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A race of eldritch mind-controlling aliens. That don't use or serve the warp, please.

Oh, and black dewds. And wimminz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A race of battle-suit wearing squid-aliens. They don't have a centralised brain, but are like a hyper-evolved cephalopod, what with a lack of emotions, and limbs that act of their own accord. Just something that is far removed from humans.

Troy wrote:

Using female mini heads on your IG should not be an issue.

Can be in a GW. There used to be a 25% rule - your minis can have up to 25% non-gw bitz. Some managers seem to have been told to enact a eugenics programme on bitz swappers.

Bewbs and a handy-j will do for some of them.

Draw me like one of your titanicus girls!

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
If the guard doesn't carry their supplies, who does? Someone has to carry all the rations and tents etc. Some wounds can't be healed by plot device #365, unless that morphine can grow back an arm.

It does in CoD, iirc. Why not here?

 Pouncey wrote:
They probably have the combat strength just in Sororitas alone to control the entire Imperium any time they want to, to say nothing of the non-Sororitas squads of zealots that would be raised in such a war! They probably have the numbers to even take on the ENTIRE Imperial Guard in an Imperium-wide war and WIN!

The IG has trillions of soldiers, does it not? They will outnumber the SoB by quite an amount.

Does "all Imperial Citizens" include the traitors, heretics, xenotech-lovers, space marine recruit potentials and the garrison at the Sol system?

If not, you may have issues.

 Pouncey wrote:

It's unacceptable because in the lore, Imperial Guard are not limited to having their women be Commissars, rocketeers, and grenade launcher wielders. And Eldar are unacceptable because female Eldar are not limited to being Banshees and a small portion of Guardians.

It's unacceptable because the lore says these armies have lots of women, that those women look different from men, and yet the models are almost all male.

Your argument does not work. GW cares for the fluff about as much as Martel, and seems to think that 40k needs to be a sausagefest to be even remotely marketable.

That is all that matters to the 40k productline.

 Desubot wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
And some who sexually identify as attack helicopters (they should count as a fast attack choice instead of troops in order to avoid hurting their feelings and rights)

Down with the cisnormativity in 40k!

Hear Hear

Where's my Antisexual Walnut class for Deathwatch?

We need a identity pride parade to storm Nottingham!

Looks green from here. Note the statistically unlikely yellow hair.

 Pouncey wrote:

Though, have we actually reached a time when people are unwilling to recognize that the original lore for a faction even existed before it got retconned?

Given that GW sets the precedent on these things, and that they do not care about the lore whatsoever, probably.

Don't worry. GW said there us no cannon.

Calgar is a daemon worshoppinng heretic who pays for his victories in the lives of humans.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Don't worry. GW said there us no cannon.

Calgar is a daemon worshoppinng heretic who pays for his victories in the lives of humans.

So my scaly/furry Sisters of Battle are a go then? : D

Have at it!

 Pouncey wrote:

Every time the complaints about forced diversity ruining everything came up, it was because a nationality was asked about where the predominant population isn't white.

From this, I deduced that the complaints about diversity are not actually complaints about diversity. If they WERE complaints about diversity, they would equally target the Canadian and other nationalities where the character is likely to be white. So the only possible option, is that complaints about diversity, are really just saying that they don't want non-white people in the game.

So I decided to casually post in one of the threads receiving complaints about forced diversity, without actually quoting anyone so that my reply would apply to everyone equally, very calmly and politely, about how I'd never seen the suggestions for a Canadian hero receive this many complaints.

And then the cries of "Forced diversity!" stopped. Almost immediately.

Because it's not forced diversity they hate. It's that they want to oppose specifically non-white characters being put into the game.

Ultimately, forcing people to confront themselves with the fact they're disguising their own racism behind the more noble goal of protecting artistic freedom is enough to get most of them to stop. At least for a while.

I take it this is on an english-speaking forum, yes?

It may not be about ethnicity. It's far more likely that they are against (at least subconsciously) having to deal with new and different cultures. The English speaking world takes Australia, Canada, the UK, the USA and related others. These are places of a white majority, yes, but they are also of a notably similar culture, linked by the same language, making them feel familiar.

Compare this to, say, anything from the middle-east, obscure eastern-European countries and Russia. Not the same language, unfamiliar cultures.

Women do have greater endurance over long distances and timeframes compared to men. Men have a greater short-term strength and speed.

However, when we are talking about capabilities in this way, we are referring to their maximum potential. There is significant crossover. Sure, a woman may have to work harder than a man to acquire a certain level of strength, but both can at some point carry X kg of kit into the field, both have the mental capacity to use said equipment, and both will bleed just the same when shot.

This is why there are females in the army who aren't just constantly overshadowed by men in their capacity (just when it comes to recognition and promotions).

 Melissia wrote:
Are we really getting in to this argument again, about the supposed differences between generic man and generic woman in fiction, as imagined by various popular culture versions of statistics?

We've had it several times in this thread already. The end point is that Men and Women are not totally different. We have IRL instances of women beating men at feats of strength, and we have instances of men beating women at feats of endurance. It is just not as simple as "Man has Strength 4, Woman has Strength 3".

 Pouncey wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Are we really getting in to this argument again, about the supposed differences between generic man and generic woman in fiction, as imagined by various popular culture versions of statistics?

We've had it several times in this thread already. The end point is that Men and Women are not totally different. We have IRL instances of women beating men at feats of strength, and we have instances of men beating women at feats of endurance. It is just not as simple as "Man has Strength 4, Woman has Strength 3".

Militarum Tempestus, highly elite trained military men, are Strength 3.

Sisters of Battle, highly elite trained religious military women (whose power armor doesn't increase their strength) are also Strength 3.

Death-Cult Assasins, wacko melee assassins whose lore I haven't looked into but all the models are women so I've always assumed they're always women, are Strength 4.

Space Marines, who we should all be familiar with, are Strength 4.

Eldar Banshees are Strength 3.

Ork Boys are Strength 3.

So we have, among just those units, men paralling women, men beating women, women beating men, women beating women, and men beating men, and both women and men beating AND paralleling two different types of melee-oriented Xenos.

So apparently, yes, it does in fact matter what your personal characteristics are, more so than your gender in terms of strength in the Warhammer 40k game. Your gender seems to be practically irrelevant compared to which unit you actually are in the equation.

My comparison was to highlight the lack of logic behind the statement "men are stronger", rather than to put it into 40k statlines.
And yes, the statlines have little to do with the fluff. We have fluff guardsmen of varying strengths and accuracies, and passages in which SM punch holes in what would on the TT be an Av14 building.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:


You can't just keep using the argument "Well, I have no proof, but the imperium has like 6 gorjillian people! That's a lot, right? Some of the girls gotta be ripped!"

SB, do you have any concept of statistical odds?

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:


You can't just keep using the argument "Well, I have no proof, but the imperium has like 6 gorjillian people! That's a lot, right? Some of the girls gotta be ripped!"

SB, do you have any concept of statistical odds?

I do, but statistical odds can't defy science and make women stronger than men.

Let's be scientific. Are there IRL women who are stronger than IRL men?

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:


You can't just keep using the argument "Well, I have no proof, but the imperium has like 6 gorjillian people! That's a lot, right? Some of the girls gotta be ripped!"

SB, do you have any concept of statistical odds?

I do, but statistical odds can't defy science and make women stronger than men.

Let's be scientific. Are there IRL women who are stronger than IRL men?

Yes, but those men are below average and those women are above average.

Alright, let's say that's true. And for the sake of the argument, let's bias the numbers I will use in favour of your side.

GIven that:

>The top 1% of women's physicality is above average
>The top 1% of women IRL do stuff like the Olympics
>The women's Olympics consists of feats of strength, speed and endurance beyond that of the average man

We can ascertain that there are a number of women who fit the description of "better than the average man". In our example, 1% of women are this.
Given that in the Imperium, a selection pool of 50 million candidates is to be happily considered a sup-par quantity, we can reasonably use this as a method of determining a lower-end estimate of the quantity of women in the IG.
Current world statistics hold that just under 50% of humans are female. Let's say that the recruitment pool holds 40% women.

This leaves us with 20 million women in a recruitment pool. Take the top 1% of women. This gives us 200,000 women.

From one world's low-count recruitment pool, we are getting at least 200,000 women. Now realise that there are hundreds, if not thousands of worlds that can do this too.

200,000 multiplied by a reasonable world-count of 200 gives us 40,000,000 women in the Imperial Guard.

Or, to put it another way, more women than IG models in player's collections. If every single guard model owned by IG players was female, it would be well within the fluff for that quantity of women to be fielded.

Does this argument make sense to you?

 Azreal13 wrote:
So, you're happy to say this..

 Pouncey wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Are there male banshees? is that a thing? is it a choice they can actually make?

(my eldar lore is pretty lacking)

I have heard that they are uncommon compared to females but do still exist in enough numbers their miniatures should exist.

Despite just yesterday I posted this

Banshees are almost exclusively female, a male one would be a notable rarity,

in a direct response to one of your posts, which is supported by this..

40K Lexicanum wrote:Unique to the Howling Banshees is the fact that they are almost always female, for the banshee of legend is itself a female spirit

You're going to keep insisting that somehow male Banshees need to be included?

The CWE codex has it that male banshees take on a female personality while serving as one. They'd probably just take the boob plate. I mean, it's hardly pressing against anything.

pm713 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
So, you're happy to say this..

 Pouncey wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Are there male banshees? is that a thing? is it a choice they can actually make?

(my eldar lore is pretty lacking)

I have heard that they are uncommon compared to females but do still exist in enough numbers their miniatures should exist.

Despite just yesterday I posted this

Banshees are almost exclusively female, a male one would be a notable rarity,

in a direct response to one of your posts, which is supported by this..

40K Lexicanum wrote:Unique to the Howling Banshees is the fact that they are almost always female, for the banshee of legend is itself a female spirit

You're going to keep insisting that somehow male Banshees need to be included?

The CWE codex has it that male banshees take on a female personality while serving as one. They'd probably just take the boob plate. I mean, it's hardly pressing against anything.

Where does it say that?

Had a skim through the codex again and either I can't find it or I'm misattributing sources again.

Pheh.

Perhas the real reason that there are no female space marines is because 40k is the medieval era IN SPAAACE. The Imperium is roman catholicism IN SPAAACE, Marines are Monks/Crusaders IN SPAAACE, SoB are Nuns IN SPAAACE and everything got dialled up to 11, stats were set to over 9000, everything is Gothic and GrimDank and there is only war.

That is why there are no female marines. It's just not thematic gor the IOM to be unbiased towatds gender.

 Gen.Steiner wrote:

Yodhrin wrote:So yeah, sure, diversity is good because people like to see themselves reflected in the stories and art they consume, so including more "unremarkable" female and recognisably non-white European male models will make the hobby more attractive to women and non-white European males, but grumbling about it seems silly considering we're not even talking about it just not costing you anything; having more variety is an unqualified positive for everybody whether it's because they feel more accepted in their chosen hobby, because it aligns with your ethics, or just because it gives you more cool and interesting models to build and paint and create stories with. Literally nobody loses, so there's no reason not to support the idea.

THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING!

Nobody loses!

Keep Space Marines male, Sisters of Battle female, and everyone else gets a mix of genders - and EVERY human faction should have a wider variance of facial features.

Except Orkz.

There is no gender, and only one ethnicity. Green. Coz green iz best. Non green iz loozaz.

EDIT: Reading fail on my part. Missed the "human" bit.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Gen.Steiner wrote:

Yodhrin wrote:So yeah, sure, diversity is good because people like to see themselves reflected in the stories and art they consume, so including more "unremarkable" female and recognisably non-white European male models will make the hobby more attractive to women and non-white European males, but grumbling about it seems silly considering we're not even talking about it just not costing you anything; having more variety is an unqualified positive for everybody whether it's because they feel more accepted in their chosen hobby, because it aligns with your ethics, or just because it gives you more cool and interesting models to build and paint and create stories with. Literally nobody loses, so there's no reason not to support the idea.

THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING!

Nobody loses!

Keep Space Marines male, Sisters of Battle female, and everyone else gets a mix of genders - and EVERY human faction should have a wider variance of facial features.

Except Orkz.

There is no gender, and only one ethnicity. Green. Coz green iz best. Non green iz loozaz.

EDIT: Reading fail on my part. Missed the "human" bit.

Digganobz!!

Whot.

Do they drink too much and worship the fell god Fu'tbal?

Ima pretend they worship Fut'Bal.

It's not like I pay attention to reality anyway.

Now where's my .75 Cal armour penetrating, rocket propelled, high explosive grenade launcher?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Selym wrote:
40k is the medieval era IN SPAAACE. The Imperium is roman catholicism IN SPAAACE. Marines are Monks/Crusaders IN SPAAACE[…]That is why there are no female marines. It's just not thematic gor the IOM to be unbiased towatds gender.

Tau are medieval era? No.
Sebastian Thor brought the reform, it's Protestantism in Space now .
White Scars are monks/crusaders ? No.
All your comparison are approximations. None of them are absolute. The Imperium has a bunch of inspirations. Inspirations. But GW never meant it to be an accurate reproduction of anything. When SM chapter whatever has sources of inspiration that are pretty damn well compatible with female warriors, like say Space Wolves, then there is no reason they shouldn't include some. If it is not fitting for, say, Dark Angels, well, they can be an exception to the rule if you really, really want it.
Because deep down, the space marines are a BLANK CANVAS under which every chapter get some personality added over. A very boring blank canvas that just says “super-human warrior with likely some religious beliefs”. And it's intentional. It allows people great freedom when creating their own SM chapters. Your spiritual liege, for instance, are inspired by Roman legions and organizations. Black Tempars are indeed inspired by Crusaders, and Dark Angels by monks, but White Scars are inspired by the Mongol warriors, Blood Angels are inspired by vampires and Italian artists of the Renaissance, …
Let's make that blank canvas a little more open, a little more free.

Tau are representative of the emergence of freethought and progress. The IOM's response to them is the same as how humans in general used to treat such things. It's not absolute, but there are massive historical influences involved in 40k, directing the thematics and designs of things like Space Marines. And White Scars are Mongols.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Tau are representative of the emergence of freethought and progress.

Tau are not known for free-thought, rather for suspicion of thought control. And no, they are not medieval. The emergence of technological prowess is not a thematic element linked to the medieval period.
Also White Scars are not mongols. White Scars are inspired by Mongols. Which means they can be different from actual Mongols in any way GW wants them to.

Right, I'm not sure you read my post. Try again.

I'll even highlight some key points:

 Selym wrote:
Tau are representative of the emergence of freethought and progress. The IOM's response to them is the same as how humans in general used to treat such things. It's not absolute, but there are massive historical influences involved in 40k, directing the thematics and designs of things like Space Marines. And White Scars are Mongols.

To concur with Plumbumbarum, in the UK we have an organisation called the Cadet Corps. Teenagers can sign up to be a cadet to recieve a toned-down version of the military experience, with a focus on helping the local community and learning discipline.
Being militaristic, however, is is very boyish. There is lots of talk about guns and war machines, lots of crawling through mud, and you all get referred to as "lads" or "men", or get told to "man up".

As expected, more boys join than girls. Is this because everyrhing is male-oriented? I do not think so. My Air Cadet Squadron (1166) had a near 50/50 split of male and female at one time. Some girls just liked the nature of being a Cadet. It did not matter that the army is usually considered a schlong-fest, they just enjoyed running, jumping, climbing trees...

It may well be that women in general just do not like war games. Just like how men in general aren't into high fashion (and you never see campaigns to masculinise the fashion industry)

If you mean the guy in that movie, he is not the general male population incarnate.

Ugh.