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I keep posts saying that all list tailoring is wrong. Well, I don't think that's true. If my buddy says he's bringing Tau and I know he's got at least 3 Riptides in his collection, I'm gonna bring Grav. Now I think that's just giving me my best shot at a good game. That being said, I'd never list tailor against a new player or someone who said "Hey, I just want to have a casual, no cheese game". I would also never list tailor 5 minutes before the match, once I saw my friend setting up his models.

Edit: added Necrons to the poll.

You shouldn't even know you are playing Tau. At least in my mind. It's actually hard to even bring enough grav to take on triple Riptide, so I don't think tailoring is necessary.

List tailoring isn't necessarily wrong, but the more you know as well as the more models you own in a particular army, the easier it is to list tailor. This is exactly why I play 1,500 points or less when playing against my Dark Angels mate - I have limited modela and they have everything they need to counter my very limited 2,000 point lists.

In other words: List tailoring should generally be avoided because 9 times out of 10, it will end badly.

In a tournament setting, list building (tailoring) is key.

I said other:

It's not kosher, unless both parties know about it.

Tailoring against meta is good. Building a list that can deal with Taudar is hardly list tailoring.

In friendlies, list tailoring down to your opponents level can actually make for a better game and negotiating about the power level of the game you want to play is very important for keeping friends.

If you look at your list and think 'I'd take this list to a tournament' then it probably isn't list tailoring.

If my opponent and I openly discuss which armies we're bringing, I would think list tailoring is kind of expected in that instance.

If I am told by an outside source what my opponent plays, I might try to get a couple of units in that are specifically good against that, but are also still good all-around, as you never know when someone is going to defy expectation. In this instance, I may also try to contact the opponent and see if they wanted it to be a battle where we didn't know what the other was bringing, and let them know what I'm going to bring.

Against a new player? Here's my thoughts on this: If they just want a game, no. If they're trying to learn and want to find out what challenges they will face, I think I'd throw in like one power unit to coach them how to play it. At this point, I'm not really that qualified to do so, being new myself, but that's my ideal situation.

If they specifically want casual no-cheese, then of course not. I'm gonna play some goofy fun stuff.

And no changes right before a match, for sure. Unless they tailored hard or brought something I literally can't deal with, then maybe I'd ask "Oh hey I see you have 700 knights, mind if I swap in a thing for another thing real fast so I have a chance against them?" And I would allow this of my opponent.

If my friend says "Bring your best" then I'm doing so, which may not actually specifically tailor against his army, it might just be the rock to his scissors anyway.

My random thoughts.

Martel732 wrote:
You shouldn't even know you are playing Tau.

This.

When I was playing regularly, I took my list to the club and then found an opponent. This was sometimes problematic because I'd have to try and account for the range of abilities as well as factions I'd face, but I'd rather do that than be the guy who selected from a range of pre prepared lists once he knew who he'd be fighting, or the guy who just relentlessly played WS spam and WK despite many requests to tone it down.

If you want to characterise 40K as any sort of game of skill, then surely a goodly part of that skill lies in designing a list that has elements to counter as many things as possible and then employing them efficiently in game? Not just spamming whatever is optimal to give your opponent a hard time?

This has long been my issue with IK, the decent thing is to let your opponent know if you're fielding an IK list, it is, after all, a unique faction which differs from pretty much any other list any other army can deploy, but how can one reasonably expect someone to spend any points on anti infantry if they know it'll be useless? But how can you get a fair game if your opponent brings nothing but stuff to kill AV? At least with the stronger factions - I'm not sure Orks could handle IK all that well right now even with advance notice.

Like with most things, there's differing levels to it.

For example, if you're playing a pick-up-game, and your opponent says he has grey knights or tau, guess what. He's going to have multiple dreadknights / riptides. it's just going to happen.

Knowing your armies strengths and weaknesses and how they play against other army's strengths and weaknesses is how to play the game. So, bringing units that are generally effective against a particular faction is perfectly reasonable.

For example: If I play a game, and my opponent says "I play tau", the first thing I cross off my army list ideas is big blobs of orks. Because that's a game I'll lose right after deployment, because footslogging orks have zero chance against tau gunlines.

It's possible to take this too far, say, with bringing multiple drop pod dev centurions v. a tau player you know is using multiple riptides, but generally speaking, you need to bring the right tools for the right job.

I’m a big proponent of the TAC list. You build one list to take on whatever happens to show up across the table. The only tailoring is a general meta-awareness.

If you are building a list for a specific foe/game, there is probably going to be at least a little tailoring. You know he’s bringing Tau, he knows you have Marines. Now, you don’t know exactly what the other guy is bringing, so there is still a lot of uncertainty/flex in the armies. This is probably acceptable, and probably a little unavoidable in scheduled games.

The worst kind of tailoring is when you know exactly what the other guy is going to bring, and build a hard counter list. In the RPS world of 40k, this is not particularly fun or sportsmanlike.

While we will often view list tailoring in the last light, it can be used as a force for good as well. My TAC generalist will wipe the floor vs. some new player’s random assortment army. If I know I’m going to be playing someone new, I list tailor. Not to win, but to have a fun game. I’ll take sup-par units, fluffy things, and make sure he’s got some things he can kill. Is it tailoring? Yup. But bad? I don’t think so.

OTHER: There's a lot of sides to this, and each side has a different answer.

#1 - You're preparing a game against each other, and you each know the army the other is taking, as part of a game that's been laid down as a challenge. I'd say hell yes, list tailoring is not just accepted, but expected. Against newbies you might actually "list-tailor" to reduce the effectiveness of your stuff.

#2 - You're preparing a game against each other, and you each know the army the other is taking, as part of a narrative game. I'd say yes, within the confines of the narrative. If you're been teleported to a daemon world, you should not take Drop Pods, since there's no Space Marine ship in orbit... even if that'd be the "best" thing to take.

#3 - You're preparing for a competitive tournament, and you have a sense of the local meta, and can gain an advantage if you accurately predict it. Yes, definitely tailor. This is a tournament after all. An exception to this would be tourney-practice. You won't get to tailor your list after you submit it, so if anything you should allow an opponent to tailor a list to be the thing you fear facing against most, just for practice.

#4 - You're preparing for a casual tournament aimed at relaxed games or introducing newer players to tournaments. No, don't list tailor. Make something that's going to be interesting and shows off something about your army and yourself.

#5 - You're preparing for a pick-up game at a local game night, whether competitive or not. No, don't list tailor. You should have a list ready to play with, and you're committed to that. Unless someone else says they'd like to have a different game rather than the standard pick-up, in which case, check above.

So do some of you only bring one list when headed to your flgs? I usually bring my full Necron army and as many SM figures as I can, then see who is at the shop that day, find someone who wants to play, and ask them what army they're bringing and what point value we're playing.

 EnTyme wrote:
So do some of you only bring one list when headed to your flgs? I usually bring my full Necron army and as many SM figures as I can, then see who is at the shop that day, find someone who wants to play, and ask them what army they're bringing and what point value we're playing.

I usually bring a few lists prepared at different points levels if I'm just heading in. I tell my opponent what kind of list I have. Ball's in their court now - do they want to play the kind of list I've brought? If their list is much more powerful, they'll often let me beef up my list after that.

I usually brought a 1500 and an 1850 list. Only of one army, I couldn't transport all my guard and all my wolves. That'd be hell.

The only list tailoring I've ever done is tailoring to the mission in a tournament setting.

I've never tailored to an opponents army.

 EnTyme wrote:
So do some of you only bring one list when headed to your flgs? I usually bring my full Necron army and as many SM figures as I can, then see who is at the shop that day, find someone who wants to play, and ask them what army they're bringing and what point value we're playing.

It’s impractical for me to drag everything up to the store. I’ve got 10k+ worth of Ultras on the shelf. At this point, I don’t have enough foam to drag them all up.

So unless I’ve got a fixed game set, I bring a number of lists, but just the minis needed to field them. Often in modular chunks. So a 1,000 point base list, with a 250 and a 500 point add-on. If I have space in my case when packing, I’ll sometimes toss in an extra unit or two if there is room, just in case someone wants to play at an odd level.

But once I head out the door, my lists are fixed. Barring odd game requests once I’m there, then I’ll cob something together with what’s on hand.

List tailoring is okay in competitive settings (like in competitive tournaments or when playing friendly games against people you know will bring tailored, competitive lists also)
Outside of that it just isn't much fun. Limited list tailoring for when you make a list adapted to the local meta or to the army (but not the specific list) your opponent has is still okay in my opinion as long as the opponent has the opportunity to do the same.

I feel between friends list-tailoring is often not only accepted but almost set in stone. My friends know my armies, and I know theirs. So they tailor lists to beat me. I in turn either do things completely unexpected so their tailors are useless, or I just counter tailor against their list.

That being said I would never list tailor against someone new other than to weaken my army, and I never list tailor 5 minutes before hand. As for me and my friends, once we show up the lists we have are what we play, no changing.

Then we take what we see, go home and try to build a new better cheesier army that only will ever be effective against each other.

It is not easy to "forget" what your opponent has if he is a friend that you have played many times, so more than likely you will be thinking about that when you build a list anyway. I expect them to think of my armies too. If both of you know what each other has it is OK in my book as it will lead to a good game usually. However I also like to play opponents with new lists or armies and will pick from some TAC lists I keep saved for that occasion as it would suck if I tailored right after learning their list. I also have played in leagues that hid armies and lists and locked lists in at every point value and I feel that is a good way to run a league. Tournaments will make you tailor to meta, of you don't you will probably not win so I am OK with it.

Does it count as list tailoring that we are playing more of scenarios with mutually agreed lists that make sense for fluff of armies and scenario?

That's more of a scenario. Scenarios by default are preset.

List tailoring is wrong
Optimizing units is wrong
Trying to win is wrong
Playing to objectives is wrong
Having a strategy is wrong
Using a strong model is wrong
Rolling a Six is wrong
Playing a good army is wrong

How would you like your self-served guilt today?

Just forfeit right after you've both looked have admired your army and your paint job on your models, don't even wait until after deployment your opponent might think you are being a troll. Your opponent will be much happier knowing that you are both succeeding at the hobby and that he had an easy win tonight.

Meta Tailoring for a Tourny is fine.

its good for shifting lists which get super boring when its the same 3 list over and over again

Tailoring based off a narrative campaign where its explicitly a bonus you earn is ok. like say within this campaign you have access to a coms relay. you get to see the enemy list first then change X or y or whatever. at any other point its pretty lame.

Otherwise any other form of list tailoring is what people in the industry call a "Dick move"

How about coming up with several lists for potential army types to go against, like Biker gangs or excesses of MC, striving to be prepared for any situation?
Just pull out the list you need when you see what your opponent has?

 Buddingsquaw wrote:
How about coming up with several lists for potential army types to go against, like Biker gangs or excesses of MC, striving to be prepared for any situation?
Just pull out the list you need when you see what your opponent has?

What if he also has multiple lists. who gets to list tailor who?

Thats still a dick move.

Wonder how "sidedeck" idea from CCG's like MTG would work?

1850 armies. Have 1500 pts as "locked" and allow say 3 350 pts lists of which you choose one(probably in secret seeing only the locked part of opponents army. That or contents of sidedecks would be visible).

Would allow some coping against rock paper and scissor. You up against 5 knights? You take side deck that gives you more heavy armour busting force etc.

tneva82 wrote:
Wonder how "sidedeck" idea from CCG's like MTG would work?

1850 armies. Have 1500 pts as "locked" and allow say 3 350 pts lists of which you choose one(probably in secret seeing only the locked part of opponents army. That or contents of sidedecks would be visible).

Would allow some coping against rock paper and scissor. You up against 5 knights? You take side deck that gives you more heavy armour busting force etc.

That's fine, as it's equal for both sides AND a known quantity in building the 1500 pts.

 Buddingsquaw wrote:
How about coming up with several lists for potential army types to go against, like Biker gangs or excesses of MC, striving to be prepared for any situation?
Just pull out the list you need when you see what your opponent has?

This is an example of the worst of TFG behavior. "You didn't bring melta or lances? 2 land raiders it is!"

In an ideal setting, in a pick up game, you and your opponent agree to points and type of game (fluffy/competitive/in between), set up the table, each slap down a pre-created list, and then get your models out.

At a tournament, you only have one list so you should bring your best.

If playing a buddy as part of a fun game or a campaign you're in, it's rather unavoidable to list tailor to some degree. However, both sides can do it. Game on.

Martel732 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Wonder how "sidedeck" idea from CCG's like MTG would work?

1850 armies. Have 1500 pts as "locked" and allow say 3 350 pts lists of which you choose one(probably in secret seeing only the locked part of opponents army. That or contents of sidedecks would be visible).

Would allow some coping against rock paper and scissor. You up against 5 knights? You take side deck that gives you more heavy armour busting force etc.

That's fine, as it's equal for both sides AND a known quantity in building the 1500 pts.

Yeah just wondering how it would work in practice. For some reason or other don't recall ever seeing mention of anything like that in practice. Wonder why? People complain about rock, paper and scissor effect so something that might migate it should be good?

Albeit does mean more figures to lug around...

I arrange games weeks in advance knowing who we will be playing and PROBABLY what army they will be bringing. I bring an army suited to face what I expect. The only kind of tailoring I disagree with is once you've seen your oppoents army - you change out units to counter it. Like If you bring a flyer they ad an AA unit - or if you are a parking lot they throw in 15 melta guns...I mean people like that are just scum.