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Hey all,

This time around I'm looking for tournament style critique rather than the more casual level play that I was looking for in my other Defender post. One caveat: I don't expect to be able to afford to pick up Palpatine & a shuttle (at least not and have adequate time to practice with it).

List 1 (a little outside the box) :

======================
Vets XXI (Tournament)
======================

100 points
------

The Inquisitor (30)
TIE Advanced Prototype (25), Push the Limit (3), TIE/v1 (1), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Countess Ryad (36)
TIE Defender (34), Push the Limit (3), TIE/x7 (-2), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Colonel Vessery (34)
TIE Defender (35), Veteran Instincts (1), TIE/x7 (-2)

------

View: http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/576537/vets-xxi-tournament-
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For this one, I'm sort of thinking (hoping? ) that the (unexpected?) extra maneuverability of the Inquisitor might make up for the lack of autothrusters. Dropping Vessery to Adaptability is another possibility, but that means missing the Inquisitor's TLs, which is also less than optimal.

List 2 (more traditional) :

==================

99 points

Pilots
------

“Omega Leader” (26)
TIE/fo Fighter (21), Comm Relay (3), Juke (2)

Countess Ryad (36)
TIE Defender (34), Push the Limit (3), TIE/x7 (-2), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Colonel Vessery (37)
TIE Defender (35), Tractor beam (1), Veteran Instincts (1), TIE/D (0)
-------
My main question about this one is whether the initiative bid is worth it (thinking I'd add a Mk II engine to Vessery to open up the red hard turns a bit).

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts and comments

If you're not playing at PS9 or above, the initiative bid is less important. Ultimately, yes, it can help, but "Ryad don't care" and O. Leader isn't the super-jouster a Fel is.

I don't know. I feel like the second list has less punch.

I think Defenders are more of a gimmick factor than anything else... maybe I just haven't seen them flown well.

FWIW the Australian championship match ( https://youtu.be/NftADQVy3bY ) is almost a master class in how Ryad/Vessery/ Palpatine takes down a standard Palp aces list (Soontir/ Inquisitor).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also...in a meta that now includes black market slicer tools, list 1 makes me distinctly nervous.

This might be me doing my chicken little impression thinking the sky is falling, but I kinda think the Inquisitor got well and truly nerfed

I played against the second list (except that Vessery had an Ion Cannon instead of Tractor Beam) this weekend with Moralo + IG88B madness and tabled it. Granted, that's what my list was designed to do - but beware of token-stripping lists like mine.

It sucks that you can't get a Palp Shuttle, because obviously that would be the way to go.

BMST is good, but remember that it's situational, requiring range 1-2, you being stressed, using an action, and rolling a hit/crit. Unless your opponent is bringing BMST en masse, it's not worth being overly concerned about.
If there's one ship with BMST? Focus it down, end the threat if it concerns you that much.

Griff, you mind posting /sketching your list?

And do you think list 1 would've done better?

I ran my vessery /marek/bomber list vs dengar/bosk tonight (admittedly vs a new player w/o the best crew choices - tactician /merc copilot /k-4 was still plenty painful when it hit... though I realized just now I let him use the mango cannon in the auxiliary arc) and tabled him in 2 games. The bus didn’t seem too hard to get behind if I was willing to sacrifice a turn of less-than-ideal shooting ...

I'm also kinda wondering if dropping ptl on Ryad for juke (on both defenders) and losing the mk 2 engines for Autothrusters for Inquisitor might be a better way to go for list 1...

Apostasus wrote:
Griff, you mind posting /sketching your list?

And do you think list 1 would've done better?

I ran my vessery /marek/bomber list vs dengar/bosk tonight (admittedly vs a new player w/o the best crew choices - tactician /merc copilot /k-4 was still plenty painful when it hit... though I realized just now I let him use the mango cannon in the auxiliary arc) and tabled him in 2 games. The bus didn’t seem too hard to get behind if I was willing to sacrifice a turn of less-than-ideal shooting ...

I'm also kinda wondering if dropping ptl on Ryad for juke (on both defenders) and losing the mk 2 engines for Autothrusters for Inquisitor might be a better way to go for list 1...

The list I used is as follows:

Moralo Eval (YV666) - HLC, maneuvering fins, inertial dampeners, bossk, zuckuss, ig-88d

IG-88B (Aggressor) - HLC, Tractor Beam, Autothrusters, Advanced sensors, Glitterstim, Title, Lone wolf

You're correct, the bus is done for if you can get behind it and remain there without being chased off. In the list I used, I hugged the board edges initially, turning in for the first engagements of the game, and firing off dampeners to stay there a little longer and take advantage of Moralo's absurd firing arc. Anyone wanting to get behind Moralo risks getting too close to the board edge for comfort. IG-88 has standoff to utilize lone wolf and attack anyone in moralo's workspace. His maneuverability and survivability complements moralo's lack of both. The list works at pushing damage through your opponent's defenses; I played 2 games against lists with 2+ defenders and was able to shoot first to strip tokens, and then use IG88B's gunner ability shoot again to deal damage, including getting rid of Vessery and Ryad in one turn in each of their respective games. Moralo's build is ridiculous at dealing damage; triggering bossk nearly every time meant my second "gunner" shot was going in with focus and TL, which usually meant 4 damage most of the time, with zuckuss to really push it. The ship carries stress the whole game, and doesn't care. The maneuvering fins actually came in handy a couple of times where I needed a hard-3 to become a bank to avoid a block.

 House Griffith wrote:
BMST is good, but remember that it's situational, requiring range 1-2, you being stressed, using an action, and rolling a hit/crit. Unless your opponent is bringing BMST en masse, it's not worth being overly concerned about.

No, it's something to be very much concerned about for some ships. BMST is absolute death for certain ships, even with only one copy. The Inquisitor only has 2 HP, that's four activations of BMST on average even if you don't hit him with any other damage. And once you get hit with it the first time and are down to your last HP you have to fly really cautiously, pretty much removing your ace from the game to avoid giving up MoV. And god help you if you're facing 2-3 copies, as you will against u-boats.

Agreed. I played three games last night with a single BMST on the board (in my Aggressor) and it killed Fenn Rau, an ARC-170 and Han Solo. I could have killed a Tie S/F but forgot to use it. That is why a Tactician can be a good fit in this list, instead of Bossk. What I found was that rather than take a second broadside, my opponents would let a single point of damage through (through use of focus and evade tokens peppered in their initial rolls)

Some really good players in my group are now very leery of bringing the "standard" inquisitor build. Some think about running him with title+juke.

Advanced Sensors to fire it off in situ rather than after your move can be deadly to an Ace who just dodged out of arc. BMST are rough. really rough.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Some really good players in my group are now very leery of bringing the "standard" inquisitor build. Some think about running him with title+juke.

Advanced Sensors to fire it off in situ rather than after your move can be deadly to an Ace who just dodged out of arc. BMST are rough. really rough.

I think, with this list I'd be tempted to drop the Inquisitor to Valen Rudor with Juke (instead of the Inquisitor with juke) to preserve the option of some extra actions... that (and dropping VI on Vessery) would give me an extra 5 points to play with (and 2 dice + TL should be pretty consistent damage.

As I kinda discovered in a game against Wampa, a Defender can probably stand up to BMST for long enough that it's not so terrible (scary, but not terrifying) so Ryad will probably be okay (and might have the benefit of having her stress taken in the same turn to open up her dial vs. A higher ps BMST).

Yea, with the Slicer Tools, it has had me rethinking a lot of my lists, and will see me running Vader instead of Soontir Fel. I am interested to see how your Defenders do in a tournament. I have been experimenting with them more and more and make stress free lists (except from outside sources), and make sure that the list can shed it's stress without hindering it.

A guy I played against last night ran 2 glaives with Juke. That was enough to slowly but surely do me in. Nothing fancy, but no way to get stress except externally, and he played really smart with his actions.

Apostasus wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Some really good players in my group are now very leery of bringing the "standard" inquisitor build. Some think about running him with title+juke.

Advanced Sensors to fire it off in situ rather than after your move can be deadly to an Ace who just dodged out of arc. BMST are rough. really rough.

I think, with this list I'd be tempted to drop the Inquisitor to Valen Rudor with Juke (instead of the Inquisitor with juke) to preserve the option of some extra actions... that (and dropping VI on Vessery) would give me an extra 5 points to play with (and 2 dice + TL should be pretty consistent damage.

As I kinda discovered in a game against Wampa, a Defender can probably stand up to BMST for long enough that it's not so terrible (scary, but not terrifying) so Ryad will probably be okay (and might have the benefit of having her stress taken in the same turn to open up her dial vs. A higher ps BMST).

I don't think downgrading from the Quis is necessary; if you see BMST on the board, then don't PTL.

That's not only 3 pts you're not using, that's another EPT you didn't take.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
That's not only 3 pts you're not using, that's another EPT you didn't take.

I think it's a viable route, depending on the metagame. If BMSTs are rare then it's worth taking PTL for the majority of games where PTL is far better than any other EPT, and just accepting that you don't get to use it very much when you run into BMSTs. It's something that happens often in X-Wing. For example, if you bid up to PS 4 to counter u-boats you have wasted points against a PS 1 TIE swarm. You just accept that sometimes you're paying for stuff that won't be relevant because you need it the rest of the time. But if BMSTs are common in the meta then taking PTL is a waste, and probably taking the Inquisitor at all is a bad idea since he's not very good without PTL.

I think it's just an opportunity to bring out the Tie f/o that removes stress at the beginning of the combat turn. Sure, high PS ships with BMST will still try to pound you, but those are rather rare, and I think that if you are paying a premium for a high PS and the pilot ability that comes with it, usually you won't sacrifice one of your actions to using BMST. It remains to be seen, of course.

Another list I'm toying with is a double Defender/ D build like this:

====================
Interloper Gunboats
====================

100 points

Pilots
------

Colonel Vessery (36)
TIE Defender (35), Tractor beam (1), Adaptability (0), TIE/D (0)

Glaive Squadron Pilot (36)
TIE Defender (34), Flechette Cannon (2), Adaptability (0), TIE/D (0)

Captain Jonus (28)
TIE Bomber (22), Extra Munitions (2), Plasma Torpedoes (3), Deadeye (1), Long Range Scanners (0)

View: http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/578883/interloper-gunboats-
---------
The idea would be that the Glaive flies wingman for the bomber to get the rerolls (flachette cannon simply because it is a point cheaper than ions but still can add a point of damage ... if it also causes stress, yay, bonus) while Vessery acts more independently (but still, hopefully, getting the free TLs)...

If I can focus on a single target, that's a lot of damage coming through on a ship that may have already lost an evade.

Part of me is thinking about dropping the plasma torps to flachette (still does full damage on a 3 dice attack) and giving the glaive an ion cannon. But that seems like it would be a lot weaker against large ships (one ion doesn’t do it and flachette torps don't stress ships with lots of hull).

Does this seem like a viable option?

Apostasus wrote:
Does this seem like a viable option?

No. Jonus is adding nothing here, and seems to exist for the sole purpose of having a defender/defender/bomber list rather than defender/defender/bomber being good.

 Peregrine wrote:

No. Jonus is adding nothing here...

So the cannon rerolls aren't worth the 3 points to you?

(Jonus) seems to exist for the sole purpose of having a defender/defender/bomber list rather than defender/defender/bomber being good.

What does a good bomber loadout look like to you? If I dump Jonus I was thinking Gamma vet w/ deadeye/ Proton torps/ ion bomb/Munitions/ LRS, but I'm still playing with ideas

Bombers are good in Epic.

That's all I can come up with. Sorry.

Flew a match with the gunboat variety today and was kinda underwhelmed. Putting 1 stress on something doesn't really seem to do much (admittedly the list I was up against - Bossk bus, 2xTLT y-wing and a z-95 - didn't need mamy actions)... I'm pretty sure the way to go is with an ion cannon instead.

And probably not Jonus. Rerolls for the flachette was nice, and his TLs for Vessery were handy, but not game changing. I think I'd be better off with Omega Leader (Ryad & Vessery x7s vs Vessery and Glaive /Ds?)

I do, however, think a pair of Deltas with HLC and Jonus shuttle could be fun. Not tournament worthy most likely , but fun.

Apostasus wrote:
So the cannon rerolls aren't worth the 3 points to you?

It's not 3 points. You're paying way more than that compared to a generic bomber, and you're taking a bomber at all. You're paying 28 points when 26 points will get you Omega Leader, a much better option. And no, the re-roll isn't worth much. Vessery already has a re-roll on all of his shots, so all you're buffing is a single flechette cannon (a bad weapon in the first place).

What does a good bomber loadout look like to you?

Nonexistent. Bombers are bad. The best you can do is get to the level of "maybe not the worst ever", with something like Tomax Bren and infinite crack shot or maybe a cheap Vader suicide ship. But most of the time you aren't going to take a bomber unless you've stubbornly decided "my list must have a bomber" for some reason other than wanting to win games.

For your first list, what if you dropped PTL for Juke? You would still have extra maneuverability, as you'd have the whole dial, and you would have point for Autothrusters. 1 point for initiative isn't terrible, either.

Well, in 2 games today I tried out Vessery/ Glaive (both with ion cannon/ D & crack shot) and a scimitar Squadron shuttle (fleet&systems + Mk II engine) and Vessery (tractor/ D/ adapt) Glaive (ion/D/adapt) Gamma vet (Homing/ deadeye/ LRS/Munitions) (and yes, after the game i realized I was 1 point over on the 2nd build) against a Boba (dengar crew) guri, y-wing (ion turret) list.

Game 1 i got pretty much creamed, in part because I made a couple of bone-headed maneuver errors (forgetting to think about activation order the next round) that pushed me into charging/ jousting at shorter ranges than I should've, unlucky crits and awful evade dice (double focus doesn't help if you roll 3 blanks) and conceded when both Defenders died. (I did kill the y-wing. yay) Also, you should remember that your opponent has inertial dampers.

Game 2 I did better, killing the y-wing and Boba, but (again with the direct hits!) Lost both Defenders again. The Gamma vet still had a missile left, though and I might have pulled it out but I a) forgot that I didn't have the Mk II engine and b) almost forgot the limitation of the LRS. If I had survived 1 more turn it might have won.

But I'm a) being reminded of the limits of the non- x7 Defender and b) seeing the points y'all have made about bombers.

More experiments and results to follow

Three more games today and I'm convinced: the bomber is definitely the weak link in the list. It's fun to run at times, but even with LRS boosting Vessery, it doesn't get the job done (Jonus + 2 Defenders with HLC is intimidating, but also fell way short). And I also remembered how quickly Defenders can get beaten up before the x7 title. As much as I like the gunboat (2x Ds) idea, leaving all my evade tokens in the box hurts.

So now, my question is: do I run a D and an x7, or a pair of x7s? And how to fill out the rest of the list?

For example, Vessery/ Ryad/ Omega Leader could have a tractor and VI on Vessery and a base Omega Leader or 2 x7s and a stealth device (on Omega, probably)

Or do I get more with a list like this:

==========
Epsilon XX
==========

99 points
------

Epsilon Squadron Pilot (15) x 2

Countess Ryad (36)
TIE Defender (34), Push the Limit (3), TIE/x7 (-2), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Colonel Vessery (33)
TIE Defender (35), TIE/x7 (-2)

------
View: http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/580645/epsilon-xx
------

The Epsilons can both act as blockers and drop extra target locks for Vessery (who'll probably get Adaptability... but I'm also considering crack shot, adrenaline rush or lightning reflexes)

What say you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or a Vessery mini swarm:

100 points
------

Colonel Vessery (36)
TIE Defender (35), Juke (2), TIE/x7 (-2), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Black Squadron Pilot (15) x 2
TIE Fighter (14), Crack Shot (1)

Epsilon Squadron Pilot (17) x 2
TIE/fo Fighter (15), Pattern Analyzer (2)

I brought an XXOL list to my FLGS weekly tournament tonight and took first place (a personal best) going undefeated in 3 rounds of swiss.

I had Ryad (36, PTL/ x7/Mk II engine), Vessery (35, Juke/ x7) and Omega Leader (29, Juke/ comm relay/ stealth) at 100 points even.

First game was against a newer player with Hound, N'Dru and z-pirate (homing missiles on hound and pirate, Cluster on N'Dru)... started kinda late because my opponent took a while getting set up and having me clarify rules & game play throughout. I killed the hound with no losses before we went to time (I could've possibly improved my mov by focusing on one of the other ships in the last turn instead of the pup).

2nd game was against Asajj, palob-token thief and manaroo. I lost Vessery but knocked Asajj and Manaroo to half points each. I wound up with 36 points killed to 35 points lost. (I really dislike both Palob and Asajj... throwing stress & tractors is strong).

3rd game was against a pretty standard double U-boat & party bus. My opponent wound up bumping one scout and it goaded me into a bump of my own (Vessery into Ryad who I barrel rolled into the way). Vessery then ate a plasma torp, but my opponent managed some truly awful dice rolls through the game. I killed a scout and beat the buss down past halfway, only losing Vessery.

Despite my less-than-spectacular mov results, I took first place, with my final opponent in 2nd.

After the match i complemented him on his tokens and asked where he got 'em. He mentioned that the were ones his son had won. Turned out I was playing NATHAN EIDE's dad!

My main takeaway from the list was that it was interesting to have Omega Leader survive/ be largely ignored by my opponents. I may have played him a bit too conservatively (being a bit gun-shy from previous outings) but it also didn't feel like he made much impact (especially against all the blasted large ships I ended up facing- there were other lists with only small ships, but I didn't draw them).

I'm not sure if I trust the notion of Vessery/D... I know he wouldn't have lived as long without the focus/ evade from the x7. And I'd have lost the 2nd match if he'd cost only 2 points more...

Have you thought of Vader and two Glace Squadron Pilot's with x7?

I ran this last week and it did pretty good for me.

Vader:
-Title
-Engine Upgrade
-Advanced Targeting Computer
-Lone Wolf

Glaive Squadron Pilot x2:
-X7 Title
-Adaptability

I've actually been thinking about Vader a fair bit... and thb, Ventress makes me really wonder about him.

A few weeks ago I got a lucky hit with flachette missiles on Vader, and even the single stress combined with his lack of green on the Tie advanced dial put him out of the fight for 2-3 rounds. And with Asajj able to just assign stress tokens in the mobile arc... it just seems like a mk 2 engine is almost required

There's still the idea of Vader w/ predator & mk 2 (Same points as adapt & eng upgrade ), but I seem to recall one of the esteemed posters here saying that Vader w/o boost is terrible. That probably won't stopme from messing with it, but...

Maybe my concern is overblown and Asajj will show up less once the shiny factor has worn out, but atm a guy I play against pretty regularly (my 1 point victory! ) doesn't seem to leave home without it

I get you Apostasus. I can understand that, I use Vader quite a bit. But, I am really the only one in my meta that uses ordnance. Most guys aren't willing to dedicate the time and money to collecting all that's needed to make it somewhat effective. I have been playing around with Juke on Vader, and it has made him quite a bit more effective when jousting. I don't always get Juke to go off, but the evade token on the defense after when he gets to shoot has been nice.

I am going to start playing around with Lone Wolf on him, I will let you know how that goes. I haven't really had a problem with stress so far on him. But you are right, the Advanced dial is lacking in the greens department.

Vader with Juke and ATC is a nasty bit of business. Sometimes its just a matter of using the rest of your list to get your target to be where you want it to be.

And that is where the two x7 Glaive Squadron Pilots come in, they do a great job of corralling the enemy. Even though the white K turn can be predictable, not much can keep up with it, and a Focus and Evade token makes them fairly tanky.