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Oh hey, we finally got a way to field ad mech as a whole army like it should have been all along. Except unlike every other army that gets command benefits we actually lose ours in order to do it and instead get IWD on one vehicle. (Unless you're playing a 4000 point game.) Apparently being able to actually construct an army list is our command benefit. Thanks GW for once again reassuring us you have no idea how to write rules.
This could have fixed ad mech. All they had to do was give it even middling command benefits, like keeping the scout and crusader from the skitarii maniple, and maybe army wide doctrines or canticles so your army doesn't have two totally unrelated army wide rules. Without requiring you to field max everything, including 3 knights, to do it.

So close, yet so horribly flawed.

Yes, the detachment is weak, and for some reason we have no way of taking Kataphron Destroyers.

No its a blessing.

The WD free stuff everywhere is an abomination that should never have existed. This is the formation that should have been printed instead.

 Verviedi wrote:
Yes, the detachment is weak, and for some reason we have no way of taking Kataphron Destroyers.

Uh, yeah...you can.

Grand Convocation != Conclave Acquisitorius.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oldzoggy wrote:
No its a blessing.

The WD free stuff everywhere is an abomination that should never have existed. This is the formation that should have been printed instead.

Ehhh...
They both have their place. The WD formation is extremely restrictive in terms of the Skitarii and Knight side. The Conclave Acquisitorius(Cawl's signature formation) is more restrictive on the Cult Mechanicus side and the big friggin' hell Detachment(Grand Convocation) is just as restrictive.

You have to take six Fast Attack choices in order to get the Noospheric Choir(all units from the Detachment get Canticles) bit.

What Fast Attack choices exist across Cult, Skitarii, and Imperial Knights?

It isn't the restrictiveness that makes the WD one bad. Its having 500+ points of free stuff, in the only simple "one click " detachment for the allied admech force.
Glad those players do not need to use it any more in detachment restricting environments if they do not want to .

 oldzoggy wrote:
It isn't the restrictiveness that makes the WD one bad its the 500+ points of free stuff.

You realize that the "free stuff" amounts to:
-Vehicle/weapon upgrades on the single unit of up to 3 Onagers(Ballistarii and Dragoons can't take vehicle upgrades)
-Weapon upgrades on the Ballistarii/Dragoons(you can only take ONE of either type)
-Weapon upgrades on the Knight(You're taking an Oathsworn Detachment, so no Relic weapons/gear)
-Weapon upgrades on the single unit of Skitarii Rangers and single unit of Skitarii Vanguard
-Single wargear upgrade for those two units(Omnispex or Data-Tether...which why would you take the Data-Tether since the vehicles come with one as standard and the effects do not stack?)
-Wargear upgrades for the two Skitarii Alphas and the Ruststalker Princeps and Infiltrator Princeps
-(previously) Relics and Wargear for the Tech-Priest Dominus you have to take for the Cult Mechanicus Detachment
-Carapace and Phosphor weapons if you take any Kastelan Robots and the gear for the accompanying Datasmiths
-'Secondary' weapons(Hydraulic Claw and Cognis Flamers)

War Convocation is basically the only time I will ever consider running Plasma Calivers, seeing as how they're 30 flipping points each. Let's not pretend that the "500 points of free stuff" isn't simply because of the ridiculous points cost paid by Skitarii for their weapon/wargear options.

Hey you are totally allowed to love your free stuff, or be of the opinion that it is fair in an environment of other free stuff armies.

I just feel that free stuff formations are a horrible design mechanism and I am glad that it is no longer the default option to run them in semi casual events that only allow a limited number of detachments.

Let's not pretend that the "500 points of free stuff" isn't simply because of the ridiculous points cost paid by Skitarii for their weapon/wargear options.

By that logic Orks need one too in some fashion, considering they still pay 20+ points for a Plasma Pistol on BS2 models.

Free ork tellyporta blastas for every one

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Let's not pretend that the "500 points of free stuff" isn't simply because of the ridiculous points cost paid by Skitarii for their weapon/wargear options.

By that logic Orks need one too in some fashion, considering they still pay 20+ points for a Plasma Pistol on BS2 models.

Orks, like Skitarii and Guard, need to stop paying Marine prices for upgrades to their heroes.


In any regards, Kustom Mega-Sluggas are 10 pts not 20.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Hey you are totally allowed to love your free stuff, or be of the opinion that it is fair in an environment of other free stuff armies.

I just feel that free stuff formations are a horrible design mechanism and I am glad that it is no longer the default option to run them in semi casual events that only allow a limited number of detachments.

I feel like you're intentionally missing the point in order to complain about "free stuff".

Yes, the War Convocation gets free upgrades. In exchange for those free upgrades, you're forced to take what amounts to a "prebuilt Detachment"(the Skitarii Battle Maniple) to bulk out the numbers for your army.

It's just like the complaints about the free Dedicated Transports in Gladius. Nobody complains about DBCs in a Talon Strike Force, just the Gladius where they aren't having to pay for Dedicated Transports for the "tax" units of the Detachment.

Aren't skitarii the ones who can get +3BS on every unit if they wanted to ?
Being forces to ahere to a combintion of units is no excuse at all for free stuff it breaks the game on a fundamental lv, and we have tournament results to back it up.

It's just like the complaints about the free Dedicated Transports in Gladius. Nobody complains about DBCs in a Talon Strike Force, just the Gladius where they aren't having to pay for Dedicated Transports for the "tax" units of the Detachment.

I and many other players do complain about these other abominations, they are just as bad. These horror shows even convinced reecius that a 1850 game is no longer a 1800 pt game but a 2250 + pt game on tournament lv.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Aren't skitarii the ones who can get +3BS on every unit if they wanted to ?

Yep.

It lasts until the start of your next turn, and it doesn't affect Overwatch.

Chart basically goes:
+3/-2
+2/-1
+1

There's one for WS and one for BS, and each can only be used once per game(barring the Skitarii War Cohort Formation[3x Skitarii Battle Maniples, the Formation used in a War Convocation] and their Detachment, the Skitarii Maniple).

Being forces to ahere to a combintion of units is no excuse at all for free stuff it breaks the game on a fundamental lv, and we have tournament results to back it up.

Yes, it's totally the Rangers and Vanguard getting free triple fire Plasma Guns that don't Get Hot breaking the game, not the Knight with Stealth and Shrouded.

Tournament results don't mean jack without context. You can look at them and interpret whatever you want.

It's just like the complaints about the free Dedicated Transports in Gladius. Nobody complains about DBCs in a Talon Strike Force, just the Gladius where they aren't having to pay for Dedicated Transports for the "tax" units of the Detachment.

I and many other players do complain about these other abominations, they are just as bad. These horror shows even convinced reecius that a 1850 game is no longer a 1800 pt game but a 2250 + pt game on tournament lv.

Oh well, if it convinced Reecius

So why would a BS 6 - 4 unit pay less for ranged weapons than a space marine would ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Na tournament list tell us a lot, actually. They show us what builds are on the top of the power curve and guess what. SM free stuff + ADmech free stuff do surprisingly well. To the point that you really can't field those detachments in a casual game without fielding a cut-throat tournament army.

Because ballistic skill isn't all that matters. Plasma Calivers are overpriced for these reasons.

1. Skitarii have less durability than Marines, on a weapon with a short range and increased chance of getting hot.

2. Skitarii have no delivery system. They have to walk to within that 18" range. Marines can sit in a Rhino and shoot out of it.

3. A Plasma Caliver has the same cost as adding three more Vanguard to the unit. You're sacrificing incredibly good weapons and more durability, for that plasma caliver.

 oldzoggy wrote:
So why would a BS 6 - 4 unit pay less for ranged weapons than a space marine would ?

Do you understand what "Until the start of your next turn" means?

I use Protector Imperative Alpha, and now I have +3 BS and -2 WS.
I'm now at WS1 across the board, BS7 across the board. To get maximum usage out of this, you're going to be within 15"-18" of my Skitarii Rangers/Vanguard and much closer to my Sicarian(my "assault" units).

If you get any charges in, I'm boned because hey. I'm now WS1 and that does diddly for my Overwatch.


But hey, let's compare.

Plasma Gun--24" S7 AP2 Rapid Fire, Gets Hot 15 points
Plasma Caliver--18" S7 AP2 Assault 3, Gets Hot 30 points

One of those comes on a T4 3+ model. The other comes on a T3 4+ model with a 6+ FNP(which is basically always negated).

Na tournament list tell us a lot, actually. They show us what builds are on the top of the power curve and guess what. SM free stuff + ADmech free stuff do surprisingly well. To the point that you really can't field those detachments in a casual game without fielding a cut-throat tournament army.

Realistically, it tells us that tournaments need to stop screwing with the rules of the actual game and focus on trying to encourage players communicating.

And if you're really trying to argue that someone can't field those Detachments in a "casual game" without fielding some kind of high end tournament army, you're delusional.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
Yes, the detachment is weak, and for some reason we have no way of taking Kataphron Destroyers.

Uh, yeah...you can.

Grand Convocation != Conclave Acquisitorius.

Oops, got confused.

 Kanluwen wrote:

And if you're really trying to argue that someone can't field those Detachments in a "casual game" without fielding some kind of high end tournament army, you're delusional.

YES THIS ^ : )

Is my entire point. Free transport units / unit upgrade detachments are the worst thing that has ever happened to 40k in the last years and have noting to do in a normal non apocalypse style casual game.
They poop all over the entire concept of points and balance in the game making 40k essentially nearly as pointless as AoS used to be a while ago. Fielding 500+ points more than your opponent isn't casual play.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Doesn't your entire army also have scout ?

Yes, they can Scout when taken as part of a Battle Maniple or Maniple.

However they cannot Outflank as a result of being granted Scout from this.

I am quite sure that your Bs6 scouting multi shot plasma gun, with cover reducing options is a steal compared to regular plasma guns used in most armies.

...lol?

"Oh man, your BS4-7 scouting Plasma Gun that fires 3 shots at 18 inches and can Ignore (a single point of!) Cover is a steal compared to what is basically the exact same Plasma Gun at half the price!".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

And if you're really trying to argue that someone can't field those Detachments in a "casual game" without fielding some kind of high end tournament army, you're delusional.

YES THIS ^ : )

Is my entire point. Free transport units / unit upgrade detachments are the worst thing that has ever happened to 40k in the last years and have noting to do in a normal non apocalypse style casual game.
They poop all over the entire concept of points and balance in the game making 40k essentially nearly as pointless as AoS used to be a while ago. Fielding 500+ points more than your opponent isn't casual play.

You do understand that to get "500+ points more", you're basically just tacking random crap on all over the place right?

Skitarii Rangers and Skitarii Vanguard--180 points "free"(if taking 6 free Plasma Calivers) for both squads, another 20 points "free" for an Omnispex for both squads. Let's say 100 points on the Alphas(Conversion Field, Digital Weapons, Arc Pistols, and Arc Mauls). We'll tack on an extra 25 for the Skull of Nikola and 20 for Pater Radium(one Relic for each squad's Alphas).

That's 345 points of me just running through and randomly throwing crap into a squad, whether or not it is worth it.

I could go on, but really I shouldn't have to. You want to complain about "free stuff" formations? You should be whining about poorly pointed upgrades instead.

No I shouldn't that random crap has an effect on the game, if it wouldn't you would not fight this hard for it to defend it.

 oldzoggy wrote:
No I shouldn't that random crap has an effect on the game, if it wouldn't you would not fight this hard for it to defend it.

Do you understand the point of me saying "That's 345 points of me just running through and randomly throwing crap into a squad, whether or not it is worth it"?

Out of the list I gave you, I would never run a Ranger Alpha with Digital Weapons, Arc Pistol, and Arc Mauls.
Rangers aren't for getting stuck into CC. Anything taking away a Galvanic Rifle is bad.

Vanguard Alphas tend to get Phosphor Pistols(Additional -1 to Cover Saves and rerolls to Charge distances if you score unsaved Wounds with a S5 AP4 12" weapon), which are half the price of an Arc Pistol. They also tend to get Taser Goads instead of Arc Mauls, again, half the price.

There is literally no reason to ever take an Enhanced Data-Tether(+1 LD while under Doctrina Imperatives) at 5 points, when that same kit is free on all Skitarii vehicles and it doesn't stack with the Broad-Spectrum Data-Tether(vehicle version that has a 6" bubble). The EDT is competing with the Omnispex(-1 point of Cover to the target enemy unit).

Na I do not claim that a squad with random upgrades would be worth its full 345 any player knows hat this is total nonsense. I do however expect that a portion of these upgrades are useful, and I do make the claim that these sort of discount tricks are damaging to the point system. Resulting in stronger mismatches in casual games.

This is why.

Either your units are over costed without upgrades and are priced correctly with upgrades, they are correctly priced and under costed with the upgrades or upgrades are over costed and should be free.

There is no other option and all of these options damage the point system. Except perhaps the last one, but you know other armies do pay for their upgrades, and to be fair I doubt if it is the first one since admech and skitarii units certainly do not seem to be over costed compared to their older codex equivalents.

Things are even more clear when it involves rhino's but, the principle is the same with free upgrades.

The War Convocation is just a formation used to sell models that are under performing. GW has always said they are a model company not a game company.

If you want balanced tournaments they should only allow CADs and I would go so far as to say disallow allied detachments.

Casual games are meant to be fun and bring wacky stuff, dont play against TFG is he is bringing the latest cheese.

Obviously this is just my opinion

LRBT are overpriced so I should be able to take 500 points worth for free because otherwise nobody ever takes them. I've never seen rough riders in a game so they are now 0ppm.

Seems like a solid idea for a stable and healthy game.

 Dumah12 wrote:
If you want balanced tournaments they ...

Then you shouldn't be playing 40K.

*edit*

Forgot the

 oldzoggy wrote:
Hey you are totally allowed to love your free stuff, or be of the opinion that it is fair in an environment of other free stuff armies.

I just feel that free stuff formations are a horrible design mechanism and I am glad that it is no longer the default option to run them in semi casual events that only allow a limited number of detachments.

I don't think the grand convocation is BS because it doesn't give a bunch of free gak of the war convocation, I think you misunderstood.
I personally refuse to run the war convocation from WD, with all that free gak it's OP and dumb. So I'm not bitching because it isn't stupidly op with free stuff, I'm bitching because it takes away your armies very balanced and fair army wide rules like scout for skitarii. And only fixes the doctrine/canticles issue if you play a 4000 point game. All just to be able to field a basic army how it should have always been.

The choices shouldn't be either a bunch of free stuff or less than your armies base benefits in order to build a proper ad mech force.

Side note, There are only 2 formations out of dozens in the game that give free points, but people like to pretend that's every formation. There are far more well designed formations than bad ones, this one is just awful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And no, our entire army doesn't have scout, because it's not treated as an entire army, its two separate factions for no reason so only half have scout, unless you use the formation that lets you build them as one army, in which case you lose scout entirely in exchange for nothing. Which is the problem.

Cult Mech can now finally build what's essentially a cad, which they couldn't do otherwise because of the dumb two-faction thing forcing you to take two armies to play an ad mech force.
...Except in order to take our cad we lose our army wide special rules (scout/crusader for skitarii and 2 cantacles for cult mech)
and we don't get obsec.

If the Marine book said your only choice was taking a "marine cad" who's rules was "you lose army wide special rules and unlike other cads do not get objective secure" that'd be pretty gak wouldn't it? Well that's what we have here.

@Danny: you hit the nail on the head with the last post. Most people don't want free upgrades for a combined mechanicus army, we just want a competent army list. Instead, we got a list that only highlights the problems. Lack of stuff in general. The list gives us IWND on vehicles and POTMS when a general is within 6". We have 4 vehiclestypes in the list in total, and of those vehicles 2 of them are sentinel equivalents with either a single TL autocannon, or are melee focused. POTMS doesn't help the knights at all, so only IWND will be given to them. All it buffs are the onagers, giving them essentially splitfire. All for the low low price of less mobility in an already foot slogging list, and not being able to use canticles more than once.

Oh, did we mention that the last thing we got would have done the same thing for skitarii? Yea, we got the enginseer in imperial agents, and he would have been awesome! If he actually worked in a cult list that is. GW just copy pasted the rules from astra militarum into the codex, so if you just take him as skitarii he will be of absolutely no use as he can only give POTMS to units from imperial guard! Guess how many Astra militarum tanks there are in skitarii?

Ugh GW what are you doing? seriously, this list would have been awesome if they had IG stuff with everything else at least, but now it's worse than bringing the detachments from the two codex's.

If you ask me I don't think you should get special bonuses at all for taking a standard army. Scout? Canticle modifiers? Its all bonus stuff that you should be glad you get. Again, just my opinion, but it seems like either way you're spoiled with decurions.

And don't say your army 'needs' such and such to function properly because as you can see, you're preaching to the ork choir in this thread.

*shrug*

 Don Savik wrote:
If you ask me I don't think you should get special bonuses at all for taking a standard army. Scout? Canticle modifiers? Its all bonus stuff that you should be glad you get. Again, just my opinion, but it seems like either way you're spoiled with decurions.

And don't say your army 'needs' such and such to function properly because as you can see, you're preaching to the ork choir in this thread.

*shrug*

for the sake of being brief, lets look at the scout part.

look, I play orks too, and you know what? They can usually get across the board in a turn after moving, flat outing and so forth. AV 10 is paper thin, but it may as well be a 2+ if it at least saves a few armor 4+ guys from a heavy bolter or two. Sure, explosions hurt orks, but a few vehicles get across to the enemy lines most of the time unless your playing the cheesiest of tau/eldar. and hey, if you dont wanna take a transport, no problem. You can get up to 30 toughness 4 guys in a mob while giving them ard armour, 5+ FNP and a kustom force field to block for you and absorb casualties. If you wanna go balls to the wall you can take a battlewagon and have even heavier armor between you and your opponent guns, while also having people with a 5+ FNP and the tank a 5+ invuln.

now, you ask, what does skitarii get?

a T3, 4+ armour save dude with a 6+ fnp. that seems close enough to a mob of boys yes? it's got good armor, it has an extra save, what's the big deal? well, I don't know about other admech players, but there seems to be an aweful lot of Ap4 weapons that are str 6 and above in the meta. Without cover, they can wipe out a skitarii squad fairly easily. now, how do we get this squishy squad across the field? Well, we don't have a transport, we don't have stealth and we don't have a good invuln giver in both armies. What is the only boon we get? if we take the skitarii maniples, scout. we get an extra 6 inches to walk across the field to get into bolter range at least before the game begins. that's it. Now, as an army whose squads max out at 10 guys, they can get destroyed or rendered ineffectively still fairly easily even with scout. Take that away and now what? We lose that precious few inches of movement that could make or break the game for us. it renders a whole troop choice useless fairly effectively because of the short range, and makes it harder to justify bringing those really nice guns that make the codex a threat.

so, with the way codex skitarii is built, yes, these special bonuses are needed when we don't have those special ways of avoiding getting hurt.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

And if you're really trying to argue that someone can't field those Detachments in a "casual game" without fielding some kind of high end tournament army, you're delusional.

YES THIS ^ : )

Is my entire point. Free transport units / unit upgrade detachments are the worst thing that has ever happened to 40k in the last years and have noting to do in a normal non apocalypse style casual game.
They poop all over the entire concept of points and balance in the game making 40k essentially nearly as pointless as AoS used to be a while ago. Fielding 500+ points more than your opponent isn't casual play.

For the record, EVERY formation gives you free points, the gladius and WarCon are just the most obvious about it. If you think that charging out of no scatter deepstrike, shooting twice in a turn, giving every unit obsec, or increasing multiple units ballistic isn't actually worth anything tangible then I'm sure you wouldn't mind if my grav centurions shot 47 times per turn with a 36" move right? Since that's not 'free points'?

Hey, I'd rather take T4 across the board and a second use on all my canticles as a bonus than free upgrades. Since it's not free points, that should be ok, right?