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Personally I would argue that each time you gate you get twin linked from vengeful strike. VS says when arriving by DS you get twin linked and gate says to place your models using deep strike rules. To me that's pretty clear. But what do you all think

That your not actually arriving from Deep Strike Reserve with Gate of Infinity but just using it's rules for placing the models, so no twin-linked.

Vengeful Strike doesn't require arriving from Reserves, so I can see it's not quite as clear-cut as it could be.

Personally, I don't think it was meant to interact that way, the Deep Strike rules are just a convenient common method to place units onto the tabletop, and a skill that represents their familiarity with using technological teleporters shouldn't necessarily transfer to being yanked through the warp by Gate of Infinity or Electrodisplacement.

Right but by that same logic then belials no deviation rules wouldn't apply to gating either. Which it does.

You are using the rules for deep striking. Effectively you ARE deepstriking I would argue. Though not from reserves. Which isn't a prerequisite anyway.

Otherwise what am I doing when I gate? There's no name for this deployment then. It simply says arrive using the rules for deep striking. To me the fact that they said deep striking and used those words exactly means it would interact that way. Otherwise why not just say the word arrive but roll for scatter. They didn't say that. They said deep strike. Is it cheesy as hell? Absolutely. But I don't see it as a blatant infraction so i honestly see it interpreted that way.

I hadn't looked at the wording for Belial, and indeed it's the same. If people are using that with Gate then they've no argument against VS. The section of the Deep Strike rules that describes scatter and circle placement is even titled "Arriving by Deep Strike". Obviously we're skipping some aspects of it (i.e. rolling for reserves, having to have been placed in DS Reserves - which is also referred to as "arriving by deep strike"), but it should still apply. So I'm conceding the point, it should work.

I wouldn't say it's cheesy, VS has never really swung the battle for me (though it's fun with no-scatter heavy flamers!).

I doubt it would swing much of anything. Plus you can always take prescience. (That's the right psychic power right?) anyways. It's probably even less pivotal if you saw how cheesy the list I'm using this strategy with. It's definitely going to be putting all my eggs in one basket so to speak. Basically a Belial/draigo termies deathstar. Probably a horrible idea but I'm gonna do it anyway.

Going off-topic now but yes, you're piling that many points into a unit, and you probably aren't going to use it every turn (because you want to get into melee). Just remember that only the DA terminators will benefit - Draigo and other non-DA IC's won't get the rerolls.

Ok this is going to be weird, but where is the Vengeful strike rule? i cant find it in any of my rulebooks.

NVM found it, under terminator armor

Any way to answer OP, no its only on the turn they arrive from deep strike, you cant keep jumping in and out with them. + as already said, you want to get them into close combat to utilize the S8 power fist of doom on things.

Belials ability does not work with gate, the models are not arriving by deep strike as they have already been deployed onto the tar, aka arriving. They are being placed using the rules for DS.

That's the same reason vengeful strike, and hunters from hyperspace a nd a slew of other rules do not work past arrival.

blaktoof wrote:
Belials ability does not work with gate, the models are not arriving by deep strike as they have already been deployed onto the tar, aka arriving. They are being placed using the rules for DS.

That's the same reason vengeful strike, and hunters from hyperspace a nd a slew of other rules do not work past arrival.

Hunters from Hyperspace specifically states arrive from Deep Strike Reserves, so not the same thing. I know that some confuse "Deep Strike Reserves" with any form of Deep Strike, but that is most definitely not the case.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Ok this is going to be weird, but where is the Vengeful strike rule? i cant find it in any of my rulebooks.

NVM found it, under terminator armor

Any way to answer OP, no its only on the turn they arrive from deep strike, you cant keep jumping in and out with them. + as already said, you want to get them into close combat to utilize the S8 power fist of doom on things.

I would say you don't want to get locked into combat personally. And they essentially are jumping in and out. And using deep strike rules when they come back in. Hence why I make this argument.

Wagz86 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Ok this is going to be weird, but where is the Vengeful strike rule? i cant find it in any of my rulebooks.

NVM found it, under terminator armor

Any way to answer OP, no its only on the turn they arrive from deep strike, you cant keep jumping in and out with them. + as already said, you want to get them into close combat to utilize the S8 power fist of doom on things.

I would say you don't want to get locked into combat personally. And they essentially are jumping in and out. And using deep strike rules when they come back in. Hence why I make this argument.

Terminators only have bolters and a heavy weapon, the bolters which are pretty weak all things considering, vs 12 power fist attach, and 3 power sword attack. If you make it through their assault phase, you hit on 4 most of the time, and wound on 2 insta death against most mobs. That's the real benefit of terminators is crushing stuff. The shooting is just so they don't get wailed on the whole time they walk forward .

Haven't found anything in the most recent FAQ drafts but found this. And if this says that tactical precision does indeed activate I would then argue so too does vengeful strike.

Wagz86 wrote:
Haven't found anything in the most recent FAQ drafts but found this. And if this says that tactical precision does indeed activate I would then argue so too does vengeful strike.

That only counts for games at Adepticon, or local games played to those standards.

Right. But couldn't that be example of case law? Basically if one court ruled it one way. That becomes an example of how other courts should rule?

Wagz86 wrote:
Right. But couldn't that be example of case law? Basically if one court ruled it one way. That becomes an example of how other courts should rule?

When it comes to tournament standards, Adepticon and ITC can come up with oppositely-polarised rulings, which can also contradict not just any FAQ GW comes out with, but also any actual rules GW releases (such as Invisibility getting a nerf). As such whilst they're very relevant to any group that has decided to use those tournament rules as their standard, they shouldn't be used as the basis for a ruling on this forum (Tenet #2).

Wagz86 wrote:
Right. But couldn't that be example of case law? Basically if one court ruled it one way. That becomes an example of how other courts should rule?

Not really. The courts have to recognize each others' authority first, and they can be dealing with different standards as well.

For example, case law for city ordinances of New York City does not always work for city ordinances of Los Angeles, except where it coincides with national law. The big difference in this example is that it is reverse to how national law works in that local law has primacy over national law.

 Charistoph wrote:

Wagz86 wrote:
Right. But couldn't that be example of case law? Basically if one court ruled it one way. That becomes an example of how other courts should rule?

Not really. The courts have to recognize each others' authority first, and they can be dealing with different standards as well.

For example, case law for city ordinances of New York City does not always work for city ordinances of Los Angeles, except where it coincides with national law. The big difference in this example is that it is reverse to how national law works in that local law has primacy over national law.

You know your are in deep when you start bringing the law into your 40k discussions

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Wagz86 wrote:
Right. But couldn't that be example of case law? Basically if one court ruled it one way. That becomes an example of how other courts should rule?

Not really. The courts have to recognize each others' authority first, and they can be dealing with different standards as well.

For example, case law for city ordinances of New York City does not always work for city ordinances of Los Angeles, except where it coincides with national law. The big difference in this example is that it is reverse to how national law works in that local law has primacy over national law.

You know your are in deep when you start bringing the law into your 40k discussions

Part of the reason why we are not supposed to use real world examples?

I was going to go with cities from different nations. 40K, though, is the same base ruleset everyone is starting from, which would not apply between nations.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Wagz86 wrote:
Right. But couldn't that be example of case law? Basically if one court ruled it one way. That becomes an example of how other courts should rule?

Not really. The courts have to recognize each others' authority first, and they can be dealing with different standards as well.

For example, case law for city ordinances of New York City does not always work for city ordinances of Los Angeles, except where it coincides with national law. The big difference in this example is that it is reverse to how national law works in that local law has primacy over national law.

You know your are in deep when you start bringing the law into your 40k discussions

Part of the reason why we are not supposed to use real world examples?

I was going to go with cities from different nations. 40K, though, is the same base ruleset everyone is starting from, which would not apply between nations.

Yeah besides i would bet that most people would give you a mad stink eye if you tried to abuse Gates of infinity and vengeful strike You would not make friends.

Meh. I don't really care if people are happy with it or not. If it's not against the rules then too bad. So far I don't see that it is. Sadly I can't really prove one way or the other. However we do have examples of how some people have ruled in my favor at times. That's not empirical but it's at least some support for my interpretations which is what I meant by posting it as case law.

Wagz86 wrote:
Meh. I don't really care if people are happy with it or not. If it's not against the rules then too bad. So far I don't see that it is. Sadly I can't really prove one way or the other. However we do have examples of how some people have ruled in my favor at times. That's not empirical but it's at least some support for my interpretations which is what I meant by posting it as case law.

Im just gonna say this now, and i dont want you to take this the wrong way. But mentality like that, is not going to make you friends in the gaming community and you are going to find that people arnt going to want to play you, and you wont find the hobby very fun.

That said, if this is tournament status which, if you are running terminators in a tournament you are doing it wrong, then gloves off, but if this if FLGS you will find your self ostracized very quickly.

I doubt it would be all that effective even if you could prove that the rules apply that way. Which so far we really can't. It's all interpretations right now. I will say this though. If it's not against the rules and I have definitive proof that it isn't and a player still has a problem with it. Then the problem is with that player not me. I'm not going to adjust my army just because some neck beard whines about it. There's plenty of unfairness in this game to go around. I didn't think it was fair when basically my all genestealer army was ruined when 5th and 6th came out.

I decided I liked terminators and bought all terminators instead (I like themes) turns out terminators are flawed because of a few specific short comings. 1: crappy invulnerable save 2:can't assault same turn 3: lack of mobility. 4: weak guns. 5: no first turn arrival.

So I set about seeing how I could fix these problems. I feel that I found a way. Granted at a hefty points price tag. But it seems like a fun list to play. Mixing DA with GK. Combining Azrael, Belial, Draigo and Stern. Plus a few libbies all in the same squad with a full 10 man termie squad. You'd almost be guaranteed first turn arrival since you'd only have to roll 2+ to get it. No deviation just GOI all around the place and twin linking when you pop back? All with a 3++ across the board with a few 2++ and some FNP?

If gating doesn't work that way with the VS that's not too terrible cause I could just use one of the libbies to get prescience.

But it sounds fun. Would it win? I imagine if it were any good we would have seen it at a tournament repeatedly by now. It's point heavy (which for financial reasons i prefer) and you are putting all your eggs in one basket which most people agree isn't a good idea. But it would be fun and it's unique. It's also my money. If someone wants me to use something else they can feel free to give me another army to play with. Or I'll just not play with that person.

Side question though. Let's pretend I didn't ask about GOI interacting with VS. would you agree that Belials tactical precision interacts with GOI?

but you cant deepstrike turn one, unless GK have some bs that lets them do it.

Its also worth noting that yes, they have a 2+ save, but terminators currently are one of the weakest units in the game right now, and you are gonna be really surprised how quickly they disappear off the board, bolters, even twin-linked, arnt that good. The place you are actually gonna benefit from it is going to be from an assault cannon or plasma canon.

@Backspacehacker The GK specific Nemesis Strike Force allows for its Reserves to roll stating Turn 1. However, since, models not from that Detachment do not have permission to arrive Turn 1, any unit they join would not be able to roll until Turn 2.

 Happyjew wrote:
@Backspacehacker The GK specific Nemesis Strike Force allows for its Reserves to roll stating Turn 1. However, since, models not from that Detachment do not have permission to arrive Turn 1, any unit they join would not be able to roll until Turn 2.

Ok I knew GK had some sort of tom foolery, but yeah if you take DW they are not going in until turn 2

I don't know if that's true. If the terminators from DW join draigo then they get to deploy with him. even if that's not the case I could always use GK termies instead and just add belial to that. They'd lose VS which ends that argument. But then I'd still have to argue that belial means that GOI doesn't deviate. Not terribly a big fan of GK termies even though they have 2 wounds. But they could work. Yes I'm aware of termies weaknesses I didn't get them because they are awesome I got them because they are point heavy versus their cost in dollars. I don't invest money in this game any more not since 4th I like high point cost low dollar cost armies. For instance my next list will probably be all dreadnaughts

Gk paladins have W2, NOT the troops variety.

If draigo joins DW it's not a GK unit any longer. And even if it were adding non-detachment units to a detachment seems to make it lose all those bonuses.

Wagz86 wrote:
I don't know if that's true. If the terminators from DW join draigo then they get to deploy with him. even if that's not the case I could always use GK termies instead and just add belial to that. They'd lose VS which ends that argument. But then I'd still have to argue that belial means that GOI doesn't deviate. Not terribly a big fan of GK termies even though they have 2 wounds. But they could work. Yes I'm aware of termies weaknesses I didn't get them because they are awesome I got them because they are point heavy versus their cost in dollars. I don't invest money in this game any more not since 4th I like high point cost low dollar cost armies. For instance my next list will probably be all dreadnaughts

Units and ICs cannot benefit from each others' rules by default. The Draft FAQs make this even more confusing with things like "the unit can benefit, but not the IC", which could be translated as "the IC can benefit, but not the unit" as well, even after saying they do not work at all in others.

Even under my standards of how the system works (and not the Draft FAQs contradictory nonsense), the GK IC would not be operating as his own unit when joined to a DW Terminator Squad for Deep Strike.

I don't have my codex in front of me at the moment but I'll definitely take your word for it

So does that mean even the secondary option of taking GK termies with belial added still doesn't benefit?