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So, both of these have a rule that applies a set value. Culexus has a rule that says,

Psykers, friend or foe, within 12" of a Culexus Assassin have -3 Leadership, do not generate any Warp Charge (i.e. they do not add dice to their owning player’s Warp Charge Pool in the Psychic phase) and only harness Warp Charge points on a 6

While the Seer Council has a rule that says:

When models from this Formation make Psychic tests, results of 3+ will harness a Warp Charge point

Is there one that takes precedence based on something in a book(if so, please cite book/page), or is this something that simply must be house ruled? I know the ITC has a house rule for similar things where if two opposing things make you hit on a set value, the player who's turn it is picks which value to use.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
I know the ITC has a house rule for similar things where if two opposing things make you hit on a set value, the player who's turn it is picks which value to use.

That's not really a house rule. See 'Sequencing' on page 17 of the main rulebook.

The Culexes rule tops the seer council rule considering it says "only harness."

Yeah, I see the relation there, Ghaz, but I don't think an opponent would accept me pointing to the "Sequencing" section to tell them that I get to choose to have my Culexus not affect my Seer council, since it doesn't seem to be a sequencing issue(at least on the surface).

I do understand that if you apply the special rules 1 after another, whichever one is applied last will be the one that works. It's just that neither of these special rules has a particular time when it's supposed to be applied. They're both always active.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
The Culexes rule tops the seer council rule considering it says "only harness."

Hmm, I'm sorry, but that seems pretty flimsy to me. One says always on 3+, the other says only 6+. Only doesn't really indicate that it overrides a similar ability.


To put this in perspective, consider that they're both models owned and fielded by the same player in the same army.

It has to be House Ruled.

There is a section in General Principles called Basic vs Advanced. It details levels to rules with all the basic rules that happen in a Phase or detailed in General Principles, and Advanced Rules that come later like Unit Type and USRs..

This section also details that rules from a Codex are more Advanced than the ones in the rulebook.

If there is a conflict, the more Advanced Rule takes precedent.

Unfortunately, nothing is stated as which is more advanced between codex rules.

It is not uncommon for some people to roll off at that point and abide by it for the game. It is also not uncommon for some people to give precedence to the unit/rule which belongs to whose turn it is.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
The Culexes rule tops the seer council rule considering it says "only harness."

Hmm, I'm sorry, but that seems pretty flimsy to me. One says always on 3+, the other says only 6+. Only doesn't really indicate that it overrides a similar ability.

You bet its a flimsy argument; however, it can be argued that adding the word "only" makes the Culexes rule more advanced.

The Culexes rule is more advanced as it only affects Psykers within its range.

The real question is how in the heck a Culexus is within 12" of the Seer council in the first place? If they're in the same army, don't move them close. If the enemy drops a Culexus within 1" of the Seer Council, they can just move away.

Don't you know Seer council has to be mounted on Jetbikes? That's like an unwritten Restriction.

Fragile wrote:
The Culexes rule is more advanced as it only affects Psykers within its range.

Couldn't the same be said of the Seer Council? Their rule only affects the Psykers bought as part of their Formation.

I'm gonna have to go with Sequencing on this one. If we both have 2 rules that happen at the same time, I choose the order in my turn, you choose in your turn.

--

The +3 casting for seer would be in operation first, as it applies throughout the game. When the culexus moves with 12" (or the seer moves), the culexus' rule would then affect the seer. The rule for culexus assassins covers more than just the warp charge, as it includes the reduced ld. As they would be affected by one part of the rule, they'd also be affected by the other.

At least that's how I follow the logic of the rules.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
The Culexes rule tops the seer council rule considering it says "only harness."

Hmm, I'm sorry, but that seems pretty flimsy to me. One says always on 3+, the other says only 6+. Only doesn't really indicate that it overrides a similar ability.

You bet its a flimsy argument; however, it can be argued that adding the word "only" makes the Culexes rule more advanced.

Not really. There is nothing about the word "only" that could be viewed as more advanced. That's like saying "Dog food" is more advanced than "Food" because of the addition of the word "dog". It's not. It could even be argued that dog food is far LESS advanced than regular food. But regardless, there are no "Levels" of advanced rules in this game. There are only "basic" rules, and "advanced" rules. Nothing in between. No Advanced version 2.0, 3.0 etc. So, when two advanced rules are in conflict, you generally resolve based on where the rule is from: Codex>BRB. If they're both from a codex, then you have to house rule it or otherwise come up with your own method of figuring out how you will rule it(like rolling off, or allowing the player who's turn it is to decide). I generally think allowing the player who's turn it is to decide is most fair, since the rule will function in each player's favor 50% of the time. Yours during your turn, mine during my turn.


Again, so there is no confusion: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "MORE ADVANCED" IN 40k! Only basic and advanced. No other levels. It's been over a decade since that's been a thing guy's, come on. Get with the times.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
The Culexes rule tops the seer council rule considering it says "only harness."

Hmm, I'm sorry, but that seems pretty flimsy to me. One says always on 3+, the other says only 6+. Only doesn't really indicate that it overrides a similar ability.

You bet its a flimsy argument; however, it can be argued that adding the word "only" makes the Culexes rule more advanced.

Not really. There is nothing about the word "only" that could be viewed as more advanced. That's like saying "Dog food" is more advanced than "Food" because of the addition of the word "dog". It's not. It could even be argued that dog food is far LESS advanced than regular food. But regardless, there are no "Levels" of advanced rules in this game. There are only "basic" rules, and "advanced" rules. Nothing in between. No Advanced version 2.0, 3.0 etc. So, when two advanced rules are in conflict, you generally resolve based on where the rule is from: Codex>BRB. If they're both from a codex, then you have to house rule it or otherwise come up with your own method of figuring out how you will rule it(like rolling off, or allowing the player who's turn it is to decide). I generally think allowing the player who's turn it is to decide is most fair, since the rule will function in each player's favor 50% of the time. Yours during your turn, mine during my turn.

Technically, dog food is more advanced than food because it is specifically for dogs.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
The Culexes rule tops the seer council rule considering it says "only harness."

Hmm, I'm sorry, but that seems pretty flimsy to me. One says always on 3+, the other says only 6+. Only doesn't really indicate that it overrides a similar ability.

You bet its a flimsy argument; however, it can be argued that adding the word "only" makes the Culexes rule more advanced.

Not really. There is nothing about the word "only" that could be viewed as more advanced. That's like saying "Dog food" is more advanced than "Food" because of the addition of the word "dog". It's not. It could even be argued that dog food is far LESS advanced than regular food. But regardless, there are no "Levels" of advanced rules in this game. There are only "basic" rules, and "advanced" rules. Nothing in between. No Advanced version 2.0, 3.0 etc. So, when two advanced rules are in conflict, you generally resolve based on where the rule is from: Codex>BRB. If they're both from a codex, then you have to house rule it or otherwise come up with your own method of figuring out how you will rule it(like rolling off, or allowing the player who's turn it is to decide). I generally think allowing the player who's turn it is to decide is most fair, since the rule will function in each player's favor 50% of the time. Yours during your turn, mine during my turn.

Technically, dog food is more advanced than food because it is specifically for dogs.

Being specifically for a decidedly less advanced species doesn't make it more advanced. But I digress, it doesn't matter because in 40k, there is no such thing as "more advanced", only advanced, of which they both apply.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
The Culexes rule tops the seer council rule considering it says "only harness."

Hmm, I'm sorry, but that seems pretty flimsy to me. One says always on 3+, the other says only 6+. Only doesn't really indicate that it overrides a similar ability.

You bet its a flimsy argument; however, it can be argued that adding the word "only" makes the Culexes rule more advanced.

Not really. There is nothing about the word "only" that could be viewed as more advanced. That's like saying "Dog food" is more advanced than "Food" because of the addition of the word "dog". It's not. It could even be argued that dog food is far LESS advanced than regular food. But regardless, there are no "Levels" of advanced rules in this game. There are only "basic" rules, and "advanced" rules. Nothing in between. No Advanced version 2.0, 3.0 etc. So, when two advanced rules are in conflict, you generally resolve based on where the rule is from: Codex>BRB. If they're both from a codex, then you have to house rule it or otherwise come up with your own method of figuring out how you will rule it(like rolling off, or allowing the player who's turn it is to decide). I generally think allowing the player who's turn it is to decide is most fair, since the rule will function in each player's favor 50% of the time. Yours during your turn, mine during my turn.

Technically, dog food is more advanced than food because it is specifically for dogs.

Being specifically for a decidedly less advanced species doesn't make it more advanced. But I digress, it doesn't matter because in 40k, there is no such thing as "more advanced", only advanced, of which they both apply.

The Culexes rule is more advanced by far, as the others have stated and given their backing on

Fragile wrote:The Culexes rule is more advanced as it only affects Psykers within its range.

As if that was how "more advanced" was measured in this game...

JamesY wrote:The +3 casting for seer would be in operation first, as it applies throughout the game. When the culexus moves with 12" (or the seer moves), the culexus' rule would then affect the seer. The rule for culexus assassins covers more than just the warp charge, as it includes the reduced ld. As they would be affected by one part of the rule, they'd also be affected by the other.

This indicates you need to reread the Sequencing rule.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:Again, so there is no confusion: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "MORE ADVANCED" IN 40k! Only basic and advanced. No other levels. It's been over a decade since that's been a thing guy's, come on. Get with the times.

The "more advanced" is a euphemism to represent this: "On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence." It is only meant to portray the concept of higher precedence, not to represent a literal statement in the rulebook.

@Charistoph not at all. The seer unit is clearly affected by the rule, as their ld will be be reduced, and they can't contribute to the warp charges generated. As nothing in the seers rule conflicts with this, it is explicitly clear that they are affected by the rule, and are therefore affected by the whole rule. The sequencing rule doesn't come into effect.

Just because only half a rule conflicts with another rule does not mean the first rule takes complete precedence. The Culexus' effect isn't blocked, just that it happens then it gets overwritten again when the Seer Council rule comes in. In long terms, it means the Seer Council Harnesses on 4+, then it becomes 6+, then it becomes 3+. None of the rules are actually "stopped", but just consecutively overwritten.

The Sequencing Section is about as clear as you'll get. Namely the controlling player's turn gets to decide (which means that the last part of the Culexus's ability will probably never come into play unless the Farseer's owner wants it to) or, if you wanna be ass about it, dice off. Until GW clearly states that there are different layers of rules and which way they resolve, there won't be a clearer answer.

@ Mech sequencing only comes into play when it isn't clear which rule would be activated first. The culexus' rule comes into effect during in the movement phase, as it affects the ld of psykers. As a fleeing psyker within 12" would take it's regroup check (affected by the rule) in the movement phase, the effects of psychic abomination are in active before the seer council's rules come into play, they don't happen simultaneously. The rule already in play says powers are only generated on a 6+. There would only be an argument if the seer rules said always harnessed on a 3+.


But completely agree, this should never actually come up in game.

Two things wrong with the "Culexus's effect activates first" argument:

1.) both rules don't have "activations". They're simply there since the beginning of the game. You can't choose a time for one to simply turn off nor declare when one comes into play. It starts affecting things the moment the Culexus is on the board and something is in range, and it treats itself as if it's always there.

2.) Sequencing specifically mentions when thing RESOLVE, not when they activate. When you try to harness something, both rules affect the harnessing, hence both try to resolve at the same time. Neither of them cares who got there first, just who finishes first.

Also, fun fact: the word "activate" only exists in two instances in the digital rulebook. Once talking about the fluff behind a Vortex attack and once about some guardsmen during the Assault on Atika.

JamesY wrote:@Charistoph not at all. The seer unit is clearly affected by the rule, as their ld will be be reduced, and they can't contribute to the warp charges generated. As nothing in the seers rule conflicts with this, it is explicitly clear that they are affected by the rule, and are therefore affected by the whole rule. The sequencing rule doesn't come into effect.

Precisely, the timing of when it applies does not matter. Just because something happens first, does not mean something replaces it just because it is new.

 Charistoph wrote:

Fragile wrote:The Culexes rule is more advanced as it only affects Psykers within its range.

As if that was how "more advanced" was measured in this game...

Quite simply it is.

For each individual result of 4+, the Psyker has successfully harnessed one Warp Charge point

Psychic Might modifies this to a 3+

When models from this Formation make Psychic tests, results of 3+ will harness a Warp Charge point instead of results of a 4+

Clearly indicating it is meant to replace that basic rule by making it one easier to harness.

Psychic Abomination: Psykers, friend or foe, within 12" of a Culexus Assassin have -3 Leadership, do not generate Warp Charge (ie, they do not add dice to their owning players Warp Charge Pool in the Psychic Phase) and only harness warp charge points on a 6.

Shows that Psykers within its range are affect by a very specific set of penalties.

So you have one rule that states that you replace a 4 with a 3, and another rule that sets a series of penalties for being within 12". One is clearly more specific.

Fragile wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Fragile wrote:The Culexes rule is more advanced as it only affects Psykers within its range.

As if that was how "more advanced" was measured in this game...

Quite simply it is.

Okay, review the Basic vs Advanced and demonstrate where position and range define the level of "advancedness" a rule possesses.

Now, it could be classed as more restricted in use, but that is not entirely the same thing.

I wouldn't even say that one is definitively more specific than the other; while Fragile's argument is that applying to models within a certain range is more specific than those models' own abilities, one could argue that the Culexus' rule applies to all Psyker odmels within said range, while a Seer Council applies to a Seer Council unit of Psykers, making it more specific.

I have to agree though that specific versus general is not necessarily the same as advanced versus basic, and in this case I think more correctly we have two advanced rules conflicting with each other.

Would that mean that a Librarius Conclave would generate on a 2+ because of sequencing as well? :p

This does seem to be pretty clear to me, that it harnesses on a 6+, and I'm an eldar player. I can see the confusion with the RAW but I would be absolutely stunned if any tournament ref ruled the other way. The culexus is for all intents an purposes, a 12" bubble of no psychic activity.

A similar example involving the culexus with khan (always hits on a X, can only be hit on Y), says it depends on whose turn it is, but that doesnt really apply, here (and I think that ruling is a sitting on the fence to not upset anyone and is a bit dumb).

Even if it does come up, I doubt it would have much significance, because any blessing or conjuration is nullified as soon as it's cast.

I think I would play it as 3+ due to sequencing but again, Culexus' other rules should make the point of casting powers moot.

Typically, I would say its the controlling players decision as to order, much like Kharne vs. Invisibility.

However, the only time the seer council is generating warp charge is in that player's turn, meaning it would always be a 3+ thereby ignoring the rule.

My take is that the culexus rule, given its a specific 12" bubble would override the 3+ ability. Its not like the player can't just hop away most of the time and make this point moot.

Kharn and Invisibility conflict as they both contain absolutes in their wording, i.e. always versus only. The seer's rule contains no such absolute, they cast on a +3. The Culexus overrides this as it does contain an absolute, two in fact, any psyker, and only cast on a six.

I'm a grey knights player primarily, so I am on the loosing end of this debate when using the gk formation that grants the same bonus.

I don't intend to contribute to this cycle further, so I'll agree to disagree with those who think differently.

At first I thought this was a sequencing issue, but now I believe the Culexus may have this. Even if you sequence it that one happens before another, they are both in "effect"

Culexus makes psykers "only" harness on 6+
Seer council is "allowed" to harness on 3+

So we end up with is a Psyker unit that "can" harness WC on 3+, but only on 6's while in range of the Culexus.
Again, though, this dicuss is a moot point considering it is almost IMPOSSIBLE for a Seer Council to be within 12" of a Culexus during the Psychic Phase. Reason: Jetbikes

The only circumstance I can think of is running a Skyhammer with a Culexus in a pod somehow. The Assault Marines drop down, charge the Seer Council and the Eldar player was dumb enough NOT to have a Hit & Run character in the unit.

--

 Galef wrote:
At first I thought this was a sequencing issue, but now I believe the Culexus may have this. Even if you sequence it that one happens before another, they are both in "effect"

Culexus makes psykers "only" harness on 6+
Seer council is "allowed" to harness on 3+

So we end up with is a Psyker unit that "can" harness WC on 3+, but only on 6's while in range of the Culexus.
Again, though, this dicuss is a moot point considering it is almost IMPOSSIBLE for a Seer Council to be within 12" of a Culexus during the Psychic Phase. Reason: Jetbikes

The only circumstance I can think of is running a Skyhammer with a Culexus in a pod somehow. The Assault Marines drop down, charge the Seer Council and the Eldar player was dumb enough NOT to have a Hit & Run character in the unit.

--

not impossible, just unlikely. Put the Seer council in the corner of the board, and the culexus 10" away from them, they have no move that is possible to leave his zone of influence. Also after any deep strike mishap. Sorry for nitpicking but this is the internet, what else is there to do

I guess I meant it is impossible for a competent player to let the Culexus be within 12" during their Psychic phase. If you have made the decision to use a Seer Council, you need to know how to use them ESPECIALLY if your opponent has a Culexus.

Who puts a Seer council in the corner? "Nobody puts Baby in a corner!"