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Why in the world are Scions Ld 7?

This literally makes no sense. Based on GW own descriptions these are super soldiers (not on par with Space Marines obviously...). GW claims they are virtually incorruptible and Commissars are drawn from the same pool of men who end up becoming Scions. Would it really of been that bad to give a standard Scion Ld 8?

Might not really be a big deal in the grand scheme of things but it is something that kind of irked me and made me take a second glance.

Meh. I am still going to make them work as my main army.

It's fairly absurd that they're just BS4 guardsmen with AP3 wet-noodle guns. Alas, GW doesn't seem to get why they're not particularly popular and Stormtroopers haven't been spectacularly functional since...ever. They *should* have a higher Ld and WS to fill the archetypal "stormtrooper" role, but alas.

Skitarii Vanguard ended up with pretty much the exact rules and weapons I'd always hoped for Stormtroopers to have since 4E.

Yeah thats a shame... Now look were it got us. They have there own faction...

My buddies and I just came back to the game and I chose to take up Astra Militarum.

I decided I would make my entire army out of Scions because standard guardsmen are not something I really like. I do however like the Guard vehicle models.

I thought to myself since I am buying so many boxes of Scions why not try and run them as an army of their own. Needless to say they don't really work on their own especially because of the extreme lack of long ranged support.

Maybe a 500 pt contingency of Inquisition or Space Marines will help fill it out. Not really sure at this point.

There has to be a way and I will not give up hope!

^^ Scions in Taurox Primes, which can be loaded up with some long range weapons, work pretty well in my experience.

Yeah, the fact that they don't have better leadership than a standard Guardsman is pretty lame. I think they should autopass orders too, since they're supposed to be these obedient, programmed, elite soldiers.

TheMostWize wrote:
My buddies and I just came back to the game and I chose to take up Astra Militarum.

I decided I would make my entire army out of Scions because standard guardsmen are not something I really like. I do however like the Guard vehicle models.

I thought to myself since I am buying so many boxes of Scions why not try and run them as an army of their own. Needless to say they don't really work on their own especially because of the extreme lack of long ranged support.

Maybe a 500 pt contingency of Inquisition or Space Marines will help fill it out. Not really sure at this point.

There has to be a way and I will not give up hope!

In the fluff, the way Scions operate is very similar to the game.

They don't tend to operate alone, usually supporting the rest of the Imperial forces, who provide them with ranged support as the Scions as the tip of the spear to strike at key enemy targets.

I'd suggest get some Guardsmen, use minimal Veteran Squads in an Allied Detachment and fill the rest in with ranged units, or ally in some Artillery Company Formation from the Kauyon book (I think).

 Vaktathi wrote:
It's fairly absurd that they're just BS4 guardsmen with AP3 wet-noodle guns. Alas, GW doesn't seem to get why they're not particularly popular and Stormtroopers haven't been spectacularly functional since...ever. They *should* have a higher Ld and WS to fill the archetypal "stormtrooper" role, but alas.

Skitarii Vanguard ended up with pretty much the exact rules and weapons I'd always hoped for Stormtroopers to have since 4E.

2nd ed they weren't that bad. 130pts for squad rather than 100pts which includes hotshot weapons(+1S) and mandatory veteran ability for which you don't pay anything. One of the best especially due to lasguns being probably 1's to hit rerolled though extra cover help is pretty sweet. Any cover and even space marines are hitting on 5+. Hard cover and marines are hitting on 6's(short of them coming close enough to get plus modifiers).

Though still albeit bit lackluster but not as horrible as current ones. Biggest problem being that the price of squad is fixed regardless of what ability to give. Since they vary from 5 pts to 25 pts what you pay for your hotshot lasguns is effectively variable.

(run and shoot is also funny though -1 to hit sucks a bit)

Stormies are only Ld7? Ugh. Standards must be slipping at the Scholam...

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Stormies are only Ld7? Ugh. Standards must be slipping at the Scholam...

Lol obviously. However the Commissars that come from the same group of candidates are still LD 9 and 10. I mean give them stubborn at least or something to make up for the lack of Ld. I would bet that they are a little bit more disciplined and dedicated to a fight then standard guardsmen.

A space marine has LD 8. Do you think they are at the level of fearlessness of a space marine? Really? Space marines should be fearless. Nothing makes sense about LD in this game.

 Xenomancers wrote:
A space marine has LD 8. Do you think they are at the level of fearlessness of a space marine? Really? Space marines should be fearless. Nothing makes sense about LD in this game.

And a Commissar has LD 9 and 10 respectively. Yes I do think it is very possible that the Scions could be as fearless as the Space Marines. Doesn't mean they are stronger it just means they have a dedication to their cause strong enough that they are willing to stand and fight a little longer. Space Marines probably should be fearless. Or maybe leave them at Ld 8 and give them stubborn.

You are certainly correct that many things about Ld do not make sense. But there are certain instances I am sure it still makes sense. Do hive creatures still give units within range fearless?

 Xenomancers wrote:
A space marine has LD 8. Do you think they are at the level of fearlessness of a space marine? Really? Space marines should be fearless. Nothing makes sense about LD in this game.

Scions with LD8 wouldn't be as brave as space marines though.

Not that i expect LD to change. That's been set since 2nd ed.

 Xenomancers wrote:
A space marine has LD 8. Do you think they are at the level of fearlessness of a space marine? Really? Space marines should be fearless. Nothing makes sense about LD in this game.

Ld isnt just about fearlessness, its a combination of what once was three stats, Intelligence, Cool (ability to maintaim under fire), and Leadership (ability to command).

That said, in most cases, Stormtrooper training in those regards would be very similar to Space Marines. They dont have power armor or generic enhancements, but they have years of intense training and indoctrination through most of their early lives, not all that meaningfully different from a Space Marine.

 Xenomancers wrote:
A space marine has LD 8. Do you think they are at the level of fearlessness of a space marine? Really? Space marines should be fearless. Nothing makes sense about LD in this game.

They have ATSKNF - which is better

Stormtroopers are indoctronated.

Soroitas are religious fanatics - Ld8

Storm troops would be better off with boosted weapon skill and Assault weapons instead of some pathetic short ranged rapid fire weapon. Then again little in the Elites section of the Guard codex makes much sense or is anywhere near good for its points cost so...

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
A space marine has LD 8. Do you think they are at the level of fearlessness of a space marine? Really? Space marines should be fearless. Nothing makes sense about LD in this game.

They have ATSKNF - which is better

Stormtroopers are indoctronated.

Soroitas are religious fanatics - Ld8

Fearless is way better IMO. ATSKNF is unrealible - it's great when you can chose to pass or fail though - then it's a lot better.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
A space marine has LD 8. Do you think they are at the level of fearlessness of a space marine? Really? Space marines should be fearless. Nothing makes sense about LD in this game.

Ld isnt just about fearlessness, its a combination of what once was three stats, Intelligence, Cool (ability to maintaim under fire), and Leadership (ability to command).

That said, in most cases, Stormtrooper training in those regards would be very similar to Space Marines. They dont have power armor or generic enhancements, but they have years of intense training and indoctrination through most of their early lives, not all that meaningfully different from a Space Marine.

Yea this is all I was getting at. These aren't guardsmen who are taken off the street handed a lasgun given some basic infantry training and told to go win a war. These guys go through years and years of training and literally raised to be soldiers. In reality it doesn't matter all that much the codex suffers from many other issues. I just thought it was very odd that they are placed on a level of Intelligence, Leadership and calm under pressure as a guardsmen who has had significantly less training than them.

Has anyone here tried to play them as their primary detachment?

TheMostWize wrote:
Yea this is all I was getting at. These aren't guardsmen who are taken off the street handed a lasgun given some basic infantry training and told to go win a war. These guys go through years and years of training and literally raised to be soldiers. In reality it doesn't matter all that much the codex suffers from many other issues. I just thought it was very odd that they are placed on a level of Intelligence, Leadership and calm under pressure as a guardsmen who has had significantly less training than them.

Has anyone here tried to play them as their primary detachment?

Well that's how they have been since 2nd ed. Though there you could take veteran skill to help them in moral department(either ignore all ld checks except break tests which they only take if they lose half the members in turn or 3d6 pick 2 lowest).

But yeah that's actually kinda odd. I think we introduce +1LD for them muy pronto. They don't suck quite as bad as in 7th ed but they are still bit lackluster for points.

MFW Stormtrooper comes from the german unit which stormed and infiltrated enemy trenches.

They're nothing like it.

Tbh, they need a firing mode selector or doctrines or both or soemthing. or should cost like 10ppm, lel. I still like them tho.

Or just pump them to str4, ap3. Now that should make them real elite.

there is the fluff justification for tau fire warriors having ld7 as well. A willingness to fight, but a desire to preserve their forces for a more important engagement in the future.

 drunken0elf wrote:
MFW Stormtrooper comes from the german unit which stormed and infiltrated enemy trenches.

They're nothing like it.

Tbh, they need a firing mode selector or doctrines or both or soemthing. or should cost like 10ppm, lel. I still like them tho.

Or just pump them to str4, ap3. Now that should make them real elite.

Don't get me wrong I still love them it's why I want to base my army around them. I am not a WAAC player I like to play things that I think look cool and I think the Scions look great. That and I have never played guard before so I figured why not try something new as I make my transition back into the hobby.

 drunken0elf wrote:
MFW Stormtrooper comes from the german unit which stormed and infiltrated enemy trenches.

They're nothing like it.

Tbh, they need a firing mode selector or doctrines or both or soemthing. or should cost like 10ppm, lel. I still like them tho.

Or just pump them to str4, ap3. Now that should make them real elite.

Aye, thats why I always hoped for them to get something like the Skitarii Vanguard rules. An Assault 3 S3 18" gun and a bit of CC and infiltrate/DS ability. Drop the AP3, give them WS4 and change the gun as above and tack on Furious Charge and a pistol/CCW combo with Ld8/9(sergeant) and run them a bit cheaper and all of a sudden they become both useful and thematically appropriate.

AP3 on Rapid Fire 18" S3 guns is pretty fething pointless, and they pay out the nose for it.

For some daft reason I have a soft spot for these guys, my biggest problem is that there isn't much to differentiate them from veterans and secondly their deepstrike going to waste if using transports.
The recurring ideas I've seen posted are making them WS4 and hotshots assault 2 to cover the whole storming the trenches kind of thing.
Ld 8 and stubborn would be nice but it treads on the toes of comissars, either the commissar role would need to change (I'm thinking of being able give orders to just their squad for the basic sort and maybe reserve rerolls for the lord commissar to simulate political influence giving him more resources, oh and give them both deepstrike so they can stick with their squads) or an alternative boost for morale, how about rerolling all leadership tests when with in 6" of an objective and call it "mission comes first".
Finally give command squads 2 orders per turn, and squads the opportunity to swap deepstrike for the ability to assault from transports when deployed by Taurox or Valkyrie.

Would make them half decent shock troops for bullying weaker troops off objectives but would still get demolished by CC and shooting specialists.

P.S bit of an after thought, alternatively they could have and inspiring presence rather than treading on the toes of command squads and perhaps give FnP and furious charge due to troops pushing on through injuries or a frenzied charge to the exemplar of imperial law beside them.
Just seems a bit odd having the elite being spurred on by fear of death after surviving the scholem

ragnorack1 wrote:
For some daft reason I have a soft spot for these guys, my biggest problem is that there isn't much to differentiate them from veterans and secondly their deepstrike going to waste if using transports.
The recurring ideas I've seen posted are making them WS4 and hotshots assault 2 to cover the whole storming the trenches kind of thing.
Ld 8 and stubborn would be nice but it treads on the toes of comissars, either the commissar role would need to change (I'm thinking of being able give orders to just their squad for the basic sort and maybe reserve rerolls for the lord commissar to simulate political influence giving him more resources, oh and give them both deepstrike so they can stick with their squads) or an alternative boost for morale, how about rerolling all leadership tests when with in 6" of an objective and call it "mission comes first".
Finally give command squads 2 orders per turn, and squads the opportunity to swap deepstrike for the ability to assault from transports when deployed by Taurox or Valkyrie.

Would make them half decent shock troops for bullying weaker troops off objectives but would still get demolished by CC and shooting specialists.

P.S bit of an after thought, alternatively they could have and inspiring presence rather than treading on the toes of command squads and perhaps give FnP and furious charge due to troops pushing on through injuries or a frenzied charge to the exemplar of imperial law beside them.
Just seems a bit odd having the elite being spurred on by fear of death after surviving the scholem

Yea I am likely going to run them as Veterans in my army for the time being just because for the points the veterans are essentially better with a wider range of options like the Chimera as a transport. I agree there are several things that would make them more useful and actually playable but I doubt that any of it would actually happen.

Having served in the military and working side by side with MARSOC for several raids I can honestly say there is a different attitude when men have been trained extensively to be warfighters. Sure the average guy has courage to a certain point and there are always going to be the John Basilone types in the world. But working with special forces there is a sense of confidence in ability that makes you stay in the fight a little longer and push through things that are a little tougher because you know the things you have learned in all your training will help you resolve the situation.

It certainly seems as though they treat the scions as guardsmen who get AP3 guns and that is all and the fact that have had the training they have means nothing.

Not really sure where the disconnect is but oh well. At least they are good looking models.

S4 AP3 assault 2/3

I could live with that - they would be worth their points (finally).

TheMostWize wrote:
However the Commissars that come from the same group of candidates are still LD 9 and 10. I mean give them stubborn at least or something to make up for the lack of Ld.

Their command squads have Clarion-Vox Net, that gives all Scion squads within 18" LD9 for Fear/Pinning/Morale.

Just saying, as I haven't seen it mentioned yet in the thread.

Even Assault 2 alone would be a massive buff.

I was also really sad that the new Scions didn't come with CCW alongside their hotshot laspistol like their previous incarnations as stormtroopers, it was cool going "commando" and charging guys like Tau with 3 attacks each on the charge.

 master of ordinance wrote:
S4 AP3 assault 2/3

I could live with that - they would be worth their points (finally).

Weren't they using hellguns in the old editions which was str4? or am I mistaking it with the inquisition stormtroopers?

And yes the str4 would be a nice buff that would make them a lot better while still making them fair priced. Oh and the sgt tax.. we don't need it . 22 points for a 1 wound sgt with a worst gun then the regular scion is jjust wrong.

TheMostWize wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
A space marine has LD 8. Do you think they are at the level of fearlessness of a space marine? Really? Space marines should be fearless. Nothing makes sense about LD in this game.

Ld isnt just about fearlessness, its a combination of what once was three stats, Intelligence, Cool (ability to maintaim under fire), and Leadership (ability to command).

That said, in most cases, Stormtrooper training in those regards would be very similar to Space Marines. They dont have power armor or generic enhancements, but they have years of intense training and indoctrination through most of their early lives, not all that meaningfully different from a Space Marine.

Yea this is all I was getting at. These aren't guardsmen who are taken off the street handed a lasgun given some basic infantry training and told to go win a war. These guys go through years and years of training and literally raised to be soldiers. In reality it doesn't matter all that much the codex suffers from many other issues. I just thought it was very odd that they are placed on a level of Intelligence, Leadership and calm under pressure as a guardsmen who has had significantly less training than them.

Has anyone here tried to play them as their primary detachment?

Last time I checked weren't guardsmen supposed to be the best of the best from a recruiting worlds planet.... I thought a mandatory blamming was given to governors who provided substandard troops without reason?

I would say fluffwise they're closer to normal guardsmens LD than SM.... especially seeing traditionally stormtroopers didn't A) used to be as indocrinated as they are now or B) Only represent inquisitorial storm troopers