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https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2016/9/2/go-rogue/

The U Wing being large based is a bit of a surprise to me, but then I've not been paying too close attention to the movie to avoid spoilers.

New double cards, and, I think, the first pilot whose ability is conditional on equipping an upgrade.

Well, first pilot whose ability requires a SPECIFIC upgrade. There are plenty that involve secondary weapons and therefore don't do anything without one.

These do seem to be a continuation of the recent trend of using free or very cheap titles to essentially add more text space to a ship.

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My thoughts:

Odd that the U-wing is a large ship. It looks smaller than a K-wing. Cassian Andor looks like yet another overpriced support ship which we will never use. Pivot wing could be interesting. Depending on the cost of the generic, and its dial, this thing could best be viewed as a better X-wing (Same firepower, same Agility with title, more hull more shields, and crew and system upgrades as opposed to the integrated astromech slot).

Jyn Erso looks like she could be a good way to pile focus on somebody. She will also work on her own ship, so if you put her on somebody who wants focus (such as Kannan [Pilot]) she could be valuable. At the very least, cheaper than Recon Specialist.

Cassian Andor looks like he will be insurance against you opponent doing something crazy. Want to know if your opponent is going to go straight-1 or K-turn? Cassian is your man. Plan for one maneuver, then guess the other one. Of course, if you don't run into these situations he's just an overpriced intelligence Agent. Both he and Jyn look like they will have their uses, but I am not super optimistic about them.

TIE Striker: I really can't say much until we see the dial/cost, other than that this looks like it's a ship that will live or die there.

Edited for Amazing spelling

Missed a card, from the image gallery but not linked on the page:



That said, first impressions:

U-wing: not a bad starting point. Looks like ~21 points for the PS 2 generic, with a 3/2/4/4 stat line. Compare to 3/1/5/5 for the shuttle (great jousting value if you can keep it in the fight) and it looks pretty solid as long as the dial isn't terrible. You trade 2 HP for an extra green die, which is pretty reasonable IMO. If it gets white 90* turns I think it will do alright. And the upgrade bar is pretty good. Double crew and advanced sensors/FCS (and an EPT on at least one unique) gives a lot of options, and the torpedo slot is just a bonus. The dial is going to be the deciding factor between "support ship that can fight" and "combat ship worth taking on its own merits", but either way I think it has a shot at seeing some use.

Title: obviously a mandatory "this is only an upgrade card because we ran out of text space" thing. Either side is useful, +1 agility is probably going to be the default but a 0-speed "k-turn" has its potential. Giving away the plan and taking a turn of low-agility fire before you can do it kind of hurts, but a lot of the time when you're doing a k-turn it's very predictable anyway.

Cassian Andor (pilot): going to have to disagree with Crazy_Carnifex and say that he's actually pretty good. Removing stress is a huge deal with slicer tools in the metagame. Your PTL ace is now completely immune to slicer tools as long as the support ship is alive, and as a nice bonus they have their full dial available. I think he's going to be almost mandatory if you want to play Corran/Jake/etc, so it's a good thing the ship itself seems to be at least mid-tier in power. The main drawback is PS 6 (the highest for the ship at all, in an interesting two-ship trend), you're in the awkward middle ground where you pay points for extra PS that doesn't mean much when most of the game is PS 1-3 or PS 8+.

Jyn "totally not Jan Ors" Erso: way too situational. Unless your opponent brings a swarm she's effectively just a way to pass a focus token, and how often do you have non-turret support ships that don't care about keeping their own focus tokens? Don't be fooled by wishful thinking about the best-case scenarios where you get all three tokens, most of the time you'll be thankful you got one at all.

Cassian Andor (crew): really, really good. Remember how intelligence agent is a powerful upgrade? Cassian gives you the same effect, but for +1 point you get the possibility of changing your dial in response. I can't even count the number of times I've been in a situation where a key enemy ship had two good options that were far enough apart that I could only attempt to counter one of them. Now you prepare for the most likely one, guess the "oh god if they do this I'm screwed" move, and if they were going to do it you change your dial to counter it. This is especially effective against PTL aces, where the relevant maneuvering options usually come down to "90* turn in the obvious direction" or "4-5 straight to run away and try to set up a better shot later".

TIE Striker: ugh, this is a bad starting point. It's going to be a really cheap 3-dice gun, but that's about it. With only 2 agility and 4 HP (all hull!) this thing is even more fragile than a TIE bomber, a ship that's generally considered way too easy to kill to see any competitive use. Unless the uniques have some game-changing pilot abilities this is going to be a ship that doesn't encourage investing points into it, especially with Omega Leader at 26 points. On the other hand if the PS 1 generic is 16 points instead of 17 you can fit six of them into a 100 point list, and that's a lot of 3-dice guns. The best use is probably going to be supporting aces, adding some efficient red dice in a list where the striker's poor durability doesn't matter because everyone is busy trying to deal with the ace(s).

Adaptive Ailerons: for the first time it's a zero-point title that isn't an automatic choice. Note the bold "must" in there, once you equip the title you're forced to do the extra maneuver every turn even if it hurts you. And you have to decide and commit to it before the game begins, and before you even know who you're playing against. On the other hand it's a pretty powerful ability so the times you get a lot out of it should more than offset the occasional turn where you really wish you could stay where you are.

Duchess: garbage. Her pilot ability is just so absurdly situational. Most of the time, especially on a high-PS ship, extra maneuvering "actions" are worth their weight in gold. And instead of powerful ace abilities like "get an extra focus every turn" and "always attack at range 1" you get the option to not use your powerful upgrade. Yeah, sure, there will be a situation where you don't want to do the maneuver, but that's far too rare to justify wasting a pilot ability on it. IMO the only thing Duchess has going for her is natural PS 8. You'll take her if you're desperate for PS 8, otherwise you might as well forget that she exists.


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 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Odd that the U-wing is a large ship. It looks smaller than a K-wing.

I think it makes sense. Based on the movie previews it's clearly a larger transport ship that carries a bunch of passengers, not a small fighter. The k-wing and ARC-170 are a bit weird visually on the small bases, but in theme they're still fighters and FFG has been very consistent in keeping fighters on small bases and saving the large bases for the transport types. And it fits nicely with the rumor that supposedly the HWK was going to be a large-base ship to match the shuttle until the ridiculously small official scale numbers for the HWK forced FFG to put it on a small base.

 Azreal13 wrote:
New double cards, and, I think, the first pilot whose ability is conditional on equipping an upgrade.

First to explicitly mention an upgrade, though there have been quite a few that have been conditional in all but name. Soontir Fel's pilot ability might as well say "if you have PTL equipped assign yourself an additional focus token every turn".

Nice catch on the pivot wing. Nice that you can flip it after a maneuver for both sides. I was a bit worried that there would be different conditions to flip the two sides. It's a little awkward to use, I agree, but a 0K is extremely powerful. Could also lead to fun mind games on turns where you don't think you are going to get shot, so flip it to the landing side to bluff the 0-speed. Then, execute another maneuver instead.

I could see TIE-Strikers being successful if they cost 16 points. We know that they won't cost more than 18 for the PS1 based on the fact each pilot should be cheaper than the one before it. At 15-16 pt, they should be viable alternatives to Crack Squadron Pilots, and their title will give them weird blocking abilities.

U-wing: not a bad starting point. Looks like ~21 points for the PS 2 generic, with a 3/2/4/4 stat line. Compare to 3/1/5/5 for the shuttle (great jousting value if you can keep it in the fight) and it looks pretty solid as long as the dial isn't terrible. You trade 2 HP for an extra green die, which is pretty reasonable IMO. If it gets white 90* turns I think it will do alright. And the upgrade bar is pretty good. Double crew and advanced sensors/FCS (and an EPT on at least one unique) gives a lot of options, and the torpedo slot is just a bonus. The dial is going to be the deciding factor between "support ship that can fight" and "combat ship worth taking on its own merits", but either way I think it has a shot at seeing some use.

More than anything, it reminds me of a B-wing/E or ARC-170. Same hit points, same firepower, but with an extra agility (most of the time) instead to make up for the large base.

It'll depend how cheap the cheapest generic is, but if it gives you room to pack in stuff like Fire Control, Tactician, and Cassian Andor and still get four in a squad it could be pretty damn nasty.

I'd agree that Cassian Andor's pilot ability is good. Wingman is a nice ability - it's just that people are rarely willing to take a ship just to carry it. Having used Epsilon Leader a lot recently I can attest that being able to bin off stress with no strings attached is amazing.



Jyn....disregarding any other use, it's an action-free focus token whenever you have a target within your arc of fire. That strikes me as not bad. I'm not convinced it's worth 2 points (I'd definitely pay 1 for it, though!) but the ability to get more than one and the ability to pass it to someone else as needed makes it worth it. Agility 2 is enough green dice to appreciate (if not precisely need) a free focus token, and it gives you a focus token on a landing/180 flip (assuming you're doing so to get a shot!), which at least puts it on a par (for its own effect, anyway) with the Targeting Astromech. EDIT: Forget that - for some reason didn't see she required an action. She's essentially a conditional recon specialist, then.



Based on Carnor Jax (26 points vs 18 points), Tomax Bren (24 points vs 16 points), and Howlrunner (18 points vs 12 points), we're probably looking at the basic Striker being 16 points, maybe 15.

I'd agree it's a bit....erm...., but for the price of a named TIE or Z-95, it's not going to be amazing. It's essentially Mauler Mithel, Backstabber or Scourge with their abilities 'always on', and trading 1 agility for 1 hull.
With a white (not green) hard 2, I'm not expecting a PTL-bait dial.

The main use that springs to mind is if the black squadron pilot is cheap enough to justify loading out with Crack Shot - 5 3-dice attacks with Crack Shot behind them could be a nice alternative to 6 with howlrunner (since you've got a bit more staying power once they're expended and Cive has inevitably taken a laser bolt to the face).

In promotional materials and the Lego model the Striker's "wing" tilt up and down.

I think we will see our first articulated small base ship.

The TIE only card looks interesting: Lightened Frame? Lightweight Frame? something like that?

"When defending something something defence dice something something attack dice, roll 1 additional

you cannot something something your something something "

I suspect an extra green dice if you would have less green dice than the number of red dice, at a cost of no modifiers to the dice.

I dunno. I'm assuming it's a modification (because you'd expect one title and one mod, so the ship it's with can use both). A free green dice is nice, especially on 1-2 agility ships, but no dice modifiers is a bugger. I can only see it being useful if it's a damn cheap (even free) modification for generics (who don't have any defence modifiers if they want to modify their attack roll).

The problem is that on other low agility TIE ships (like the TIE bomber or punisher) you'll generally want guidance chips. Agility 3 TIE ships won't get it to trigger too often and really, really want their dice modifiers.
Might be nice on a TIE shuttle? You lose the slots to take long range scanners, and are often using your action to hand focus to other people, after all.



Be interesting to see the Striker's dial. If it lacks slow moves (as a lot of TIEs do), you might get a fighter with a huge effective minimum speed - if there's no speed 1 straight/bank move, you're doing a speed 1 straight plus your base plus a speed 2 move for a minimum of speed 4..

....I dread to think what you can manage with Adaptive Ailerons plus Engine Upgrade.....if it has a speed 5 straight (or even just a speed 3 turn!) that's a bloody long way.
In fact, Adaptive Ailerons (straight 1), Maneuver (straight 5), Engine Upgrade (bank 1), Push The Limit (barrel roll) gives you a range 3 shot on the opponent's deployment zone in turn 1!

Adaptive Ailerons seems neat.

I don't know if I am the only one who thinks that these ships look funny. They are not all that cool or pretty to me, which is oddly attractive... If the U-Wing were a small-base ship, I'd be running as many of the Ugly-Wings as I could.

 Peregrine wrote:
TIE Striker: ugh, this is a bad starting point. It's going to be a really cheap 3-dice gun, but that's about it. With only 2 agility and 4 HP (all hull!) this thing is even more fragile than a TIE bomber, a ship that's generally considered way too easy to kill to see any competitive use. Unless the uniques have some game-changing pilot abilities this is going to be a ship that doesn't encourage investing points into it, especially with Omega Leader at 26 points. On the other hand if the PS 1 generic is 16 points instead of 17 you can fit six of them into a 100 point list, and that's a lot of 3-dice guns. The best use is probably going to be supporting aces, adding some efficient red dice in a list where the striker's poor durability doesn't matter because everyone is busy trying to deal with the ace(s).

I think it's mainly the low attack that makes the Tie Bomber bad, coupled with the poor defence. The striker has decent attack, and it can evade. It strikes me as kind of a poor man's Interceptor, you have the 3 attack, some hull, and a pseudo PTL, all for quite cheap... probably "worth it" IMO. The interceptor is a pretty good ship, so my hunch is that this will be good too. It's a super cheap arc-dodger, that sacrifices agility... probably the best possible trade-off for an arc-dodger. I actually feel like we're gonna see this a lot at tournament level.

A lot will depend on the price of lightened frame. If it's affordable, then the striker is essentially an agility 3 fighter (probably).

Compare to the generic TIE interceptor (which sees virtually no use) - the Imperial Pilot compared to the Alpha Squadron Pilot has the same firepower, same agility (if it's an extra green dice), one more hull, and what's essentially a free boost per turn.

If you can pack 5 of them in a squad, or three in a ~60 point mini-swarm and still keep up with a boosting ace, they may be quite nasty.

I suspect (as with TIE fighters and Interceptors) that the mid-level generic will be a bit irrelevant unless there's a big price jump between the Black Squadron Pilot and Scarif - because assuming the BSP has an elite talent, the option of 3-dice attacks with crack shot at a reasonable price is somewhat scary.

 Smacks wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
TIE Striker: ugh, this is a bad starting point. It's going to be a really cheap 3-dice gun, but that's about it. With only 2 agility and 4 HP (all hull!) this thing is even more fragile than a TIE bomber, a ship that's generally considered way too easy to kill to see any competitive use. Unless the uniques have some game-changing pilot abilities this is going to be a ship that doesn't encourage investing points into it, especially with Omega Leader at 26 points. On the other hand if the PS 1 generic is 16 points instead of 17 you can fit six of them into a 100 point list, and that's a lot of 3-dice guns. The best use is probably going to be supporting aces, adding some efficient red dice in a list where the striker's poor durability doesn't matter because everyone is busy trying to deal with the ace(s).

I think it's mainly the low attack that makes the Tie Bomber bad, coupled with the poor defence. The striker has decent attack, and it can evade. It strikes me as kind of a poor man's Interceptor, you have the 3 attack, some hull, and a pseudo PTL, all for quite cheap... probably "worth it" IMO. The interceptor is a pretty good ship, so my hunch is that this will be good too. It's a super cheap arc-dodger, that sacrifices agility... probably the best possible trade-off for an arc-dodger. I actually feel like we're gonna see this a lot at tournament level.

Problem is, I don''t think that the Striker will be a good arc dodger. It's hard-2 is white, and arc dodgers generally need hard greens to function (For PTL Fun). Now, it could have a speed 1 or 3 turn, and because adaptive ailerons is automatic instead of an action it may not need PTL. Second problem is that we don't see any pilots who strongly suggest an arc-dodger roll. Duchess is the only one with PS greater than 6 (Meaning you can Vet Instinct/Adaptability for PS9+). However, her ability is not great, as it does not help her fight when she is using her actions to maneuver (as with Soontirs extra focus) or help her maneuver (Vaders double action, Asty's white Talon roll). The other pilots pilot skill is to low to reliable out-PS someone, meaning that even with good abilities they are too situational to be reliable (only really working against enemy generics).

Well, I hear my wallet screaming like the people of Alderaan before it blew it up, in absolute terror of how much that wave is now going to cost me in TIE Strikers alone. I hope that TIE only card is going to be 1 point or under so I can put it on my Defenders who normally burn all their tokens attacking, and see what silliness the TIE Striker can do.

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Problem is, I don''t think that the Striker will be a good arc dodger. It's hard-2 is white, and arc dodgers generally need hard greens to function (For PTL Fun). Now, it could have a speed 1 or 3 turn, and because adaptive ailerons is automatic instead of an action it may not need PTL. Second problem is that we don't see any pilots who strongly suggest an arc-dodger roll. Duchess is the only one with PS greater than 6 (Meaning you can Vet Instinct/Adaptability for PS9+). However, her ability is not great, as it does not help her fight when she is using her actions to maneuver (as with Soontirs extra focus) or help her maneuver (Vaders double action, Asty's white Talon roll). The other pilots pilot skill is to low to reliable out-PS someone, meaning that even with good abilities they are too situational to be reliable (only really working against enemy generics).

I don't think it needs PTL, adaptive ailerons will give it a free boost action every turn, and then it can roll without penalty to dodge in and out of arc. Duchess with Adaptability is only 23 points, for PS9, boost+roll actions every turn, and 4 attack at R1. So you're getting nearly all the same attacking and manoeuvring power of a PTL interceptor, for a fraction of the cost (not counting specific pilot abilities i.e. Fel's free focus).

Defensively, it might appear weaker, but it's actually about the same as an interceptor (before upgrades). A strength 3 turret, for example, would have an expected damage output of 0.896 hp per shot against a 2 defence Striker, and 0.673 hp per shot against a 3 defence interceptor. If you divide that damage into the respective hull values, you end up with an average of 4.46 shots to destroy a Striker, and 4.45 shots to destroy an Interceptor. Meaning that the Striker is (surprisingly) the more durable ship, out of the box.

Of course, pending Lightened Frame, the striker might not have the same scope for defensive upgrades that the interceptor has (notably stealth device), but for the amount of points you save, you should still be getting great value, and it's cheap enough that you aren't as obligated to sink points into insurance. For that reason I think the lower PS pilots might actually see some action. They should be cheap enough to squeeze into all kinds of squads, and they don't require any expensive upgrades like PTL or EU to be effective. So I suspect they might succeed where the lower tier interceptors and Tie advanced pilots fell apart.

Indeed. I get the impression that it's intended to be a ship where the generics, not the uniques, are the star of the show.

 Smacks wrote:
I think it's mainly the low attack that makes the Tie Bomber bad, coupled with the poor defence.

It's not just that the bomber is bad, it's that it's fragile. With only two green dice it doesn't dodge well, and with no shields to take crits on it gets crippled very easily. Now this thing has an evade action (that you rarely get to use because focus is just plain better with only one action per turn) but loses 1/3 of the bomber's HP. In real games this thing is easier to kill than a z-95!

It's a super cheap arc-dodger, that sacrifices agility... probably the best possible trade-off for an arc-dodger.

No, it's an absolutely terrible trade-off. Unless you're just crushing newbies every game there's no such thing as 100% arc dodging. You're going to land in arc and you're going to take shots. This is fine if you're Soontir Fel with 4-5 green dice, focus + evade tokens, autothrusters, and Palpatine. This is not fine if you have two green dice and a focus token (the point cost doesn't work for Palp aces). You'd better be buying something absolutely amazing with those extra 10-15 points over Fel/Inquisitor to justify going from "even if you can get me in arc you have a 0.000001% chance of damaging me" to "failure to arc-dodge every threat is death".


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 Smacks wrote:
I don't think it needs PTL, adaptive ailerons will give it a free boost action every turn, and then it can roll without penalty to dodge in and out of arc.

It needs PTL because being committed to a maneuvering action for one of your two actions per turn doesn't let you stack focus + evade for defense. There are inevitably going to be situations where it isn't possible to dodge every arc and you have to take fire. Good aces can stack up defensive abilities and survive (Fel with guaranteed immunity to damage, Corran with shield regen, etc). Bad "aces" take damage and die if they make a single mistake. PTL for focus + evade stacks is your only hope of surviving that situation with only two green dice, and you don't have the greens for PTL.

(not counting specific pilot abilities i.e. Fel's free focus)

And here's the problem. Nobody cares about PTL interceptors without specific pilot abilities. If you're talking about PTL interceptors then you're either talking about Soontir Fel or Carnor Jax, probably with Palpatine supporting them. So Fel is getting way better action economy and defense dice, while Jax has better dice and effectively better action economy thanks to shutting down enemy tokens. Duchess has none of that. You have a PS 9-10 ship with two actions per turn (one of which must be a boost) and nothing else.

Defensively, it might appear weaker, but it's actually about the same as an interceptor (before upgrades). A strength 3 turret, for example, would have an expected damage output of 0.896 hp per shot against a 2 defence Striker, and 0.673 hp per shot against a 3 defence interceptor. If you divide that damage into the respective hull values, you end up with an average of 4.46 shots to destroy a Striker, and 4.45 shots to destroy an Interceptor. Meaning that the Striker is (surprisingly) the more durable ship, out of the box.

And again, you're talking about generics that don't matter. A 3-dice turret has an expected damage output of 0.000000 against an interceptor. No amount of 3-dice shooting will ever kill an interceptor, short of "I just won the lottery" luck with the dice. And I'm really not sure where you're getting an expected damage output of 0.896 per shot against the striker, it doesn't match any combination of focus/no-focus I'm putting in. The actual average damage per shot should be significantly higher.

 Peregrine wrote:
It's not just that the bomber is bad, it's that it's fragile. With only two green dice it doesn't dodge well, and with no shields to take crits on it gets crippled very easily.

It is indeed fragile, but that wouldn't be the end of the world, if the ship were able to do some decent damage before it went down in flames. The problem with the bomber (and especially the Tie shuttle) is that the 2 attack dice are just pitiful, and barely contribute. The A-Wing and the pre-fix Tie Advanced had a similar problem, no one really wants to sink points into a ship that can't do decent damage. Contrast with the Interceptor that does 3 damage, and suddenly it's awesome and gets used all the time. Big difference.

 Peregrine wrote:

It's a super cheap arc-dodger, that sacrifices agility... probably the best possible trade-off for an arc-dodger.

No, it's an absolutely terrible trade-off.

If you are looking to strip down an interceptor and make it cheaper, then it is the best option, because it's really the only option. You can't drop the attack because then it would be too weak like the A-Wing and Tie Advanced. You can't ditch manoeuvrability, because then it wouldn't work at all. So they gave it less agility and more hull, which might shorten its life, but then it's a much cheaper ship, what do you expect? You keep comparing Duchess to Soontir Fel, but Fel is expensive, he's probably going to cost ~35 points, Duchess is 23 points. She's obviously not going to be as good, but that doesn't mean she's not good value. You can literally buy an additional ship with the points difference.

 Peregrine wrote:
It needs PTL because being committed to a maneuvering action for one of your two actions per turn doesn't let you stack focus + evade for defense.

A sacrifice someone might be perfectly willing to make, if it meant saving loads of points. Adaptive ailerons won't work with PTL because of the stress, so you're going to need an Engine Upgrade too. So now you're spending 7 points and two upgrade slots to get something which is only slightly better than the thing you were getting for free...

 Peregrine wrote:

(not counting specific pilot abilities i.e. Fel's free focus)

And here's the problem. Nobody cares about PTL interceptors without specific pilot abilities. If you're talking about PTL interceptors then you're either talking about Soontir Fel or Carnor Jax, probably with Palpatine supporting them. So Fel is getting way better action economy and defense dice, while Jax has better dice and effectively better action economy thanks to shutting down enemy tokens. Duchess has none of that. You have a PS 9-10 ship with two actions per turn (one of which must be a boost) and nothing else.

Nothing else except a butt load of free points. The most important quality in an Interceptor is really high PS, the fact that the two highest PS ships also have great abilities is almost incidental, if people were able to swap Jax's ability for PS10 instead, then they probably always would.

 Peregrine wrote:
And I'm really not sure where you're getting an expected damage output of 0.896 per shot against the striker.

I got it from the x-wing probability calculator, basic 3 dice versus 2 dice, gives an expected damage of 0.896484375.

Nothing else except a butt load of free points.

Quite a few, potentially; because you don't have the epic green dice modifiers allowed by stacking stealth & autothrusters plus focus plus evade, you probably won't get the mileage out of palpatine......and (assuming we've guessed right re the price) you can practically trade palpatine for another two strikers.

I dunno. We'll have to wait and see, but I suspect the Striker is intended to be somewhat akin to the Khiraxz - something you can field a swarm of five ships with three-dice attacks of.

If you can pack in 5 plus crack shot, and/or 5 plus lightened frame, they could be quite nasty.


I suspect we'll see the basic at 16 points. Firstly it matches Duchess' price (see logic above) but also it's essentially a TIE bomber minus two hull upgrades (3 points each) plus a bonus primary attack die (6 points, taking the TIE fighter-interceptor comparison), equally, it's a khiraxz minus a shield upgrade.

I'm not expecting great things from the dial; but the fact you've got a 'free boost' (the downside being that it's a compulsory boost!) will cover a lot of sins in the realm of speed and turning around. It's no white K-turn, TIE defender style, but an Adaptive Airelons turn to one side, followed by a hard turn to the same direction, can bring you about 135' in one turn without stress.

I rather suspect it won't have a green hard turn for the same reason.


Oh - plus, there's the possibility for a few ridicuplan options if you're prepared to put points into awesome but probably ultimately useless tricks (from the team that bought you the turn 1 proximity mine kill*) - since Adaptive Airelons is a maneuver, you can use it to trigger Lighting Reflexes. If you then follow that with a green maneuver on your dial, plus an engine upgrade if you really want to prat around, and you're into 'hooning about like a fruitbat on nitrous oxide' territory.

In real games this thing is easier to kill than a z-95!

Yup. It's a Z-95 which swaps a shield to a hull, in return for a cut price on getting an extra attack die. Until we see how much you're paying for Lightened Frame, it's fair to say it's probably the most fragile ship in the game.

Much like a TIE swarm, it's going to have to use numbers to deliver one hell of a punch on the opening pass. That's why the main thing I'm going to be interested to see is the price of the Black Squadron Pilot Striker - three attack dice with Crack Shot is possibly worth a closer inspection. Certainly, in a classic Crack Shot swarm, being able to swap out one or more TIE fighters for strikers (probably without Airelons to let them keep formation better) might add a lethal extra bit of punch without breaking the bank.




* not a good plan at all as it also requires stupid deployment by your opponent, but I've seen it work once. The victim's face was a picture and the whole thing was kind of priceless.

 Smacks wrote:
It is indeed fragile, but that wouldn't be the end of the world, if the ship were able to do some decent damage before it went down in flames. The problem with the bomber (and especially the Tie shuttle) is that the 2 attack dice are just pitiful, and barely contribute. The A-Wing and the pre-fix Tie Advanced had a similar problem, no one really wants to sink points into a ship that can't do decent damage. Contrast with the Interceptor that does 3 damage, and suddenly it's awesome and gets used all the time. Big difference.

But, again, I'm not talking about the ship as a whole (and in fact I even mentioned its potential as a glass cannon kind of ship). The comparison to the bomber is only in durability, nothing more.

If you are looking to strip down an interceptor and make it cheaper, then it is the best option, because it's really the only option.

But why are you doing this in the first place? Why, in a game with Omega Leader as a ridiculously powerful option at 26 points, are you so interested in trying to make a Fel-style ace at a cheaper price? A stripped-down interceptor "ace" isn't going to be able to do the things a proper interceptor can do, so just accept that the interceptor-style role costs 30-35 points and take something else if you can't afford that much.

You can literally buy an additional ship with the points difference.

You can buy an academy pilot with the points difference. Less than that, if you're comparing Duchess to the Inquisitor instead of Fel. I am not at all convinced that an academy pilot plus a mediocre "ace" is better than a top-tier ace.

A sacrifice someone might be perfectly willing to make, if it meant saving loads of points. Adaptive ailerons won't work with PTL because of the stress, so you're going to need an Engine Upgrade too. So now you're spending 7 points and two upgrade slots to get something which is only slightly better than the thing you were getting for free...

Well yes, that's kind of the point. PTL is not viable, which means you can't do the PTL-based token stacking that keeps aces alive.

The most important quality in an Interceptor is really high PS, the fact that the two highest PS ships also have great abilities is almost incidental, if people were able to swap Jax's ability for PS10 instead, then they probably always would.

Err, no, PS 10 is NOT the most important quality. There's a reason why nobody is taking VI Soontir Fel for PS 11, and why the Inquisitor at PS 8 is a default choice in a Palp aces list. The most important quality in an interceptor is action economy. You can deal with somewhat lower PS as long as you have a pile of defensive tokens and maneuvering actions.

I got it from the x-wing probability calculator, basic 3 dice versus 2 dice, gives an expected damage of 0.896484375.

Oh, I see, you're doing the complicated version instead of just comparing average values. But you're also presenting a really inaccurate version of the numbers because nobody is rolling unmodified dice in these situations.

A 3-dice turret with focus against Soontir Fel with focus + evade, stealth, autothrusters and Palpatine has literally zero chance of doing damage at range 2-3. At range 1 you get 0.006 average damage. IOW, if you get into range 1 and take your best shot you have less than a 1% chance of accomplishing anything.

A 3-dice turret with focus against Duchess with focus has an expected damage of 1.07, increasing to 1.77 at range 1. IOW, you will consistently hit even if Duchess goes all-in on defense instead of shooting back effectively.

See the difference?

But why are you doing this in the first place? Why, in a game with Omega Leader as a ridiculously powerful option at 26 points, are you so interested in trying to make a Fel-style ace at a cheaper price? A stripped-down interceptor "ace" isn't going to be able to do the things a proper interceptor can do, so just accept that the interceptor-style role costs 30-35 points and take something else if you can't afford that much.

I'm not sure you can. That's why I'm much more interested in the cheaper pilots; if this thing has a role it's not going to be Soontir Fel on a budget, it's going to be as a different role completely; maybe a hybrid of swarm ship and arc-dodger.

No ship can afford to be only one thing - the ones that are (like the basic X-wing) are usually the worst in the game.

~ The TIE fighter is a jouster that does a nice line in blocking and knife fighting in big swarms with Youngster, or as alpha strikes in smaller swarms with Howlrunner.

~ The Jumpmaster is a jouster that, again, does a nice line in blocking thanks to its turreted weapon, large base, barrel roll and forgiving dial.

~ The TIE interceptor is an arc-dodger whose second string is being able to rack up so many tokens that it can reliably evade 1-2 attacks per turn.

~ Ello Asty is in a heavy fighter that arc dodge thanks to a white Tallon roll but can afford to trade head-to-head shots with someone if needs be thanks to three shield tokens and integrated astromech.

The striker is going to be a decent arc-dodger, because it's going to be fast, has good positioning actions, and is cheap enough to afford a high PS pilot. But no amount of skill with the ship will avoid - for example - being shot at by a primary turret. If you have a shot, so do they - and unlike the TIE interceptor, there's no way you can get the four-green-dice-with-autothrusters defence roll to laugh at it.

So the striker is going down. Trying to play it purely as an arc dodger will fail; it needs a 'second string' of its own.

Cheapness allows numbers, and (assuming Black Squadron has an EPT) that means some of the tricks we associate with a TIE fighter swarm might apply.

A Striker won't make a good blocker - because a blocker often needs the ability to fly slow - a '1' straight, or a '1' turn and barrel roll - which Adaptive Ailerons will mess with.

It might make a good Crack Shot caddy, though. It's probably the cheapest thing in the game with a 3-dice attack, and if it also has the cheapest 3-dice attack with an EPT then that might be worth a look; if you can (for example) pack in 4 Black Squadron strikers plus Howlrunner and give them all Crack Shot, I suspect that's going to hit harder than 5 TIE fighters armed the same.

I dunno. I'm not saying it's great. But it has potential. I'm just not convinced this is a fighter where looking at the highest PS pilot is the right place to start.

I was walking down the neighborhood when I got approached by a piece of plastic. This piece of plastic asked for me to pass this on to you all.



It hurts the TIE Striker's feelings that everyone is being so mean to it before it has even had a chance to be caressed by the hands of a loving child.

#AToyStory #CelebrateShipIndividuality #NonFelLivesMatter

 Peregrine wrote:

 Smacks wrote:
It is indeed fragile, but that wouldn't be the end of the world, if the ship were able to do some decent damage before it went down in flames. The problem with the bomber (and especially the Tie shuttle) is that the 2 attack dice are just pitiful, and barely contribute. The A-Wing and the pre-fix Tie Advanced had a similar problem, no one really wants to sink points into a ship that can't do decent damage. Contrast with the Interceptor that does 3 damage, and suddenly it's awesome and gets used all the time. Big difference.

But, again, I'm not talking about the ship as a whole (and in fact I even mentioned its potential as a glass cannon kind of ship). The comparison to the bomber is only in durability, nothing more.

I understand, but having 2 agility is about the only thing they have in common. The bomber is slow, can't evade, has poor action economy (requiring target locks), and has trouble shedding stress. So not only is it fragile, it's often also a sitting duck. I just don't think it's a helpful comparison, there are a lot of 2 agility ships in the game, which don't feel nearly as fragile and pathetic as the Bomber. The striker is likely faster, it definitely has some arc dodging capability, and it can evade: something that the t65 and Kihraxz can't do, which is way more useful than focus when you're rolling fewer dice. Also we're yet to see what Light[weight?] Frame does.

You can buy an academy pilot with the points difference. Less than that, if you're comparing Duchess to the Inquisitor instead of Fel. I am not at all convinced that an academy pilot plus a mediocre "ace" is better than a top-tier ace.

It's not about academy pilot, nor is it about replacing Fel in an Imp Aces list. The point is that cheaper ships give you more options when building new lists. PS10 Duchess for 24 points is going to fit in a lot of gaps that are too small for pilots like Fel or Vader.

The most important quality in an Interceptor is really high PS, the fact that the two highest PS ships also have great abilities is almost incidental, if people were able to swap Jax's ability for PS10 instead, then they probably always would.

Err, no, PS 10 is NOT the most important quality. There's a reason why nobody is taking VI Soontir Fel for PS 11, and why the Inquisitor at PS 8 is a default choice in a Palp aces list. The most important quality in an interceptor is action economy. You can deal with somewhat lower PS as long as you have a pile of defensive tokens and maneuvering actions.

Given that we were talking about PTL interceptors, I assumed that having PTL (not VI) was a given. Why else would I discuss a hypothetical situation where people get to switch Jax's ability for PS10, when people can already give Jax PS10 and keep his ability? Obviously it's assumed his EPT is always going to be taken by PTL.

Anyway, you said the ability is what is important, now you're saying it's action economy. Yet you also know full well that they need to move late to be effective, so high PS is important.

Turr Phennir is a much better comparison, because his ability doesn't work with PTL, but gives him enough action economy to forgo PTL and take VI instead for PS9 (exactly like Duchess). He also can't stack tokens (like Duchess). I've used him in loads of games, and he's an excellent ace for the cost (three points cheaper than Jax for PS9).

I got it from the x-wing probability calculator, basic 3 dice versus 2 dice, gives an expected damage of 0.896484375.

Oh, I see, you're doing the complicated version instead of just comparing average values. But you're also presenting a really inaccurate version of the numbers because nobody is rolling unmodified dice in these situations.

A 3-dice turret with focus against Soontir Fel with focus + evade, stealth, autothrusters and Palpatine has literally zero chance of doing damage at range 2-3. At range 1 you get 0.006 average damage. IOW, if you get into range 1 and take your best shot you have less than a 1% chance of accomplishing anything.

A 3-dice turret with focus against Duchess with focus has an expected damage of 1.07, increasing to 1.77 at range 1. IOW, you will consistently hit even if Duchess goes all-in on defense instead of shooting back effectively.

See the difference?

Focusing is not "all in" on defence. A focused 3 dice turret, against Duchess with evade has an expected output of 0.692, which means she could last almost 6 rounds of shooting, without any upgrades (or help from Palpatine *cough*). Assuming she was permitted the courtesy of shooting back (probably shooting first), against something like the Falcon, or a B.wing (which we have already seen is saving its focus for shooting), that would be 7.03 hp of damage she inflicts. That should be more than enough to make her 23 points back (or destroy the b-wing), and that's if she sits at R2 and allows herself to get hit every single turn. If she's also permitted to arc-dodge, then she'll be a very cost effective weapon.

at the very least, these two ships look really cool
are they from Rogue One???

cheers
jah

 Da Kommizzar wrote:
I was walking down the neighborhood when I got approached by a piece of plastic. This piece of plastic asked for me to pass this on to you all.



It hurts the TIE Striker's feelings that everyone is being so mean to it before it has even had a chance to be caressed by the hands of a loving child.

#AToyStory #CelebrateShipIndividuality #NonFelLivesMatter

LOL... i nearly choked on my coffee good sir...

 jah-joshua wrote:
at the very least, these two ships look really cool
are they from Rogue One???

cheers
jah

Supposedly, yes.

Turr Phennir is a much better comparison, because his ability doesn't work with PTL, but gives him enough action economy to forgo PTL and take VI instead for PS9 (exactly like Duchess). He also can't stack tokens (like Duchess). I've used him in loads of games, and he's an excellent ace for the cost (three points cheaper than Jax for PS9).

To be fair, Turr Phennir is also rather like Whisper; his abilities are awesome if he shoots before he gets shot back at (because if he uses it to boost out of arc he won't be); he literally lives and dies by pilot skill.

locarno24 wrote:
To be fair, Turr Phennir is also rather like Whisper; his abilities are awesome if he shoots before he gets shot back at (because if he uses it to boost out of arc he won't be); he literally lives and dies by pilot skill.

Yeah, shooting first is especially important to him. But that's not really why I brought him up.

I brought him up because, unlike most other interceptor pilots, he gets his action economy from his Pilot Ability, rather than his EPT. There is nothing inherently wrong with that (Vader also gets his action economy from his ability), and it allows Turr Phennir to be much cheaper than other interceptors, and keeps his EPT open. Of course, not all abilities are equal (Turr Phennir is clearly not Vader): his extra action is limited to boost/roll, so he can't stack tokens, and he can't boost+focus-fire. Those are pretty big drawbacks, but then you save a pretty big chunk of points. He also has some little advantages over PTL: it's easier for him to dodge completely out of arc (or even out of range) without losing his own shot, and he doesn't get stressed every turn (which is sometimes useful).

The bottom line regarding Turr Phennir is: he's a decent ace, who can get the job done. Maybe not "top-tier", but I think he gives Jax a good run for the title of "2nd best interceptor".

Going back to Duchess, she has quite a lot in common with Turr Phennir. She also gets her action economy from "not PTL", she also (consequently) can't stack tokens. She also has her EPT free, she also doesn't get stressed, and she also probably has some small "quirks" which are situationally advantageous (boosting before moving gives her some tight manoeuvre options that PTL interceptors don't have). Most importantly she saves a truly insane amount of points.

So the conclusion of my argument is: if Turr Phennir with VI and Auto-Thrusters, is a decent ace at 28 points, then Duchess with Adaptability can't be bad at 23 points. Even without access to auto-thrusters, she's still a bargain. And it looks like she will be getting a possible defensive upgrade anyway (whatever Light... Frame is). So I would conjecture that if "Light... Frame" provides a defensive boost that is roughly comparable to Auto-Thrusters, and it cost less than 5 points (quite likely), then Duchess should be at least as good as Turr Phennir. IMO that's pretty damn good.

So I would conjecture that if "Light... Frame" provides a defensive boost that is roughly comparable to Auto-Thrusters, and it cost less than 5 points (quite likely), then Duchess should be at least as good as Turr Phennir. IMO that's pretty damn good.

It looks like 'Lightweight Fridge' (which is what I'm going to call it - saving weight on the beer cooler is clearly key to improving a TIE's agility!) is a situational extra evade die. Taking stealth device and countermeasures as an example, that's probably going to be 3 points.....maybe only 1-2 if the criteria are a bit tighter (which it looks like they are). That's not as good as autothrusters, and the Striker is easier to hit than an interceptor regardless (only native agility 2 and no 'Royal Guard' ability to bolt on a stealth device too), but as noted it is cheap as buggery.

Plus, she is potentially faster in a dead run than a squint - you can, after all, theoretically take engine upgrade too.

But yes, taking her cheap as, with Adaptive Ailerons, Adaptability, and Lightweight Fridge (if it's nice and cheap) puts her in Omega Leader territory. Same hit points, same agility (sort of) but replacing Omega Leader's dice shenanigans and evade token with a free (but optional) advanced sensors boost, PS9, and a third attack die. Sounds like a fair trade.

 Smacks wrote:
I just don't think it's a helpful comparison, there are a lot of 2 agility ships in the game, which don't feel nearly as fragile and pathetic as the Bomber.

There really aren't. The x-wing, for example, feels very fragile despite having an additional HP over the strike and some shields to take crits. The metagame right now is not kind at all to mid-agility ships, you either stack a billion evade dice and modifiers or tons of raw HP regardless of agility. Having mid-level HP and mid-level defense just gets you killed. The only reason I named the bomber specifically is that its all-hull stat line makes it very vulnerable to crits, something the striker is going to have a huge problem with.

Anyway, you said the ability is what is important, now you're saying it's action economy. Yet you also know full well that they need to move late to be effective, so high PS is important.

You're missing the point here. High PS is important, but it functions more as a "this is not viable at all" than a choice with a range of values. "Ace" ships below PS 8 are not viable. Ace ships at PS 8 or above are viable, but once you get to the "don't completely suck" level of PS 8 the value of spending upgrade slots on additional PS is often questionable. And the reason I said that pilot abilities are important before saying that action economy is important is that good ace pilot abilities provide action economy. Soontir Fel's pilot ability gives you action economy directly. Carnor Jax's gives you relative action economy by taking away your opponent's actions. Even aces that don't directly say "get a free action" like Corran or the Inquisitor can be at least roughly translated to "get a free action worth of stuff". Duchess' ability can't. The only thing her pilot ability does is take away your action economy.

Turr Phennir is a much better comparison, because his ability doesn't work with PTL, but gives him enough action economy to forgo PTL and take VI instead for PS9 (exactly like Duchess). He also can't stack tokens (like Duchess). I've used him in loads of games, and he's an excellent ace for the cost (three points cheaper than Jax for PS9).

He's also garbage-tier and unplayable in a competitive environment. If he's your best comparison then Duchess is doomed.

 Peregrine wrote:
The only reason I named the bomber specifically is that its all-hull stat line makes it very vulnerable to crits, something the striker is going to have a huge problem with.

That is true for all ties. It's more pronounced on the bomber, because it tends to get crippled before its hp runs out, so you don't get the full value out of its 6 hp. Also... it still can't evade. By the time smaller ties collect 2 crits, they're probably dead anyway, and "hopefully" paid for themselves, so it's not such an issue.

Even aces that don't directly say "get a free action" like Corran or the Inquisitor can be at least roughly translated to "get a free action worth of stuff". Duchess' ability can't. The only thing her pilot ability does is take away your action economy.

It doesn't matter where the action economy comes from, she unquestionably gets a free actions worth of stuff from adaptive ailerons. Her ability lets her ignore the usual penalty for taking adaptive ailerons, so she's getting something akin to a free boost action every turn (on top of her normal action), for 0 points, and no penalty.

If adaptive ailerons didn't exist and her pilot ability simply read "before you reveal your dial, if you are not stressed, you may make a free boost action", would you still be saying "The only thing her pilot ability does is take away your action economy"? Of course you wouldn't, yet the result is almost exactly the same, and it's an amazing thing to have for zero points.

He's also garbage-tier and unplayable in a competitive environment. If he's your best comparison then Duchess is doomed.

If you're just going to label anything that's not Soontir Fel "garbage-tier", then I don't see any point in discussing this with you. Even if Soontir Fel and Quiz really are the only ships worth taking, you can still only take them once, ergo there is a reason to discuss "slightly less good" ships.

VI Turr Phennir is a fething PS9 interceptor, with built in action economy, who will tear through 90% of the ships in the game. If that's your standard for unplayable, then what's your standard for good? Triple Jumpmasters or go home? If that really is the case, then maybe x-wing just isn't worth playing at a competitive level.

 Smacks wrote:
That is true for all ties. It's more pronounced on the bomber, because it tends to get crippled before its hp runs out, so you don't get the full value out of its 6 hp. Also... it still can't evade. By the time smaller ties collect 2 crits, they're probably dead anyway, and "hopefully" paid for themselves, so it's not such an issue.

But it isn't true for all TIEs. Defenders have tons of durability, interceptors are god-mode invulnerable, etc. Really the only other TIE that has durability problems is the humble TIE fighter, and in that case you're expecting them to be fragile because they're 12-15 points each. I expect the basic striker to be at least a decent ship for the same reason, it's the cheapest possible 3-dice gun so having low durability is fine. But that doesn't apply to a 20-25+ point "ace".

It doesn't matter where the action economy comes from, she unquestionably gets a free actions worth of stuff from adaptive ailerons. Her ability lets her ignore the usual penalty for taking adaptive ailerons, so she's getting something akin to a free boost action every turn (on top of her normal action), for 0 points, and no penalty.

If adaptive ailerons didn't exist and her pilot ability simply read "before you reveal your dial, if you are not stressed, you may make a free boost action", would you still be saying "The only thing her pilot ability does is take away your action economy"? Of course you wouldn't, yet the result is almost exactly the same, and it's an amazing thing to have for zero points.

I really don't see what your point is. Adaptive ailerons does exist, so why should we consider a hypothetical where it doesn't? Duchess' pilot ability gives you no action economy compared to the PS 1 generic of her ship, and I don't think any reasonable person is going to claim that the PS 1 generic is a great ace. The only thing Duchess gives you over that PS 1 generic is PS 8 and an EPT that you can't even use for PTL.

If you're just going to label anything that's not Soontir Fel "garbage-tier", then I don't see any point in discussing this with you. Even if Soontir Fel and Quiz really are the only ships worth taking, you can still only take them once, ergo there is a reason to discuss "slightly less good" ships.

Of course Fel and the Inquisitor aren't the only two good ships. There's also Vessery, Whisper, Carnor Jax, and Vader. That's more than enough ships to fill a 100 point list without resorting to garbage like Turr Phennir. And remember, in the standard imperial aces list you're talking a shuttle with Palpatine (because Fel + Palpatine is stupidly broken) so the only question is which single ace you take along with Fel. There are decent arguments for Carnor Jax or Vader as an alternative to the Inquisitor. There are decent arguments for taking a list built around Whisper (with Omega Leader as the second ace). There is no viable argument for Turr Phennir.

VI Turr Phennir is a fething PS9 interceptor, with built in action economy, who will tear through 90% of the ships in the game.

A PS 9 interceptor with weak action economy. You only get two actions (vs. three for Fel and effectively three or more for Jax) and you're limited to a boost or barrel roll for your second action so you can't stack defensive tokens for the turns when you inevitably fail to arc dodge. If you fail to get a target in arc to shoot at (with only one action to get you there) you don't get your second action at all. If you get shot at before you get to shoot you don't get to attempt to use your second action for defense, which puts you in the awkward position of having to take initiative against other PS 9 aces (and god help you if you have to face something at PS 10+). If you have to face a turret you're no more durable than a PS 1 generic with autothrusters. If you have to use your first action on a boost or barrel roll to get into position you can't modify your dice that turn. I could probably think of more reasons, but that's probably enough.

TL;DR: Turr Phennir is garbage-tier, and if that's your best comparison for Duchess then she will be garbage-tier as well.

If that's your standard for unplayable, then what's your standard for good? Triple Jumpmasters or go home? If that really is the case, then maybe x-wing just isn't worth playing at a competitive level.

Ah yes, the same old "YOUR WAAC YOU DONT HAVE FUN!!!!!!" attitude that is so familiar from 40k. Complaining about how bad it is to only want to play competitive lists/ships doesn't make Duchess good.