 30-31 points of what seems like some really good action economy to lurk at extended range making 3 dice shots with TL).

The TAP has 1 green turns and banks on its dial. There's no reason not to take Push the Limit and get the full three actions of TL/evade and a focus/boost/barrel roll

He gives up some PS and a hull point on Vader but is significantly cheaper (possibly using the points for stealth device instead of thrusters- I'm not sure which I think is better as a standalone).

Thrusters is better.

 bocatt wrote:
Dont be afraid of the TIE Swarm. Regular Academies are not competitive or viable and Crack Squadrons are hardly more so because they suffer from almost all of the same problems as regular Academies. They push damage better and they out PS generic Y-wings and B-wings, but an Aces list will still fly circles around them and pick them apart little by little, destroying whichever ship has firing arc before it can actually fire.

Swarms are NOT that strong .

You haven't flown against a well played swarm then.

For one, swarms and mini-swarms had a respectable showing in the top 32 of Worlds last year, including a Black Squadron Crack Shot swarm flown by the French Nationals winner.

Because the lowly TIE fighter is the best ship in the game, coupled by the fact that they have some seriously good pilots, TIE swarms will always be around and always be good.

Another thing: I'm also consider dropping Vader for the Inquisitor (v1, juke/predator, and autothruster) 30-31 points of what seems like some really good action economy to lurk at extended range making 3 dice shots with TL).

He gives up some PS and a hull point on Vader but is significantly cheaper (possibly using the points for stealth device instead of thrusters- I'm not sure which I think is better as a standalone).

I don't disagree; the Inquisitor is cool, but only having 2 hull kind of freaks me out. Especially with Wampa seeing heavy use. You've also got to be on the lookout for Doomshuttles (Lambda or Decimator + Vader crew).
I'd probably go with PTL on the Inquisitor, and wind up with a possible 3x actions (adding the v1 title), as well as increased arc dodge capability thanks to the native boost/roll. If there's points room, prockets will be fun too.
I still think Vader is (and will be) better, but since I haven't had a chance to fly the Inquisitor (c'mon, wave 8!), I can't speak from experience.